Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2768
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 08 Oct 2020 17:42

tsarkar wrote:So gentlemen, you will lose credibility in any serious discussion if you say Shenya, S Hyena are torpedoes and NAGIN is a towed array sonar.

Just like you will become a laughing stock if you say Bangalore is the capital of Kerala.


And, if you think you now know the password, there could be other tripwires in this post :rotfl:

titash
BRFite
Posts: 390
Joined: 26 Aug 2011 18:44

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby titash » 08 Oct 2020 19:06

tsarkar wrote:Here's a rundown on Indian Light Weight Torpedo development history...


tsarkarji - excellent posts; dispels quite a bit of junk on the internet.

It would appear that the TAL is more or less a reverse engineered A244-S torpedo and gave DRDO some experience in torpedo development. I always wondered why BDL didn't order more than 25 pieces. But the good news is some pieces were exported to Burma and the definitive ALWT is in development. So the SMART payload should ideally cater to ALWT when both enter service over the next 5 years.

if NAGAN was a tech demonstrator, the definitive TAS should be the ALTAS which I thought was undergoing some sort of trials. Hopefully all these mature in relatively quick time

With ASROC style SMART + Varunastra HWT + ALWT LWT weapons, and an effective HMS/TAS combo in HUMSA-NG/ALTAS...looks like we are very well covered for ASW. Need to get these sensors & weapons to sea in numbers

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8011
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nachiket » 08 Oct 2020 20:36

Tsarkar, thanks for those posts and clearing up the confusion. I am guessing the 33kn max speed probably applies to the A244S and the TAL. Wiki entry for A244S mentions the speed between 30 and 39kn. I hope the new ALWT with pump jet propulsion will be designed for a higher speed over 40kn.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14703
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 08 Oct 2020 20:43

Consider the following images ..

Image 1 - Shaurya in a resting position.
Ashokk wrote:Image

Note:
1. Study the Shaurya TEL very carefully. The wheel sets, the shape of the back that supports the launcher\missile, column to support the launcher\missile at rest, the spare tyre and the cabin position on the wheel.
2. The portion of the missile nose that pokes out of the launcher. We will compare this with portion of SMART nose that pokes out of its launcher just before is launched.
3. Also note that Launcher length. If the launcher were fully horizontal, it would fall short of the back of the driver cabin. We will compare this with the SMART launcher to get an idea of the SMART launcher's relative size.

Image 2 - Screen grab of the SMART TEL just before the missile was launched.
Image
ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2l-1D9eR3Y
Note:
1. Study the SMART TEL very carefully in this image and the original video when the controls at the bottom are not visible. Looks very similar to the Shaurya TEL. Similar wheel sets with a similar back supporting the launcher\missile, similar column to support the launcher\missile at rest, similar position of the spare tyre and cabin position.
2. Here too one can observe the SMART missile nose poking out of the launcher. This is while the countdown is on and before the missile is launched i.e. at rest.

By the looks of it, the SMART TEL looks very similar to the Shaurya TEL, the Launcher looks to be of similar length and the missile also looks to be of similar length. In both case the missile is longer than the launcher and pokes out about the same length.

Image 3 - SMART as it clears the launcher
shaun wrote:Image

Note:
1. Study the SMART TEL very carefully and compare it to the image 1 (Shaurya TEL). The SMART TEL looks similar to the Shaurya TEL. Similar wheel sets, etc.
2. The SMART launcher looks to be of a similar length as the Shaurya Launcher (Image 1).

Lastly, we come to the missile dimensions. The fitment of the SMART missile to its launcher (Image 2) looks similar to Shaurya missile to its launcher (Image 1). In both cases, they are long enough for the nose to be poking out of the launcher @ rest and wide enough to fit the launcher nicely.

Also, I did a rough L/D of the SMART missile in image 3 and it came to be about 13. Compare that to the L/D ratio of Shaurya missiles going by its wiki dimensions where the length = 10 m and the diameter = 0.74m. The L/D of Shaurya is = 10/0.74 ~ 13.5 quite close to the SMART's "approx" L/D of the missile in flight.

