Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
kurup
BRFite
Posts: 125
Joined: 15 Aug 2016 14:22

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kurup » 03 May 2019 12:04

Kakarat wrote:
kurup wrote:
The GLCM variant uses the setup of single wing rotating about a pivot but the ALCM variant as the image shows follows a Tomahawk style wing setup , two wing pieces rotating about two pivots from same part of the body .


How? we have not seen the other side of the missile even the wing is not completely visible


In a Nirbhay style setup , the slit for the wing on the other side will be on the front .

Here you can see that the opening on the other side is also present on the back side as well , indicating a tomahawk like setting .

Kakarat
BRFite
Posts: 1875
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakarat » 03 May 2019 12:16

kurup wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
How? we have not seen the other side of the missile even the wing is not completely visible


In a Nirbhay style setup , the slit for the wing on the other side will be on the front .

Here you can see that the opening on the other side is also present on the back side as well , indicating a tomahawk like setting .


Yes you are right, my bad i missed it

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7876
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby brar_w » 03 May 2019 17:55

Singha wrote:
brar saab was saying by having a long range missile which can function in ecm dense environments, you automatically force the enemy DDGs to carry and expend more SAMs in defensive ops than carrying land or sea attack missiles that can target your own ships.

in short such subsonic, but smart and long range ASMs can function as Amraam C5 + F16 "fending off" sticks vs enemy naval groupings ?


Absolutely. If you have a lot of missiles that can strike ships at long, and medium distances and can effectively guide them then that acts as a very strong influencer on what your opponent packs his VLS with. Look at the US Navy DDG's..there is SM3, SM6/2, ESSM and RAM and DEW etc in the future. The VLS is literally packed with Ballistic and Cruise missile defense missiles both within the atmosphere and outside. This is the cost those ships have to pay to operate in that threat environment and to protect themselves and the carrier. If the threat was less severe, they would have been packed with more offensive weapons (like the Zumwalts would) so the threat of long and medium range missiles has imposed a severe cost. Same also translates to sensors. AEGIS investments are directly tied to the need to be better defended. If that threat wasn't as severe that money would have gone towards offensive capability.

If you can target a ship at 500-1000 km ranges then that forces your opponent to make defensive investments because that is plenty of stand off reach to operate with. Same with weapons with ranges 2x or 3x of that..

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3803
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 03 May 2019 20:20

Is there any thought being given to the shaurya as an anti ship, carrier killer type weapon? Time to Target will be much faster than brahmos even.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 03 May 2019 20:42

the same kind of sensor grid that can detect and provide mid course updates to a 1000km nirbhay ASM should be able to handle it for the 1500km shourya. I think its a matter of the necessary tech being developed by us, because I dont think such offensive grids and tools are for sale at any price.

it will need shore and ship based radars including OTH modes, satellites, SOSUS, unmanned long loiter recon ELO platforms, jam resistent IRNSS modes, comms relay manned platforms to be truly effective. mid course updates and terminal guidance has to be jam resistant or autonomous to be truly effective for the costs of this investment.

the best example of this whole ecosystem is the one soviet union built to support their backfires armed with KH6 kingfish and Oscars with Granit missiles to target the CVBGs near GIUK gap, norway and japan.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2652
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 03 May 2019 21:02

On one side we say that it's not easy to track ACs. Then we talk about Nirbhaya flying for an hour to hit mobile targets 1000km offshore that supposedly will require Heli, fixed wing and space assets to track. All this when our primary threats are sub-surface. Not sure what scenario we're planning for.

I'd like to see ground launched land attack versions now then delay for fancy anti ship version. I'd even prefer air launched land attack version before the anti ship.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18515
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 03 May 2019 21:09

Are you even reading the details in the discussion?

First, Longer range means loiter, more complex maneuvers, not necessarily flying 1000km in a straight line.

Second, it is IN which wants these specifications. They decide what they need, and sub-surface requirements are to be met by different labs, different systems. Nirbhay team is not sitting designing towed array sonars for instance, so its a non-sequitur to compare Nirbhay requirements with sub-surface requirements.

Third, please read this for merely an example of what all efforts have been going onto spread the India's footprint, apart from the fact IN now operates aircraft with this. India already operates heli assets including the Ka-31 and space based assets like Rukmini.

Fourth, which version comes first into service depends on a bunch of factors outside our control. Including test progress and service requirements. The current Nirbhays were the predecessors to the actual service variants and have proven the baseline technologies.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18515
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 03 May 2019 21:16

Singha wrote:the same kind of sensor grid that can detect and provide mid course updates to a 1000km nirbhay ASM should be able to handle it for the 1500km shourya. I think its a matter of the necessary tech being developed by us, because I dont think such offensive grids and tools are for sale at any price.


