Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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vivek_ahuja
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby vivek_ahuja » 07 Sep 2020 00:36

Karan M wrote:Because we don't have the subsystems! Where are the engines? Where is the proven seeker? Where are the multiple trials for both? That is the part we have to complete.


Just curious: what made the engines used for the TD Nirbhay very unique? I was under the impression that we purchased/used some Russian engines for this missile. Is that correct?

If so, were these experimental engines or something the Russians use regularly?

For the sake of argument: if these were not hand-made engines catering specifically to the TD work, could we not purchase a block of them (a small couple hundred, say) and arm a Regiment of Mk-1 Nirbhay while the large-scale production-capatible engine matures down the line?

For that matter, did I miss a comment from you about what engine is now proposed to replace the existing engine? Edit: Please ignore this one. I answered this with some google searching myself. More below.

Same question above for the sensors/seekers: is the argument here that the seekers used for the TD would not have allowed the Nirbhay to perform delicate maneuvers on its path to target (terrain mapping)? Or are we talking about the target seekers in the terminal phase of the flight? If the latter, then what would make a Brahmos terminal seeker unsuited for a Mk-1 Nirbhay terminal seeker? Also, aren't the terrain mapping sensors are matured from the Brahmos program?

Finally, if the above is all taken exactly as you describe, what Technology was proven with the Nirbhay? The integration of the various systems with an airframe? If that is the case, will we not require now a whole new test program to validate everything again (except airframe, possibly)?
Last edited by vivek_ahuja on 07 Sep 2020 00:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby vivek_ahuja » 07 Sep 2020 00:41

Regarding engines, it looks like the following is indeed expected for the Nirbhay/ITCM:

Wiki:
GTRE is developing a new 4.25 kN thrust turbofan engine to power Nirbhay Cruise missile and future UAV, Long range AshM cruise missile systems. GTRE is working fast to add test capabilities and infrastructure to test the Manik engine.


What do we know about the status of this engine? Is this one in a stable/mature state or something that could prove to be achilles heel of the entire project like the original LCA engine fiasco from two decades ago?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 07 Sep 2020 02:01

vivek_ahuja wrote:
Karan M wrote:Because we don't have the subsystems! Where are the engines? Where is the proven seeker? Where are the multiple trials for both? That is the part we have to complete.


Just curious: what made the engines used for the TD Nirbhay very unique? I was under the impression that we purchased/used some Russian engines for this missile. Is that correct?

If so, were these experimental engines or something the Russians use regularly?

For the sake of argument: if these were not hand-made engines catering specifically to the TD work, could we not purchase a block of them (a small couple hundred, say) and arm a Regiment of Mk-1 Nirbhay while the large-scale production-capatible engine matures down the line?


This is all provided the Russians agree to sell us stuff, and the costs involved. Its not exactly a secret by now we are running short of money. You can easily see that we can't always afford both - buy out expensive TOT and also develop our own program. The other aspect is whether they will even agree to sell it to us. An engine for a CM program is a strategic technology and a successful Nirbhay means fewer Brahmos, which program has been a gold-mine for Russia. Also, means that all the Uran and other sales to India are at risk.

Same question above for the sensors/seekers: is the argument here that the seekers used for the TD would not have allowed the Nirbhay to perform delicate maneuvers on its path to target (terrain mapping)? Or are we talking about the target seekers in the terminal phase of the flight? If the latter, then what would make a Brahmos terminal seeker unsuited for a Mk-1 Nirbhay terminal seeker? Also, aren't the terrain mapping sensors are matured from the Brahmos program?


I am speaking of the terminal seeker. The seeker on a Nirbhay or a LR Brahmos >> seeker on today's Brahmos. Because of the time differential. If you arrive to the target slower - esp. a moving one, then it moves farther away, you need a higher power seeker capable of scanning a much larger volume. We really don't do terrain mapping on our programs - the need for DSMAC has gone away w/advanced GPS + INS and radalts, these can allow you to do waypoint navigation fairly well, per a stored navigation program which takes into account the terrain en route to the target.