Therefore we can make the following observations bases on pictorial analysis ...
1. TEL of Shaurya and SMART appear to be similar.
2. Launcher dimensions appear to be similar.
3. Missile external dimensions, both in length and diameter, appear to be similar.

What we can't guess from pictorial analysis ...
1. How the missile is packed "inside" in terms of fuel and its special payload even if the external dimensions are similar.
2. How far the missile will deliver its cargo given that it is a special payload and that there are very real constraints for the payload under considerations.

What we know ...
1. Per wiki, Shaurya can deliver a payload of 1000 kg to between 700-750 km

Pictorial analysis can only take us so far and there is NO substitute to real data. The final picture will only be clear when the official figures are released.

sudeepj
BRFite
Posts: 1836
Joined: 27 Nov 2008 11:25

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sudeepj » 09 Oct 2020 03:47

The naysaying about SMART is absurd. When you have a complete sensor-shooter chain over 600kms, why would it be so hard for a missile to avoid own assets in the area? Yes, civilian assets are sometimes shot down in war. That is just the way it is.

About the number of sonabuoys and the lack of dunking sonar, yes, but they do have a surface radar to catch anyone snorkeling and a capability is being planned for them to carry tens of sonobuoys. So I dont see why even larger and more powerful drone platforms of the future wont have the capability to hunt subs.

Here is a capability being planned:
https://genatomicsasi.com/general-atomi ... a-mission/

In the ASW mission, the MQ-9B can deploy a field of up to 96 sonobuoys and stay on station to monitor them for up 24 hours, sharing data with the ground or other aircraft. Customers have various ideas on employing UAVs in this mission, ranging from using a single UAV to both deploy and monitor the sonobuoy field, or having the UAV deploy the field and hand off monitoring to a manned platform.

The aircraft’s nine hard points can be equipped with a range of sensors and other weapons as well, depending on mission.


Compare the acquisition and operational cost of a full size MPA ($120 million +) vs a drone ($15 million or so).

Drones as sensors + a long range missile as a shooter makes complete sense and is a future ready weapon by DRDO.

V_Raman
BRFite
Posts: 791
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 22:25

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby V_Raman » 09 Oct 2020 04:16

We seem to have decided that IOR denial is too expensive with ships/carriers/MPA and come up with this truly out-of-the-box solution. Our carriers can be used for force projection after this is setup.

This is actually a well written article - https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/06/asia/ind ... index.html

Time for us to start working on domestic sensor drones. If Turkey can do it - why not us?!

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20969
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Philip » 09 Oct 2020 07:18

The Print has given more details such as range,650km, and torpedo descent by parachute once the missile is close to the targeted sub. The LWT torpedo is / is based on the aforementioned ex-Hyena LWT/ALWT DRDO fish !
Described as a gamechanger by the DRDO,a sr.naval officer said that with this stand-off weapon launched from warships and coastal batteries, the IN could saturate the approaches to Gwadar,Karachi and Malacca straits at distances for warships outside torpedo range,though sub detection remained a challenge. A logical improvement would next be to develop an HWT for the missile against surface ships too.

The Hind.Times however gives a crucial detail about warhead,50kg, its range, 20km,up on an earlier range est. in another report.This is a much healthier range for the torpedo to prosecute the sub.

Avarachan
BRFite
Posts: 560
Joined: 04 Jul 2006 21:06

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Avarachan » 09 Oct 2020 07:46

That CNN story adds an interesting detail I've not seen anywhere else: that the missile-carrier of the SMART system travels at Mach 3.
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/10/06/asia ... index.html

The Print story states that SMART can be launched from a warship. https://theprint.in/defence/the-smart-t ... re/518428/

Based on the information released until now, I don't think the SMART is a modified Shaurya ... The Shaurya weighs 6,200 kilograms and travels at Mach 7. I don't see how a missile that heavy could fit into the Indian Navy's current warships without major modifications. (India's new destroyers carry 16 BrahMos missiles, which weigh 3,000 kg each.)

