Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 16 Oct 2020 16:03

lakshmanM wrote:Puhlease, look at the typical flight altitude and separation velocity of both missiles.
Subsonic, sea-skimming missile, released from a slow platform vs high altitude, supersonic missile, released from a fast aircraft


Are you privy to these details? If so, please share.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby lakshmanM » 16 Oct 2020 16:20

Prem Kumar wrote:
lakshmanM wrote:Puhlease, look at the typical flight altitude and separation velocity of both missiles.
Subsonic, sea-skimming missile, released from a slow platform vs high altitude, supersonic missile, released from a fast aircraft


Are you privy to these details? If so, please share.

Any oldie would care to reply? I don't respond well to misplaced sarcasm. He probably had a long day.

Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 16 Oct 2020 16:28

Look, it appears that you don't post here regularly. If you are going to offer your opinion, back it up with some data. Everyone benefits. Otherwise, you're wasting forum bandwidth

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 16 Oct 2020 18:26

Pratyush wrote:
pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/1316631937897820161


Has all the hall marks of a being the foundation stone for a powered glide weapon for anti armour applications will a range of upto 150 kms. Using the SAAW airframe, the data link, a small booster, the IIR seekers.

^^
The "SR" nomenclature makes it clear that longer range version(s) are in works ...

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 16 Oct 2020 20:51

lakshmanM wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:
Are you privy to these details? If so, please share.

Any oldie would care to reply? I don't respond well to misplaced sarcasm. He probably had a long day.

We just don't have enough details and specs are unbelievable even for air launched missile because of its 108 Kg warhead, I wouldn't speculate on it till we get more details.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 16 Oct 2020 21:17

Anujan wrote:There was a vayu article about this and other missiles some time back:

https://www.vayuaerospace.in/article/53 ... p-missiles

The Varunastra is described as a long range anti-ship missile with cruising speed of 850 kmph. This low cost relatively light weight missile is being developed for neutralising smaller ships as a ‘cost effective solution’. The missile weighs 225 kg, has a 108 kg penetrator and blast fragmentation warhead. The missile has very low RCS and a designed range in excess of 270 km. The Vel is another low RCS platform being developed, a light cruise missile which weighs about 200 kg and can achieve speeds in excess of 270 km for employment against surface targets


Anujan, the Varunastra and Vel are a figment of imagination of Air Marshal S B Deo, former Vice Chief of Air Staff who made models of missiles at home without ANY scientific basic. No wind tunnel testing. No CFD modelling.

The numbers too are without ANY scientific basis.

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 319_1.html
Former Vice-Chief of Indian Air Force, Air Marshal SB Deo (retired) offered four missiles of different types to Indian armed forces at the Aero India show on Wednesday.

Deo has personally designed and developed all the missiles. It also includes a 297-km strike range cruise missile Vel and stand-off missile Khagantak.

SB Deo told ANI, "This epitomises Make in India, foreign exchange content is less than 10 per cent. We have two glide bombs of different calibre and a light-weight cruise missile with a range of 297 km that carries a small warhead. They could be inducted in less than 6 months." :rotfl:

Five-day air show Aero India 2019 begun in Bengaluru on Wednesday.

(This story has not been edited by Business Standard staff and is auto-generated from a syndicated feed.)


https://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/10 ... d-off.html

The weapons have so far remained concepts given that they have no official sanction and aren’t routed through the established DRDO-DPSU route to service entry. However, Air Marshal Deo and DRDO chief Selvin Christopher today not only shared a warm hug, but also agreed to “work together” — this could mean the DRDO getting involved and helping Air Marshal Deo get the weapons going as inductable platforms.


https://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/03 ... d-off.html

https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 220220756/

Honestly a senior officer shouldnt have come up with this kind of unscientific nonsense. His brother was the Attorney General of State of Maharashtra.

Prem Kumar wrote:Much-needed boost, but some of these specs seem completely off: A 55Km range missile weighting 380Kg but a 270 Km range missile has a 200Kg weight. Even if we assume that the warheads are of different classes, these numbers seem very odd


lakshmanM wrote:Puhlease, look at the typical flight altitude and separation velocity of both missiles. Subsonic, sea-skimming missile, released from a slow platform vs high altitude, supersonic missile, released from a fast aircraft


LakshmanM,

Prem Kumar and John are right.

Just because someone writes something doesnt make it true. None of the statistics of the missiles passes the common sense test. And one needs to share facts to substantiate a point of view.

Prem Kumar wrote:A 55Km range missile weighting 380Kg but a 270 Km range missile has a 200Kg weight. Even if we assume that the warheads are of different classes, these numbers seem very odd


Prem is asking right logical questions. By no stretch of imagination can a 200 kg missile go 270 km!

As I mentioned earlier, the missiles are a figment of imagination of Air Marshal Deo and not backed up by any scientific research. MOD, IAF, DRDO no one gave any serious thought to it.

