Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

[AdityaM]

some missile test happened today

Manu pubby was the first to report about a missile test at 12:02Pm

[MeshaVishwas]

Jai Hind.
Great job by DRDO and kudos to the Modiji Govt.

[JTull]

Nuclear weapons didn't do the compellence, neither will this tech.

The lizard wasn't creating any problems for you at this moment. This will just ensure further proliferation of tech nothing else.
Showing space deterrence to shiver the baki audience? who are in primitive stage in space tech.

Don't know but one doesn't show the balakot, solah proof and celebrates a ASAT test. Great optics just based on beliefs. I see it a rather a redux of smiling buddha. Modi's policies are known to him only...Kudos to the scientists for acheiving this feat.

Ah, seems you're also firmly believe in Indo-Pak hyphenation. Wake up and see it's the other neighbour that we've to worry about and who's resources are being actively made available to the first one.

[gaurav.p]

Ah, seems you're also firmly believe in Indo-Pak hyphenation. Wake up and see it's the other neighbour that we've to worry about and who's resources are being actively made available to the first one.

Saar, the hyphenation has already happened post pulwama. Can't deny that. My comment stems from current scenario and then questions the need for the test if you are locked horns with baki and it's antics. There are many low hanging fruits (truly a joke when indian journalists are justifying balakot BDA by showing the israeli attacks on hamas) that needs resolution rather than flexing with an ASAT test.

If one really want to counter the lizard, then fix the trade balance. Militarisation of space isn't going to solve any of the problems that you have with the lizard. The only implication from this test shows the incompetence of UN et all and the need to fix the UNSC. Sanctions et all highly unlikely but worldwide statements against it nominal.

From Modi's 'address to the nation' was required for telling an ASAT test. I don't think so.

[Pratyush]

Saar why so intent on dhoti shivering.

What goes of my father if it's India China or India TSP.

PS if you believe that post Pulwama we got hypnated with TSP. Then nothing to the contrary will convince you otherwise.

[Karan M]

Gaurav P,

The lizard wasn't creating any problems for you at this moment. This will just ensure further proliferation of tech nothing else.

And you know this how? You are privy to the GOI's highest decision making?

Don't know but one doesn't show the balakot, solah proof and celebrates a ASAT test.

What does one have to do with the other? As India has not shown compelling evidence for some 1971 war shootdowns etc, should we stop our strategic programs or not even announce them? Linking these things is pointless.

Great optics just based on beliefs. I see it a rather a redux of smiling buddha. Modi's policies are known to him only

Please keep *your* beliefs out of this thread and the forum, and stick to facts. Your *speculation* about hyphenation, optics, this, that and attempts to depict them as facts are neither warranted nor justified.

[Karan M]

Ah, seems you're also firmly believe in Indo-Pak hyphenation. Wake up and see it's the other neighbour that we've to worry about and who's resources are being actively made available to the first one.

Saar, the hyphenation has already happened post pulwama. Can't deny that. My comment stems from current scenario and then questions the need for the test if you are locked horns with baki and it's antics. There are many low hanging fruits (truly a joke when indian journalists are justifying balakot BDA by showing the israeli attacks on hamas) that needs resolution rather than flexing with an ASAT test.

If one really want to counter the lizard, then fix the trade balance. Militarisation of space isn't going to solve any of the problems that you have with the lizard. The only implication from this test shows the incompetence of UN et all and the need to fix the UNSC. Sanctions et all highly unlikely but worldwide statements against it nominal.

From Modi's 'address to the nation' was required for telling an ASAT test. I don't think so.

I seriously think you need to talk less, read more and then present your "opinion". Right now, all you are doing is parading your ignorance, especially around the items in bold. Especially regarding capabilities which our neighbors have and which we hadn't demonstrated, the international ramifications around treaties, and the need for senior leadership to take ownership of such events & reiterate India's overall stand.

[Vips]

Agni to Mission Shakti, a long-desired capability tested.

Data Points to be noted:

Avinash Chander, former DRDO chief who was instrumental in building the organisation’s missile capabilities said: “This is an extension of the DRDO’s long-range ballistic missile programme of the extra-atmospheric interception. While we had been working on this technology for long, the current programme was initiated some time recently.” (Modi gave the go ahead in 2014)

Scientists with DRDO said the project had not got the final sanction under the previous UPA government

"The work on A-SAT missile had not begun under UPA government. Our scientists had the desire and the capability to develop anti-satellite missile since long, but they were not given clearance from the erstwhile Indian government, Jaitley said. All the work under this project has been done after 2014 after PM Modi gave permission, he further added."