In any event, unless the government releases more information, we can only speculate.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2622
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 Oct 2020 11:37

tsarkar: thanks for the wonderful post about TAL, ALWT etc. Delightful read!

But I don't understand your insistence about the unsuitability of SMART with anything other than SOSUS arrays. I can envisage various scenarios (& others have pointed them out as well):

1) Sea denial of subs from the coast upto 650 Kms. Just like Brahmos enables sea-denial of ships
2) Ability to network with Dorniers, Coast Guard vessels, Dhruvs based from the coast or coast guard vessels, sonobuoys, UAVs (equipped with MAD & sonobuoys) etc

Regarding "shooting down own assets", the Shaurya is a highly accurate weapon. Once the launch command is given, our own assets can move into a safe zone outside the kill-box. You must've seen videos of splashdown of Agni's taken from ships. There is a certain confidence level to be positioned close enough to capture the event on camera.

Numbers required to hunt a sub
Target = 1
SMART missiles = 10 (conservatively)
# of sensors = 100

The # of sensors required to detect a sub is an order of magnitude more than the # of weapons required to down it. Currently, the sensor & shooter is the same platform. This seriously limits the # of platforms that can be deployed & their time-on-station because of cost, space, logistics etc.

With the SMART de-coupling, we can proliferate sensor-platforms cost effectively to cover vast areas of the ocean in a 24x7 mode.

A key advantage of a SMART-like weapon is that it imposes a psychological & logistical penalty on the enemy. Their doctrine & strategy has to change, just by the mere knowledge that a low-cost sensor platform can call in the "big boy" (as another poster mentioned). This imposes a cost on them.

There was a recent article about how "area denial" was an essential component of the Chinese doctrine. Their concept of "winning wars without shooting". Their DF-21 and PL-15 missiles are in accordance with this doctrine. What we've done with SMART is impose a similar cost on them.

nash
BRFite
Posts: 889
Joined: 08 Aug 2008 16:48

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nash » 09 Oct 2020 14:20

Zee news flash: anti radiation missile Rudra m test fire

Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2118
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 09 Oct 2020 14:31

https://twitter.com/rajnathsingh/status ... 9639045121
The New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile (Rudram-1) which is India’s first indigenous anti-radiation missile developed by @DRDO_India for Indian Air Force was tested successfully today at ITR,Balasore. Congratulations to DRDO & other stakeholders for this remarkable achievement.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3980
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 09 Oct 2020 15:44

DRDO is saying it hit the target. Good.

Time to produce it hundreds. The key to hammering Chini radars and SAM.

Hope DRDO test A2A version for AWACS, as well. A passive sensor along with a active one and datalink against AWACS would be perfect. It is after all a bigger Astra.

Not to mention dual pulse test for Astra 2.. For all practical purpose, this is our version of "PL-15"
Last edited by nam on 09 Oct 2020 15:55, edited 2 times in total.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20969
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Philip » 09 Oct 2020 15:49

Excellent news.The Chins mustbe wondering what's next.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12337
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Oct 2020 16:43

nam wrote:DRDO is saying it hit the target. Good.

Time to produce it hundreds. The key to hammering Chini radars and SAM.

Hope DRDO test A2A version for AWACS, as well. A passive sensor along with a active one and datalink against AWACS would be perfect. It is after all a bigger Astra.

Not to mention dual pulse test for Astra 2.. For all practical purpose, this is our version of "PL-15"


or it silently and accidently hit a couple of SAAB 2000's.

Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2118
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 09 Oct 2020 17:02

https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/13 ... 8040459266
Image

There is a NOTAM for 8-10 October 2020 in the above location
If it was RudraM-1 then it was for ~80KM & what could have been the target?