The real Varunastra is a 533 mm Heavy Weight Torpedo.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 16 Oct 2020 21:31

OK, I made a mistake in identifying the trapeze launcher of NGARM as a new one. Kindly ignore that post. My apologies for the wrong post. One doesnt see Russian weapons deployed often and hence their details are not so well known.

Its an old AKU-58 that originally came with Su-30MKI and had Cyrillic lettering identifying it that I missed in the video.

Here is the launcher in full detail -

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 6.jpg.html
Image

Here is the trapeze launcher in Chinese service -

http://www.ausairpower.net/PLA-N/Su-30M ... APO-1S.jpg
Image

http://авиару.рф/wp-content/uploads/201 ... Shema..jpg
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Anujan » 16 Oct 2020 22:06

tsarkar

Was not aware of the colorful history of some of the missile vaporware. Thought vayu was a reliable source, will be careful in the future.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 17 Oct 2020 06:06

tsarkar saab, yes that launcher is being used for a variety of other missiles that are going to be tested from the Su-30. Many more in the pipeline.


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Vips » 17 Oct 2020 21:19

Unless something else has been tested under the guise of Pritivi II, the latest NOTAM would be a damp squib of our expectations of testing of Pralay or XRSAM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby fanne » 18 Oct 2020 03:15

we have known to test Trishul multiple times, even after it was officially cancelled

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 18 Oct 2020 12:43

A few nuggets from Rout's article on the Prithvi-2 test:

1) 350Km range, with a 1 tonne warhead. Wiki says Prithvi-2 is a 250Km range missile - not true. Hope they also test (if they haven't already) an extended range Prithvi-2 with a 500Kg warhead
2) Maneuvering trajectory with a single digit CEP
3) Inducted weapon and this was the 2nd night trial in less than a month
4) He said "salvo mode", which was confusing, because only 1 missile was fired
5) The missile's terminal dive can be at an 80 degree angle. Possibly a reverse-slope targeting was tested (similar to Brahmos)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SSridhar » 18 Oct 2020 14:43

BrahMos tested from INS Chennai today in the Arabian Sea and from Rajnath Singh downwards everyone congratulates. Obviously, there is more to it than meets the eye.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Prem Kumar » 18 Oct 2020 14:55

Yep - something cooking. Maybe it was the ER version. It was against a live target. The reports also say that it performed very complex maneuvers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SSridhar » 18 Oct 2020 16:51

DRDO Chairman G Satheesh Reddy too congratulated the scientists and all personnel involved in the test-firing of the missile which he said will add to the capabilities of the Indian Armed Forces in many ways.

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... aign=cppst

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 18 Oct 2020 18:09

SSridhar wrote:BrahMos tested from INS Chennai today in the Arabian Sea and from Rajnath Singh downwards everyone congratulates. Obviously, there is more to it than meets the eye.



i suppose one can only guess ER land attack version ? ..maybe a 1000 km :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby fanne » 18 Oct 2020 18:41

Chinese target in Tibet are at best 150-200km (mostly sub 100 km) from the Lac. The logistic lines and nodes connecting to Tibet are 500km from Border (Hotan) or 1000km in East. We have many missiles that cover that and I hope in numbers. In a missile dual in my opinion we can dish out more pain than them (mostly owing to geographical limits of chin side, far lesser numbers are needed). It looks like we may only need few types- Brahmos that will meet all objectives but costly and some cheap ssm (prithvi) to complement it.


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby SSridhar » 18 Oct 2020 21:01

Vips wrote:The test results and observations are important for future analysis and further advancement, scientists said.

Of course, but such iterative tests do not earn fulsome praise from top honchos, only a breakthrough technology.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby darshan » 18 Oct 2020 21:06

Though not likely but I'm hoping that it was due to new changes that makes it cheaper and faster to produce and that's why everyone's happy.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby sanjaykumar » 18 Oct 2020 21:27

I hope they do not earn “fulsome” praise :wink:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 18 Oct 2020 22:15


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby nam » 18 Oct 2020 23:08

Brahmos seem to hit targets like we see of Tomahawk. I don't see why we cannot put the same seeker on Nirbhay and deploy it.

Brahmos tests are probably made public, because the Russians would know about any tests. Nirbhay can be tested in Rajasthan, without making it public.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 18 Oct 2020 23:28

nam wrote:Brahmos seem to hit targets like we see of Tomahawk. I don't see why we cannot put the same seeker on Nirbhay and deploy it.