Nirbhay is quoted as >1000km. IMHO, its not merely 1000km and will also use DRDO's new very low drift RLG-INS.

it will need shore and ship based radars including OTH modes, satellites, SOSUS, unmanned long loiter recon ELO platforms, jam resistent IRNSS modes, comms relay manned platforms to be truly effective. mid course updates and terminal guidance has to be jam resistant or autonomous to be truly effective for the costs of this investment.


Sea Guardian UAVs were likely part of this plan, linking data back to a C3I node.

the best example of this whole ecosystem is the one soviet union built to support their backfires armed with KH6 kingfish and Oscars with Granit missiles to target the CVBGs near GIUK gap, norway and japan.


Yes, and we need to work on a SOSUS kind of plan as well.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2652
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JTull » 03 May 2019 21:41

Yes, I'm following this discussion.

I understand and agree that it'd be nice to have a 1000kms+ anti-ship missile with all the cool tracking paraphernalia. But, where's the argument in favour of anti-ship being a priority above land attack version? By all measures, LACM is ready with development trials completed. Only need desi Manik engine. Did Brahmos wait till all its variants were ready?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18515
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 03 May 2019 21:44

Brahmos already had a seeker and was basically a 80% ready missile ported over into an Indian C3I/FCS setup designed for it. So we really cant compare.

Point is that services will not accept a 50% product, they have to be dragged kicking and screaming for even a 80% product.

The Navy wants a 1500km ranged AShM, so if they want that, that's what ADE will have to deliver. I agree its stretching things to ask for such demanding specs, so I hope some sense strikes or this is DDM and they settle for a lower ranged unit.

IMHO, there's no surety that the Navy version will delay the Land Attack version, because we don't know if the Land Attack Version is "simple". It too may need a seeker and several fancy features including Manik (for sanction busting).

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3409
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 03 May 2019 21:51

Karan M wrote:Brahmos already had a seeker and was basically a 80% ready missile ported over into an Indian C3I/FCS setup designed for it. So we really cant compare.

Point is that services will not accept a 50% product, they have to be dragged kicking and screaming for even a 80% product.

The Navy wants a 1500km ranged AShM, so if they want that, that's what ADE will have to deliver. I agree its stretching things to ask for such demanding specs, so I hope some sense strikes or this is DDM and they settle for a lower ranged unit.

IMHO, there's no surety that the Navy version will delay the Land Attack version, because we don't know if the Land Attack Version is "simple". It too may need a seeker and several fancy features including Manik (for sanction busting).


just curious how the Navy will provide the over the horizon targeting data in real time for such a missile ?!..

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18515
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 03 May 2019 23:08

Navy has Ka-31s, P-8Is and Herons for OTH targeting.

Varoon Shekhar
BRFite
Posts: 1876
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 23:26

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 10 May 2019 19:18

What are the significant Indian inputs into the Nirbhay missile? The turbo-fan engine is imported, but is mostly everything else indigenous? Public information on this quite scanty!

Haridas
BRFite
Posts: 538
Joined: 26 Dec 2017 07:53

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Haridas » 10 May 2019 21:26

Varoon Shekhar wrote:What are the significant Indian inputs into the Nirbhay missile? The turbo-fan engine is imported, but is mostly everything else indigenous? Public information on this quite scanty!

Most important: systems design and systems integration.

JayS
Forum Moderator
Posts: 4327
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby JayS » 11 May 2019 09:32

Varoon Shekhar wrote:What are the significant Indian inputs into the Nirbhay missile? The turbo-fan engine is imported, but is mostly everything else indigenous? Public information on this quite scanty!


Do watch the Tarmak Talking interview with Team Nirbhay. Apart from engine, everything is Desi. With Manik, 100% missile will be Shuddh Desi. No seeker yet, but they already have two desi seekers as options. So Nirbhay will have desi seeker too. It will be updated to use IRNSS for guidance eventually.

What I dont like about Nirbhay Program is, instead of completing development of this existing GL version first and induct it as soon as possible, now they are being forced to go with development of SL and AL versions first. And then after all the varients are proven, User trials will start. This is as stupid as it gets. Someone is really really working hard to postpone Nirbhay induction, within the system.

dhyana
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 53
Joined: 23 May 2011 10:56
Location: sindoor

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby dhyana » 11 May 2019 23:52

This seems out of the blue?