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4047
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 09 Oct 2020 18:01

Lord ., its raining missiles !!.. Not bad for a civilisation that made the original astra !!

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2992
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 09 Oct 2020 18:12

My wish is for a 6 to 10 flower petals carrying MIRV Missile (Agni 6 or whatever be the name) to be soon test fired. We already have information of the 5000 KM range K5 to be test fired in Dec 2021, but the jingo in me says that is so far away.....
Last edited by Vips on 09 Oct 2020 18:13, edited 1 time in total.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14703
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 09 Oct 2020 18:13

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.asp ... 63083&s=09
DRDO successfully flight tests Indigenously Developed Anti Radiation Missile (RUDRAM)
New generation Anti Radiation Missile (RUDRAM) was successfully Flight tested today onto a radiation target located on Wheeler Island off the coast of Odisha. The missile was launched from SU-30 MKI fighter aircraft.

The RUDRAM is first indigenous anti-radiation missile of the country for Indian Air Force (IAF), being developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The missile is integrated on SU-30 MKI fighter aircraft as the launch platform, having capability of varying ranges based on launch conditions. It has INS-GPS navigation with Passive Homing Head for the final attack. The RUDRAM hit the radiation target with pin-point accuracy.

The Passive Homing Head can detect, classify and engage targets over a wide band of frequencies as programmed. The missile is a potent weapon for IAF for Suppression of Enemy Air Defence effectively from large stand-off ranges.

With this, the country has established indigenous capability to develop long range air launched anti-radiation missiles for neutralising enemy Radars, communication sites and other RF emitting targets.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2622
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 Oct 2020 18:32

This is a scorching pace by DRDO!!

TOI report has many interesting nuggets:

1) Range is 100Km to 200 Km!! (the original article said "beyond" 200 Km. It has since been edited to say "upto" 200 Km)
2) Speed of launch can be Mach 0.6 to Mach 2
3) Pre-programmable against a wide band of frequencies
4) Works against a variety of targets: surveillance radars, FCRs, command & control centres, communication hubs, jamming equipment etc
5) Dual pulse rocket motor
6) Launch height can be 500 m to 15 Km
7) Has lock-on-before-launch and lock-on-after-launch modes!

For once, a Rajat Pandit article worth reading

darshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2961
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 04:16

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshan » 09 Oct 2020 18:45

Unfortunately it also shows that there are many across the board who need to be lined up and sent to jail for treason. One doesn't just click and order missile tests.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2768
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 09 Oct 2020 18:57


Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2118
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 09 Oct 2020 19:10

https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/sta ... 7809835008
New generation first indigenous Anti-Radiation Missile RUDRAM developed by @DRDO_India for Indian Air Force successfully flight tested today onto a radiation target located on Wheeler Island off the coast of Odisha. The missile was launched from SU-30 MKI fighter aircraft.


Image
Image

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2992
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 09 Oct 2020 19:44

Question to the gurus. For the missiles that do not use rails and are ejected from the jets - How do they fall horizontally and symmetrically. Why don't they by the gravitational force tilt on the front or tail while falling?

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3048
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 09 Oct 2020 21:31

Also, I did a rough L/D of the SMART missile in image 3 and it came to be about 13. Compare that to the L/D ratio of Shaurya missiles going by its wiki dimensions where the length = 10 m and the diameter = 0.74m. The L/D of Shaurya is = 10/0.74 ~ 13.5 quite close to the SMART's "approx" L/D of the missile in flight.

Intially i too thought that the missile could be fat. But all this could be just perception of these images.

Sid
BRFite
Posts: 1653
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Sid » 09 Oct 2020 21:32

Vips wrote:Question to the gurus. For the missiles that do not use rails and are ejected from the jets - How do they fall horizontally and symmetrically. Why don't they by the gravitational force tilt on the front or tail while falling?