Finally, if the above is all taken exactly as you describe, what Technology was proven with the Nirbhay? The integration of the various systems with an airframe? If that is the case, will we not require now a whole new test program to validate everything again (except airframe, possibly)?


Everything that a CM requires for a 650-700 km, bar the seeker & desi engine was proven w/Nirbhay. The last Nirbhay trial saw a complex mission profile of 15 waypoints and a sustained run at very low levels for 10 minutes (to even prove the low flying capability + the anti-ship mission). The new engine would add more range, some aero tweaking (common) plus the seeker would be evaluated in a range of modes.
Remember with Brahmos we already have a baseline advanced design up and running w/imaging capability.

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... s/1796400/
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 440626.cms
http://brahmos.com/pressRelease.php?id=55

I suspect the new Nirbhay seeker (also to be used for true extended range Brahmos, a common design) will be far higher power with a greater scan capability.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 07 Sep 2020 02:04

vivek_ahuja wrote:Regarding engines, it looks like the following is indeed expected for the Nirbhay/ITCM:

Wiki:
GTRE is developing a new 4.25 kN thrust turbofan engine to power Nirbhay Cruise missile and future UAV, Long range AshM cruise missile systems. GTRE is working fast to add test capabilities and infrastructure to test the Manik engine.


What do we know about the status of this engine? Is this one in a stable/mature state or something that could prove to be achilles heel of the entire project like the original LCA engine fiasco from two decades ago?


From what we know so far, fingers crossed, the program has progressed reasonably well, and a first test was planned this year before the Chinese virus came across and the lockdowns began. I expect all our weapons programs to have been pushed back by around 6months to a year.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prasad » 07 Sep 2020 11:55

The recent defence expo had a video showing the Nirbhay seeker. X-band and apparently works very well.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sum » 07 Sep 2020 12:20

Is there any link to this video online, saar?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Raghunathgb » 07 Sep 2020 12:33

Breaking news
https://twitter.com/rajnathsingh/status ... 44424?s=19

The @DRDO_India has today successfully flight tested the Hypersonic Technology Demontrator Vehicle using the indigenously developed scramjet propulsion system. With this success, all critical technologies are now established to progress to the next phase.

https://twitter.com/rajnathsingh/status ... 64736?s=19

I congratulate to DRDO on this landmark achievement towards realising PM’s vision of Atmanirbhar Bharat. I spoke to the scientists associated with the project and congratulated them on this great achievement. India is proud of them.
Last edited by Raghunathgb on 07 Sep 2020 12:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby gunnvant » 07 Sep 2020 12:35


nam
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 07 Sep 2020 13:38

The real deal. To prevent people from putting up the plastic HSTDV.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Raghunathgb » 07 Sep 2020 13:39

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/130 ... 92640?s=19

Alright, here are some early details from today's @DRDO_India's Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle (HSTDV) test:
1. Speed achieved by the scramjet demonstrator: Mach 6
2. Altitude of flight : 30 km.
3. Duration of flight >22 seconds.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 07 Sep 2020 13:40

The best part is our ground test setup is accurate enough to replicate real world scenarios.

It was mentioned that we were able to ignite and sustain the burning at higher pressure than what was expected in a real test. So our testing infra is pretty good.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kvraghav » 07 Sep 2020 14:00

Raghunathgb wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1302873153383792640?s=19

Alright, here are some early details from today's @DRDO_India's Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle (HSTDV) test:
1. Speed achieved by the scramjet demonstrator: Mach 6
2. Altitude of flight : 30 km.
3. Duration of flight >22 seconds.