Hanwha K-30 Biho mobile air defense system for Indian Army

India has finally selected the South Korean-made Hanwha K-30 Biho, designed mainly to protect forward maneuver units. Further official confirmation properly documented is expected.

Hanwha's K-30 Biho (Flying Tiger) twin 30mm short range, mobile self-propelled anti-aircraft system, manufactured by Hanwha, has been selected by the Indian Army following a competition that included Russia’s Tunguska-M1 which has a range of up to 10 kilometers, and the Pantsir-S1 ‘Greyhound’.

The weapon was developed to meet the operational requirements of the Republic of Korea Armed Forces for a highly mobile short-range air defense system suited to the operational and terrain conditions of the Korean peninsula. It combines an electro-optically guided 30 mm gun system with a surveillance radar system on a K200 chassis. It supplements the K263A1 Chungung, a self-propelled 20 mm Vulcan system. The K30 is primarily built by Hanwha Defense Systems.

The K-30 Biho, in addition to its 30mm auto-cannon, has LIG NX1 Chiron missiles, a TPS-830K search and tracking radar, and advanced electro-optical sights fire control. The expected quantities are 104 K-30 Biho systems, plus 97 ammunition carriers, 39 command vehicles and ammunition with a value of KRW 3 trillion $2.6 billion (KRW 3 trillion). This is the first export sale of the system by Korea. Biho also participated in US Army firing demonstrations held in 2017.


And I guess confirmation here, with complaints from aggrieved parties...

Indian Army selects South Korean K-30 Biho SHORAD system, Russia calls for re-evaluation

shaun
BRFite
Posts: 986
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby shaun » 12 May 2019 09:55

How North Korea's Air Force Would Die a Fiery Death
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... eath-54442

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16828
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Rahul M » 13 May 2019 10:36

I get really depressed by news of this kind, tech wise, these are low hanging fruits that are well within our capabilities.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3409
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 13 May 2019 11:13

Rahul M wrote:I get really depressed by news of this kind, tech wise, these are low hanging fruits that are well within our capabilities.

i guess, but it takes time and maybe IA needs a ready solution for now. A DRDO solution will come.

vimal
BRFite
Posts: 307
Joined: 27 Jul 2017 10:32

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby vimal » 13 May 2019 11:35

Rahul M wrote:I get really depressed by news of this kind, tech wise, these are low hanging fruits that are well within our capabilities.

I wonder if this was partly due to the PAF response after Balakot. Army did not have a quick reaction system in place which could’ve knocked out a few PAF bunders out of sky.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7690
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 13 May 2019 12:29

Rahul M wrote:I get really depressed by news of this kind, tech wise, these are low hanging fruits that are well within our capabilities.

On the contrary, I don't think it is a low hanging fruit. The system is more than twin 30mm guns mounted on a tracked chassis. Key is the small radar which does both - surveillance and tracking.

Closest that we have to this radar is the ATULYA FCR being developed by DRDO - which will replace the Fledermaus and Flycatcher radars used with L-70 guns. We recently went for 66 Israeli AD-FCR as an interim purchase to most probably replace older Fledermaus systems. Balance will be replaced by own product.

But IMO, Atulya will also need to be further evolved into something which is compact enough to fit into a chassis like this system.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 11248
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Aditya_V » 13 May 2019 12:38

vimal wrote:
Rahul M wrote:I get really depressed by news of this kind, tech wise, these are low hanging fruits that are well within our capabilities.


I wonder if this was partly due to the PAF response after Balakot. Army did not have a quick reaction system in place which could’ve knocked out a few PAF bunders out of sky.

Which bunder came close to LOC only 3 F-solah crossed after the H4 failed .

May be a reaction as system is capable of taking down artillery rounds, missiles and PGM.
Last edited by Aditya_V on 13 May 2019 15:10, edited 1 time in total.

srin
BRFite
Posts: 1805
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby srin » 13 May 2019 13:56

vimal wrote:
Rahul M wrote:I get really depressed by news of this kind, tech wise, these are low hanging fruits that are well within our capabilities.


I wonder if this was partly due to the PAF response after Balakot. Army did not have a quick reaction system in place which could’ve knocked out a few PAF bunders out of sky.