That depends on the center of gravity of that missile, and release parameter. These missiles can only be released at certain altitude, speed, and, orientation. E.g. Brahmos tips a bit forward as it has that extra electable cone before firing booster and stabilizing.

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3048
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 09 Oct 2020 21:44

brar_w wrote:[

This is a great post. CONOPS, networks, and de-confliction is very important. In the gulf-war, an ATACMS launch (a sub 200 km quasi ballistic missile) could need up to 1.5 hours to properly de-conflict and be cleared (in a war where inadequate de-confliction was ID'd as the reason for 1/3 of all coalition blue-blue casualties). The number was still in the minute 7-10 range in OIF (for the same weapon). And that is in the best-case scenario with networks intact, NLOS communications uninterrupted and no fog of war. Future technology is being developed to shrink it to seconds but it is difficult to develop and probably a decade or more out. Long to very long range kill chains are very difficult to close and execute even at the highest technology levels.

There is difference between lumbering slow moving, concentrated & dispersed land based systems & hi speed fast moving highly netwoked air based systems.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9105
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 09 Oct 2020 21:47

Kanson wrote:
brar_w wrote:[

This is a great post. CONOPS, networks, and de-confliction is very important. In the gulf-war, an ATACMS launch (a sub 200 km quasi ballistic missile) could need up to 1.5 hours to properly de-conflict and be cleared (in a war where inadequate de-confliction was ID'd as the reason for 1/3 of all coalition blue-blue casualties). The number was still in the minute 7-10 range in OIF (for the same weapon). And that is in the best-case scenario with networks intact, NLOS communications uninterrupted and no fog of war. Future technology is being developed to shrink it to seconds but it is difficult to develop and probably a decade or more out. Long to very long range kill chains are very difficult to close and execute even at the highest technology levels.

There is difference between lumbering slow moving, concentrated & dispersed land based systems & hi speed fast moving highly netwoked air based systems.


Excellent point. I guess, to my initial data, I should also add (and dig up if available) ground target based deconfliction times as the times I had referenced in my earlier post entailed strictly air-space deconfliction though for the munition i used as an example, danger close would be a non-issue as it wasn't at the time even cleared for such an employment so while those data may exist they may not necessarily alter the practical employment procedures for the example i cited..
Last edited by brar_w on 09 Oct 2020 21:53, edited 3 times in total.

Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7005
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Anujan » 09 Oct 2020 21:48

If the air resistance/lift is the same in the front and the back and whatever is holding the missile in the front and the back is disengaged at the same time, the missile will fall symmetrically and horizontally. It does not matter how much each part weighs: Galileo showed that with his two balls from pisa tower experiment.

Rsatchi
BRFite
Posts: 865
Joined: 04 Aug 2019 22:03

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rsatchi » 09 Oct 2020 22:02

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/status/1314550887809835008
New generation first indigenous Anti-Radiation Missile RUDRAM developed by @DRDO_India for Indian Air Force successfully flight tested today onto a radiation target located on Wheeler Island off the coast of Odisha. The missile was launched from SU-30 MKI fighter aircraft.


Image
Image

Sirji
Just watched a video : the name is RUDRA M has two variants M2 and M3 and not Rudram!!!
And they have been under development since 2016/2017
??Different from NGARM which has been under development since 2012
Watch this video:
https://youtu.be/FNGk9XiCMUQ
Last edited by Rsatchi on 09 Oct 2020 22:06, edited 1 time in total.

Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2118
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 09 Oct 2020 22:05

Another NOTAM, Pralay?
https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/13 ... 5715318786
#Areawarning #India issues a notification regarding "Launch of Experimental Flight Vehicle" in the #BayOfBengal area

Launch Window | 16-17 October 2020

Image

Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2118
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 09 Oct 2020 22:18

Rsatchi wrote:
Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/SpokespersonMoD/status/1314550887809835008
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej44HWmUwAA ... name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej44HWmVkAA ... name=large

Sirji
Just watched a video : the name is RUDRA M has two variants M2 and M3 and not Rudram!!!
And they have been under development since 2016/2017
??Different from NGARM which has been under development since 2012
Watch this video:
https://youtu.be/FNGk9XiCMUQ


Sirji,
That tweet is by MOD Spokesperson not me
NGARM is RudraM-1 and there are another two M2 & M3 on which not much detail is available
The video is by a enthusiast with details from opensource and is not an official one

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3048
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kanson » 09 Oct 2020 22:26

nachiket wrote:Question. Why can't the NGARM be drop launched like the Brahmos or the R-27/77's from the MKI's fuselage HP's? Why does it need this special trapeze launcher? I had assumed they would develop a drop-launcher for the Astra as well to be used on the MKI's fuselage HP's. Now I am thinking the Astra might also use this trapeze launcher eventually.

Yes big missiles/bombs are simply dropped. True.
Check AIM-54.
At the sametime when the stability of the missile that is launched is of paramount importance, you need something to 'handhold' the missile when launching process in on.
Most common method used is rail assisted launch.

Now that the conditions & altitudes from which this missile will be launched is available.
Given the need for stability of the missile during launch at these conditions at the sametime clean seperation required from parent body under these conditions, NGARM launcher is used. It is another form of rail assisted launch.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2622
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 09 Oct 2020 22:29

JTull wrote:


In this video, there is a very visible wobble when it free falls & before the booster ignites. Is this normal?

I think the air-launched Brahmos separation was quite clean, if memory serves me right

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3980
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 09 Oct 2020 22:43

Once we test out the A2A version of Rudram-1, there is no escape for the Pak propeller AWACS.

It is all nice and TFTA to show around number of propeller AWACS in peace time.

In a war, when your adversary is going to have a 200 - 250KM long ARM, streaming at you at Mach 4, datalinked, you really hope the propeller's are rotating fast.. really fast.. to allow you to land quickly.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2468
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 09 Oct 2020 22:44

I do laugh at 140kg weight quoted for the missile in wiki which is being used by the news media.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9105
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 09 Oct 2020 22:47

nam wrote:

In a war, when your adversary is going to have a 200 - 250KM long ARM, streaming at you at Mach 4, datalinked, you really hope the propeller's are rotating fast.. really fast.. to allow you to land quickly.


200-250 km Air to Air Mach 4+ ARM with a counter shut down capability (that can survive airborne towed decoys and other RF CMs) are still quite difficult to develop. So for now, these AEW will continue to serve a purpose as long as their radars can see beyond the missile envelopes. But yeah eventually, as target RCS's shrink, and your AEW (of all shapes and sizes) need to get closer and closer to still provide a utility, this (relying on them as part of your CONOPS) will become problematic. This is basically what killed the AWACS and JSTAR replacements. Its a concept that is headed towards obsolescence rather fast.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3980
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 09 Oct 2020 22:59

brar_w wrote:200-250 km Air to Air Mach 4+ ARM with a counter shut down capability (that can survive airborne towed decoys and other RF CMs) are still quite difficult to develop. So for now, these AEW will continue to serve a purpose as long as their radars can see beyond the missile envelopes. But yeah eventually, as target RCS's shrink, and your AEW (of all shapes and sizes) need to get closer and closer to still provide a utility, this (relying on them as part of your CONOPS) will become problematic. This is basically what killed the AWACS and JSTAR replacements. Its a concept that is headed towards obsolescence rather fast.


Even if the AEW shuts down it's radar, the platform will still be visible on our AEW. You provide positional data through datalink and the missile will still know where to go. With propellers, you are not going to go far, before the missile is near you..

If it had jet turbines.. there is some hope.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9105
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 09 Oct 2020 23:04

nam wrote:Even if the AEW shuts down it's radar, the platform will still be visible on our AEW. You provide positional data through datalink and the missile will still know where to go. With propellers, you are not going to go far, before the missile is near you..