This means that even assuming 22 seconds and an average of mach 4, it was flown for 30 KM min.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Venu » 07 Sep 2020 14:37

https://twitter.com/i/status/1302885551528243201

In this video posted by Ananta Krishnan, after 17 secs, the plume has split into two and the one that veered off tangentially seems to be travelling much faster, though I suspect due to the viewing angle. I am sure it cannot be scramjet because it will be ignited above 30k feet. What could it be?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby k prasad » 07 Sep 2020 14:45

That might be the initial booster separation before the scramjet takes over. You'll notice the colour of the plume changes after that point to become more whitish, and the speed significantly increases.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 07 Sep 2020 15:13

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1302874047802273793

JUST IN: India's hypersonic test vehicle that was flight-tested today. This is the ballistic carrier vehicle that gives the hypersonic vehicle (nestled inside) its altitude boost.


Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 07 Sep 2020 15:16

Venu wrote:https://twitter.com/i/status/1302885551528243201

In this video posted by Ananta Krishnan, after 17 secs, the plume has split into two and the one that veered off tangentially seems to be travelling much faster, though I suspect due to the viewing angle. I am sure it cannot be scramjet because it will be ignited above 30k feet. What could it be?


The vehicle is crossing a low altitude cloud and the rocket exhaust is creating a shadow over the cloud


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 07 Sep 2020 15:27

Next round get a Ducted Ramjet + Scramjet prototype in to flight testing.

Make a bigger two staged SFDR, with the Ramjet stage dropping off once Scramjet kicks in..

We will have our boost phase ABM and hypersonic BVR!

It would be fascinating to see what kind of seekers are going to be on these hypersonic missiles. May be datalinks? SARH? Given the speed of flight, the target would not have moved much from the last known position.


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 07 Sep 2020 15:54



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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 07 Sep 2020 16:59

Image
The internal layout in hi-rez.

Question to guru's -

1. What is the military need for such complex air breathing machines when ballistic missiles can leave the atmosphere, travel faster than Mach 6 in the absence of atmospheric friction, and with the help of small thrusters and limited control surfaces perform rentry maneuvers to evade any missile defenses?

2. What terminal guidance mechanisms other than INS+GPS work on these weapons?

3. What is the payload they can carry?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kvraghav » 07 Sep 2020 17:36

tsarkar wrote:The internal layout in hi-rez.

Question to guru's -

1. What is the military need for such complex air breathing machines when ballistic missiles can leave the atmosphere, travel faster than Mach 6 in the absence of atmospheric friction, and with the help of small thrusters and limited control surfaces perform rentry maneuvers to evade any missile defenses?

2. What terminal guidance mechanisms other than INS+GPS work on these weapons?

3. What is the payload they can carry?


Not a guru but will try to answer:

1) The difference is these missiles will burn till the end of destination whereas as ballistic missiles will burn only for 40% of the time and rest is coasting. This will ensure that the air breathing missiles can maneuver till the end and can also support different trajectories like top attack and nape of the earth flying. Example is Brahmos vs Ballistic missiles and Amraam vs Meteor missiles.
2,3) I think these are just engines and will be like a strap-on to the real missiles. We can increase or decrease the number of engines based on the thrust requirements. This is what i saw in the SFDR diagram i think. The guidance might be from the main missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 07 Sep 2020 17:51

The original purpose of achieving escape velocity of 11.2 m/s in the 60's was to avoid the messiness in the atmosphere.

And Brahmos is a relatively expensive way of delivery 200 kg explosives 300 km away compared to this

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-HDKr ... 255B3%255D

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 07 Sep 2020 18:45

Who said that hypersonics scramjets are for evading BMD? You have BM & HGV for it. Scramjet are not worth to be used for A2G.

If BVR's/SAM flying at Mach 4 can make seekers & datalink work, I am sure Mach 6 should be doable as well. Ofcourse Mach 10-15-20 are just science projects.