Just note the willful damage done to India's Strategic interests by Congress.

[Austin]

Russia, India to turn BrahMos cruise missile into hypersonic weapon

[Cain Marko]

Why would PM convey this message?

Especially after all that drama of special address to the nation, making people wait for 30 minutes... Total media blitz and dikhawa imho.

It would have worked just as well if treated like an agni launch.

[Singha]

strategic moves need PM level talk, esp if as I believe this was in response to cheen attack on risat1 in 2016.

agni/K launches are routine, until agni6 comes along.

[Prem Kumar]

PM Modi announcing it himself had several reasons:

1) Strategic nature of the weapon tested & demonstrates India's seriousness about this issue. We don't know what hanky-panky China was attempting post-Balakot. So, a message had to be sent to Xi from the big man himself.

2) Rallying the U.S behind it. If Modi himself is involved, the U.S will play along. Imagine if MMS was the PM. Even if he gathered the balls to do a test like this, the U.S would've threatened him with sanctions and he would have meekly folded.

3) There is a larger geo-strategic play here. I'm sure Doval had informed his U.S counterpart ahead of time. You can clearly see that the U.S is supporting us on this test. Its not a coincidence that they are going against China on Masood Azhar in the U.N. Pompeyo is also tearing China a new one on Twitter regarding their treatment on Uighurs. Connect the dots.

4) Nothing will motivate the DRDO more than the PM himself lauding their efforts on national television. They've been the butt of criticism from our services, the presstitutes etc. Modi's address will shut everyone up. Imagine the pride the entire organization will feel.

5) Election season. There is absolutely no reason why Modi should not milk this. He'd be stupid not to. If the Congress whiners weren't so traitorous, they'd have done this test and claimed political credit.

[Sid]

Can someone ID this missile, it does not look like ASAT,or other stuff I have seen so far.

[Vivek K]

strategic moves need PM level talk, esp if as I believe this was in response to cheen attack on risat1 in 2016.

agni/K launches are routine, until agni6 comes along.

Any details of this - chicom attack on Lisat?

[ramana]

Sid That is the TEL checkout vehicle.

GouravP You are incorrect in all contents

[ramdas]

@gaurav.p:

1) Neither nukes nor this are for compellence. They are for deterrence. Are you also saying that our going nuclear was the wrong decision ? TSP was anyway going to go nuclear. What if they were the only power in the subcontinent with nukes ?

2) It serves our purpose to accelerate the strategic buildup. That would put TSP in a bind: compete and collapse economically, or accept strategic inferiority with its deterrent losing credibility over time. Why continue ``strategic restraint" when it is not in our interest ?

[vera_k]

From Modi's 'address to the nation' was required for telling an ASAT test. I don't think so.

This would be correct if the authority to proceed had been delegated down to other government officials. If it required a policy decision by the PM, it is good that it is transparently acknowledged as such.

[Singha]

Next priority item would be hypersonic avengardski mirv

[gaurav.p]

I linked the ASAT test with the current situation with TSP hence the critique. On later thought it is independent decision and I was wrong.

Yes it is a complex indian stand which goes for peace but for eventual strategic equality goes nuclear and space denial tech.

Modi announcing it is politically linked for election season but then he was the was one who showed the political will. Nationalism is core BJP issue this election.

[ramana]

One day we will know more.

[ramana]

Kurup can you post all NOTAM since 1 Jan 2019 in one thread please?

[Austin]

Can someone ID this missile, it does not look like ASAT,or other stuff I have seen so far.

Sandeep mentioned its a mockup so not an actual ASAT

[nash]

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1113065628271730689
Saurav Jha
‏Verified account @SJha1618

According to @DRDO_India, six prototypes of the MANIK Small Turbofan Engine (STFE) developed by GTRE for powering subsonic cruise vehicles have been built. They have 95 % indigenous content. MANIK will be flight-tested soon. Here are the specs released by DRDO.

Hopefully we may see soon test flight of Nirbhay with MANIK.