There is generally quite tight coupling of seeker, SWaP (margins) and other mission systems specific to a particular weapon which makes wholesale migration of one system, not designed or optimized for this application in mind, to another system quite a tricky undertaking. For example, there is good reason why the US Navy went to Raytheon to design a clean sheet, missile optimized seeker for the Tomahawk MST+ instead of just asking that a Harpoon or LRASM seeker be integrated into it. Similarly, if you want a highly flexible (as limited a reliance on third party target updates as possible) long range subsonic anti-ship missile (which would be the case for a 1000+ km profile) you also naturally have different volume search requirements that may not exist on a supersonic shorter ranged anti-ship missile. See the passive RF seeker on the LRASM for an example, that allows it organic volume search and target discrimination when third party updates are not available or when LOS data links are jammed or destroyed (which can happen in a war).
Last edited by brar_w on 19 Oct 2020 00:21, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby John » 18 Oct 2020 23:35

nam wrote:Brahmos seem to hit targets like we see of Tomahawk. I don't see why we cannot put the same seeker on Nirbhay and deploy it.

Brahmos tests are probably made public, because the Russians would know about any tests. Nirbhay can be tested in Rajasthan, without making it public.

Current problem with Nirbhay seems to be engine and also ADE seems to be struggling with it. Finally we seem to have hedged our bets and started other subsonic programs in parallel maybe that's kick that ADE needs to get this to finish line.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 19 Oct 2020 04:18

nam wrote:Brahmos seem to hit targets like we see of Tomahawk. I don't see why we cannot put the same seeker on Nirbhay and deploy it.

Brahmos tests are probably made public, because the Russians would know about any tests. Nirbhay can be tested in Rajasthan, without making it public.


The two seekers being developed for Brahmos will have variants also intended for Nirbhay.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 19 Oct 2020 06:35

How do you guys surmise the problem with Nirbhay is it's engine? Some reporter said something and that's why?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 19 Oct 2020 15:07

There's a report that entire missile was recovered from sea so they'll be able to do extremely good failure analysis.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Nitesh » 19 Oct 2020 17:16

@delhidefence is reporting that SANT has been tested by IAF today

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ks_sachin » 19 Oct 2020 17:25

Indranil wrote:How do you guys surmise the problem with Nirbhay is it's engine? Some reporter said something and that's why?


Indranil you are being very polite!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby fanne » 19 Oct 2020 17:37

Hopefully Rudra and lch problem is solved

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rsingh » 19 Oct 2020 18:48

Wonder what will be last test before Deepawli............ok all missile together in salvo.......Arnab shouting live commentary :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby dinesh_kimar » 19 Oct 2020 19:00

From a cursory glance at specs, HAL PTAE 7 engine proposed for Nirbhay has decent power at 3.7 KN, weight of 65 kg and dia of 0.33 m.

Engine Life of 900 minutes for extended version good enough.

It compares well to Manik's 4-4.2 KN, 130 kg and 0.35 m.

However, the PTAE length is 1.25 m vs 0.95 m for Manik, and being a turbojet, is thirsty with SFC of 1.5 kg/KN-hr.

So, a Nirbhay with PTAE engine might have a range penalty, say 400 -500 km range.

( Good enough for most applications, cheaper and longer range than Brahmos variants, powers that be can still pursue this version. Nirbhay's flight failures is another thing, though).

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 19 Oct 2020 20:24

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1318195717421162498
The @DRDO_India tested its Standoff Anti-Tank Missile (SANT) today on the east coast. There's another test planned tomorrow. Details shortly. (The SANT is an extended range version of the HELINA/Dhruvastra).

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Dilbu » 19 Oct 2020 20:56

India successfully test-fires SANT missile with ‘Lock-on After Launch’ & ‘Lock-on Before Launch’ capabilities
The Defence Research and Development Organisation is developing the missile for the Indian Air Force and it will have both Lock-on After Launch and Lock-on Before Launch capabilities, sources said.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby mody » 19 Oct 2020 21:43

Was the SANT missile test fired from Rudra or Mi-35 platform? Indian Defence Update on YouTube has claimed that earlier tests of SANT had been carried out from MI-35. About the latest test, there are no details as yet.
But a SANT test is great news for the Rudra and LCH.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 19 Oct 2020 22:09

Another Notam
https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/13 ... 6921720832
#Areawarning #India activates two danger zones off the coast of #Balasore in the #BayOfBengal area, one known for A2A firing, the other a target towing range

Fire Window | 27 Oct - 10 November 2020

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby pankajs » 19 Oct 2020 23:31

SSridhar wrote:
Vips wrote:The test results and observations are important for future analysis and further advancement, scientists said.

Of course, but such iterative tests do not earn fulsome praise from top honchos, only a breakthrough technology.
Yup!

A new usecase/test profile .. may be circles around and hits from the back. There was talk of "complex maneuver". I am happy that everyone up and down the chain is happy.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 19 Oct 2020 23:50

JTull wrote:There's a report that entire missile was recovered from sea so they'll be able to do extremely good failure analysis.

Impossible.
1. If a self-destruct button was used, missile won't be in one piece even before it hits the water.
2. If a self-destruct button was not used, the missile will be in thousands of pieces after hitting the water.


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