I am sure developers would know at what height & speed, would the friction overwhelm the seeker. A hypersonic all cruising A2A would be a fabulous asset against large flying targets and BMD.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rsingh » 07 Sep 2020 18:58

BISMILLAH.........less than 2 min from Ambala to Pindi. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby fanne » 07 Sep 2020 19:04

Main use in sfdr, our own meteor.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Philip » 07 Sep 2020 21:35

Fantastic job DRDO! Kudos to all responsible for this signal achievement! We are right there with the superpowers!
Given the hige size of the launcher/ booster/ missile, and one imagines the cost as well,where does the Hypersonic missile
fit in with our strategy? We know that the the Russian Tsirkon is to be fitted to many naval platforms from small warships to subs,plus high alt. aircraft like MIG-31s and in the future strat. bombers and SU-57,s. Is our HyM. going to be a land-based missile,launched like BMos or is it also going to be a multi- platform missile.
Where does BMos- H also fit? In?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 07 Sep 2020 22:15

I am guessing we might create a sub launched ICBM using fist stage rocket and then scramjet delivery vehicle. You will get a compact ICBM.

Lighter, so more ICBM per SSBN..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SSridhar » 07 Sep 2020 22:27

Philip wrote:Where does BMos- H also fit? In?

H-BrahMos will be land, air, surface & sub naval platforms

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudeepj » 07 Sep 2020 22:47

tsarkar wrote:Image
The internal layout in hi-rez.

Question to guru's -

1. What is the military need for such complex air breathing machines when ballistic missiles can leave the atmosphere, travel faster than Mach 6 in the absence of atmospheric friction, and with the help of small thrusters and limited control surfaces perform rentry maneuvers to evade any missile defenses?

2. What terminal guidance mechanisms other than INS+GPS work on these weapons?

3. What is the payload they can carry?


No guru..

In theory, a scramjet/ramjet should actually not be that complex. Its sophisticated and refined, but not complex! It doesnt have as many moving parts that a rocket, esp a liquid fuel rocket does!

It doesnt carry the oxidizer on board, so for the same flight profile, it offers a better payload than a rocket.

It flies lower to the ground, so BMD radars wont catch it. It can do dog-legs etc. (not high g maneuvers!) to avoid ABM systems, to render their fcs solutions obsolete etc. Given China has an ABM program, we will need this in future to preserve deterrence.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JyotiSRC » 07 Sep 2020 23:16

Venu wrote:https://twitter.com/i/status/1302885551528243201

In this video posted by Ananta Krishnan, after 17 secs, the plume has split into two and the one that veered off tangentially seems to be travelling much faster, though I suspect due to the viewing angle. I am sure it cannot be scramjet because it will be ignited above 30k feet. What could it be?


Could the second 'plume' be the shadow of the main plume on the shallow clouds?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Philip » 08 Sep 2020 00:45

Is this part of APJAK's reusable missile programme?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prasad » 08 Sep 2020 00:56

Ballistic missiles fly in a ballistic path, leave the atmosphere, reach a very high altitude and all that. This makes them detectable earlier than a scramjet powered missile which doesn't need to fly above 35km. This means later detection and lesser reaction time for enemy air defense. Theoretically.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Anujan » 08 Sep 2020 01:07

Shri Kalam talked about re-usable hypersonic missiles to deliver flowers of peace. I vaguely remember him talking about hypersonic craft that would deliver their payload and return back to be re-used.

N^3 also wrote a lot in BRF a lot about how hypersonic vehicles can have unpredictable trajectories and are harder to detect.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 08 Sep 2020 01:31

Venu wrote:https://twitter.com/i/status/1302885551528243201

In this video posted by Ananta Krishnan, after 17 secs, the plume has split into two and the one that veered off tangentially seems to be travelling much faster, though I suspect due to the viewing angle. I am sure it cannot be scramjet because it will be ignited above 30k feet. What could it be?


Shadow of the plume on the cloud. The video is too short to show scramjet kicking in.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 08 Sep 2020 01:47

Ulan Batori thread is still there and widely read.

Sarkar, Ballistic reentry is now becoming interceptable. Most nations are moving to hypersonic glide vehicles to avoid that. Usually 49 ballistic and 51 glide.
Next 30 years these will dominate.
I think the glide vehicle can be launched from air too.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 08 Sep 2020 03:11

India successfully tests hypersonic technology demonstration vehicle.