How would that concept work? Does the missile have a seeker that can use a third party guidance to get it within a seeker envelope? If it has an ARH seeker then it needs a second seeker capability for it to pick a target in case there is no radiation to home in on. If you want a semi-active intercept you still need an appropriate seeker that is in-band with what is cueing it. You can introduce GPS/INS as a counter to counter-shutdown in case you are targeting ground based, relatively fixed or "deployable" systems. That doesn't work for airborne intercepts.

The US AARGM and AARGM-ER has a MMW active seeker as a primary backup to counter-shutdown (in addition to GPS/INS) but even there there is absolutely no indication (that I have seen, or that has been demonstrated) that the seeker is hardened or capable of countering airborne decoys and RF CM's in those dynamic intercept profiles. There are also issues of speed that come into play with airborne intercepts with MMW seeker heads given the scan rates involved, surmounting which isn't a trivial task. So if you loft (which you would need to maximize range) and are even cable of lofting to what is required, then you could potentially be coming in too fast and therefore must be able to modulate speed for maximizing seeker scan time and probability of detection and tracking.

For a pure ARH profile flying at Mach 2-4 range against a Mach .5-8 target at 200-250 km away, your counter shut down tactics do not need to be as severe or elaborate as what a ground based system would need to execute. At those intercept trajectories, if you loose track for seconds then you have no chance of covering that up unless you can loft really really high which would require a design that we would clearly be able to see. If you want a long range A2A Anti-AWACS missile against a target flying at 30,000 - 50,000 feet (probably your profile of interest with some fringes on either side of that envelope (like HALE or lower flying platforms like helo based AEW aircraft) then you are probably better off designing a dedicated air-air interceptor that can loft very high. Using a ground targeting ARM is probably not the best approach there as the scope creep and design required to meet those dual-requirements will probably make it highly complex and expensive to buy in numbers. Another benefit for a dedicated AIM for this role is that you can optimize the warhead instead of lugging around one that is also optimized for defeating ground based systems.
Last edited by brar_w on 10 Oct 2020 00:04, edited 8 times in total.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2768
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 09 Oct 2020 23:08

This was not Rudra M or M2 or M3.

RM's tweet is clear about it.

https://twitter.com/rajnathsingh/status/1314483549639045121?s=20

The New Generation Anti-Radiation Missile (Rudram-1) which is India’s first indigenous anti-radiation missile developed by
@DRDO_India
for Indian Air Force was tested successfully today at ITR,Balasore. Congratulations to DRDO & other stakeholders for this remarkable achievement.

Sumeet
BRFite
Posts: 1534
Joined: 22 May 2002 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Sumeet » 09 Oct 2020 23:22

brar_w wrote:
nam wrote:

In a war, when your adversary is going to have a 200 - 250KM long ARM, streaming at you at Mach 4, datalinked, you really hope the propeller's are rotating fast.. really fast.. to allow you to land quickly.


200-250 km Air to Air Mach 4+ ARM with a counter shut down capability (that can survive airborne towed decoys and other RF CMs) are still quite difficult to develop. So for now, these AEW will continue to serve a purpose as long as their radars can see beyond the missile envelopes. But yeah eventually, as target RCS's shrink, and your AEW (of all shapes and sizes) need to get closer and closer to still provide a utility, this (relying on them as part of your CONOPS) will become problematic. This is basically what killed the AWACS and JSTAR replacements. Its a concept that is headed towards obsolescence rather fast.


Brar If you think AWACS is an outdated concept why is there so much focus (in IAF) to build new ones or buy it from foreign sources for countries like India. Is it because most of our force for next two decades will be non stealthy fighters ? Should not Radar upgrade (say GaN TR modules) based AESA present a solution to low observable systems ? And why can't multiple AWACS not become part of more favored Systems of system approach which may become reality post 2035+.

Here is an article that still advocates need for AWACS type system -- https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1054654.pdf


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: nits and 60 guests