[Indranil]

I hope that SFC number is a typo. That number always used to be 0.78. 0.78 is respectable. 0.95 is not.

[sudeepj]

Going by the specs on that board, MANIK is not impressive at all compared to other similar engines and will probably reduce the range of Nirbhay. Good first attempt I guess. Get it into production and start work on an MKII.

[Indranil]

Where else do you find it wanting?

[sudeepj]

Where else do you find it wanting?

Weight is higher than comparable engines.. no?

[Neela]

I hope that SFC number is a typo. That number always used to be 0.78. 0.78 is respectable. 0.95 is not.

[nash]

weight of MANIK is similar to Saturn 36MT:
http://www.uecrus.com/eng/products/bpla/36mt/

Thrust at limiting point, kgf, up to 450
Specific fuel rate at limiting point, kg/kgf*h 0,71
Dry mass, kg 82
Default mass, kg 100
Overall dimensions:
Maximum diameter, mm 330
Maximum length, mm 850

[sudeepj]

So the tomahawk engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_F107) has much lower thrust than Manik and also weighs a lot less, also has much better SFC. Isnt such a high thrust (450kgf) a waste for a Nirbhaya like missile? Perhaps its going to be derated for the Nirbhaya application and in that mode has similar fuel consumption as the F107 engine?

Now I know as much about turbofan engines as I do about jinns Looking forward to some expert to give some gyan.

[Karan M]

To me this means the engine is not just meant for Nirbhay but larger UAVs/aircraft as well. The heavier thrust is for that.

[ramana]

sudeepJ, Williams designs things close to the edge due to their access to better materials.
Having some margin is good for DRDO miniturbo fan engine.

One bad habit we desi have is to compare Indian beginning product to the best in US and berate up the desi product.

Just like parents berate their kids for not being the school topper without providing the amenities!
Extreme low budget and minimal production runs.
And complain about how bad they are.

[sudeepj]

Ramana ji, guilty as accused.. Still, may be Manik is designed for a broader application and the derated use for Nirbhaya will have better characteristics?

[ramana]

True. We will find out!!!

[Indranil]

Sudeep ji,

Don't go by engine weight. Everybody has a different definition of what forms part of the engine. This class of engines typically have a TWR of 4.0 which is what Manik. TeT, pressure ratio etc. are all in the right ballpark.

[pralay]

One bad habit we desi have is to compare Indian beginning product to the best in US and berate up the desi product.

+108

[Neela]

sudeepJ, Williams designs things close to the edge due to their access to better materials.
Having some margin is good for DRDO miniturbo fan engine.

One bad habit we desi have is to compare Indian beginning product to the best in US and berate up the desi product.

Just like parents berate their kids for not being the school topper without providing the amenities!
Extreme low budget and minimal production runs.
And complain about how bad they are.

I recall reading that we intend to place order for 500 russian engines for Nirbhay.
If these are meant for Nirbhay + heavier UAVs , then the order size will be large.

[Aditya_V]

drdo news letter
april 2019 | volume 39 | issue 4
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/newsle ... ril_19.pdf

Page 19 of the DRDO news letter has details about the Small Turbofan Engine

[Singha]

So the tomahawk engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_F107) has much lower thrust than Manik and also weighs a lot less, also has much better SFC. Isnt such a high thrust (450kgf) a waste for a Nirbhaya like missile? Perhaps its going to be derated for the Nirbhaya application and in that mode has similar fuel consumption as the F107 engine?

Now I know as much about turbofan engines as I do about jinns Looking forward to some expert to give some gyan.

heavier land launched GLCM of the CJ10 longsword type will need a bigger engine (and cart a bigger warhead) to retain the same speed. think CMs not of the 1000km TLAM type sized for submarine tubes but 2000-2500km range.

its easier to make a big engine and scale down, than other way around.

[Will]

I recall reading that we intend to place order for 500 russian engines for Nirbhay.
If these are meant for Nirbhay + heavier UAVs , then the order size will be large.

I hope not. Russian engines spell bad news . Remember the cryo engine for the GSLV and the GSLV’s thatnflew with them failed multiple times. Same with the Nirbay flying perfectly when the Russian engine was replaced with an Indian one, the numerous problems and delays with the engine for the IJT.