Any contemporary list of cutting-edge military technologies has hypersonic, air-breathing, scramjet vehicles close to the very top. Only three countries — Russia, USA and China — have flown a vehicle in the atmosphere at a hypersonic speed: Six times the speed of sound (Mach 6), or 2 kilometres (km) per second.

On Monday, India entered that elite club when the Defence Research & Development Organisation’s (DRDO’s) experimental Hypersonic Technology Demonstration Vehicle (HSTDV) took off from the APJ Abdul Kalam Launch Complex, off the Odisha coast, and, after separating from its launch vehicle at an altitude of 30 km, flew at Mach 6 for more than 22 seconds.

“The scramjet engine developed by our scientists helped the flight achieve a speed 6 times the speed of sound! Very few countries have such capability today,” tweeted Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

Enormous military advantages are available from hypersonic flight. Most cruise missiles fly today at sub-sonic speeds of 250-300 metres per second. This renders them vulnerable to interception by the enemy’s supersonic fighter jets before they strike their targets. However, a hypersonic cruise missile, flying faster than any fighter, would strike its target well before it can be intercepted. And the kinetic impact of a Mach 6 strike would utterly demolish the target.

Similarly, hypersonic transport aircraft would allow the army to move troops far more quickly to reinforce positions when a threat is detected. If reinforcements were required in Ladakh, troops from Thiruvananthapuram would require just 25 minutes of flying time to reach Leh.

The DRDO has taken almost 20 years to develop and test-fly the HSTDV at its flagship missile laboratory, the Defence R&D Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad. Spearheading this effort was Dr Prahlada Ramarao, who headed DRDL till 2005 and then remained associated with the project from the DRDO headquarters in Delhi.

Prahlada explained that hypersonic flight presented two primary technological challenges. First, the air being rammed into the engine at high supersonic speeds makes it difficult to simultaneously inject fuel and burn the mixture without the flame being extinguished by the air blast.

“It is like lighting a candle in a hurricane and keeping the flame alight. That is why a hypersonic vehicle’s engine is called a ‘supersonic combustion ramjet’, or scramjet engine,” he said.

The second technological challenge is to cool the HSTDV’s skin, which gets red hot due to the friction created by travelling at Mach 6. “We chose materials for the skin that can withstand very high temperatures, and circulate fluid under the skin to carry away the heat,” said Prahlada.

Once ready, the HSTDV performed flawlessly in the Monday test. According to the DRDO, the HSTDV piggybacked on a solid rocket motor to an altitude of 30 km, where it separated from the launch vehicle. There, the air intake opened, hypersonic combustion was initiated and sustained, and the cruise vehicle continued on its programmed flight path at Mach 6 for more than 20 seconds.

“The parameters of launch and cruise vehicle, including the scramjet engine, were monitored by multiple tracking radars, electro-optical systems, and telemetry stations… A ship was also deployed in the Bay of Bengal to monitor the performance during the cruise phase of hypersonic vehicle. All the performance parameters have indicated a resounding success of the mission,” stated a DRDO release.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 08 Sep 2020 05:58

ramana wrote:
Sarkar, Ballistic reentry is now becoming interceptable. Most nations are moving to hypersonic glide vehicles to avoid that. Usually 49 ballistic and 51 glide.
Next 30 years these will dominate.
I think the glide vehicle can be launched from air too.


Could you elaborate on that 51:49 please? That number used to be thrown about because "getting there" (or better) would allow one to work around established bi-lateral treaties. It was never meant to signify some sort of technological limit for current levels of capability. I think the higher end BGV's will be closer to the 2/3 - 1/3 mix.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 08 Sep 2020 06:33

51% ballistic to get to apogee and then 49% for glide. Its one way to describe it
For lofted would be more ballistic and lesser glide.


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