Nope - this was reported in Dec last year.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia-pacific/2018/12/18/russia-wants-back-in-on-indias-gun-and-missile-system-competition/
During a meeting of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation in New Delhi Thursday, visiting Russia Defence Minister Gen. Sergei Shoigu made clear his displeasure about the upgraded Tunguska system and a system from Pantsir being kicked out of the pending program, a source from the India Ministry of Defence confirmed. In October, the Indian Army officially declared Hanwha Defense Systems of South Korea as the only qualified company for the gun and missile system program.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18515
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 13 May 2019 17:46

Rahul is absolutely right. Let me explain.

The only thing missing are those guns and MANPADs. Because AHQ cancelled the program for those L70 replacements. Report on BR someplace, two times SQR change, then dropped. But we make BMP gun, Russian CIWS gun also ( I think, need to check).

But with Bharat Forge, BEL, L&T etc, we can still make them.

The radar is not a problem. Because its merely a 2D surveillance unit not a complex surveillance, tracking and fire control one like Atulya. For Atulya we took an indigenized err inspired Flycatcher equivalent and paired it with a new XBand AESA.

Skycature takes the EL/M-2106 used for SpyDer SR and pairs it with the Elta XBand AESA developed for Shilka upgrade assembled by BEL and which it's now hard selling as a separate unit as well. In our case we have a good 2D light weight surveillance radar sitting pretty,its the Bharani LLLWR, ir if you want to spend more money and upgrade to a 3D unit, use the S band Aslesha which is even better.

The system uses EO sensors to cue and control the guns. In our case, Atulya, QRSAM, Arjun all have this:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Visakhapatnam/irde-develops-advanced-24x7-cams/article8213835.ece/amp/
Again LRFs are easily available, BEL makes a bunch of them.

FCS software? Atulya has that preintegrated.

Net, we could have done this easy, provided we didnt cancel the L70 gun programs. Or if we use Russian guns, even better. We still can if we use the SoKo program as interim fit, like the SkyCapture/Atulya. Use the MANPADS if Russians sell them or say Mistral.



rohitvats wrote:
Rahul M wrote:I get really depressed by news of this kind, tech wise, these are low hanging fruits that are well within our capabilities.


On the contrary, I don't think it is a low hanging fruit. The system is more than twin 30mm guns mounted on a tracked chassis. Key is the small radar which does both - surveillance and tracking.

Closest that we have to this radar is the ATULYA FCR being developed by DRDO - which will replace the Fledermaus and Flycatcher radars used with L-70 guns. We recently went for 66 Israeli AD-FCR as an interim purchase to most probably replace older Fledermaus systems. Balance will be replaced by own product.

But IMO, Atulya will also need to be further evolved into something which is compact enough to fit into a chassis like this system.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2772
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 13 May 2019 19:46

Rahul M wrote:I get really depressed by news of this kind, tech wise, these are low hanging fruits that are well within our capabilities.

Very true.

Take an AK-630 made by OFB and add a set of Iglas guided by Aslesha (search & track) and Atulya (fire control) and put it on a BMP-2/T-72 chassis.

http://www.ofbindia.gov.in/products/dat ... add_12.htm

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/in ... rishul.jsp

The Trishul used Flycatcher on BMP-2
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/in ... rishul.jsp

The Korean Chiron missile is just an upgraded Russian Igla that was supplied and gave ToT as part of debt retirement

https://www.lignex1.com/eng/product/product01_01.jsp

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3409
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby kit » 13 May 2019 19:55

If the capability was there what was the requirement for a foreign vendor ?.. as far as I know the acquisition council/board has a DRDO member ( ? Director general ) who has to certify that the system cannot be sourced/manufactured indigenously ?

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 53439
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby ramana » 13 May 2019 20:43

tsarkar, I agree that DRDO/OFB could have up-barrelled a ZSU-23 with a couple of 30mm barrels from the AkK-630 and come up with a new gun. I don't know what the barriers were.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7690
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 13 May 2019 21:16

This is what Wikipedia says about the radar on K-30:

The TPS-830K radar of K30 is an X-band (8 to 12.5 GHz) surveillance and fire-control pulse-Doppler radar, specialized for use against low-flying aircraft. Its features include real-time early warning, multiple target detection, an integral L-band (1 to 2 GHz) Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) subsystem, pulse compression, frequency agility, and adaptive moving target indication as an anti-chaff measure. It supplies ballistic computation data to the digital fire-control system to direct the aim of the electro-optical targeting system, which then aligns the 30 mm guns with the target for accurate fire


So, I don't think its a simple 2D surveillance radar.

Second - I don't think using such a high rate of fire weapon like AK-603 in AD role is appropriate. With rate of fire in excess of 4,000 RPM, this is more than double of nearest ROF of even Tungushka or Pantsir. Shilka, surprisingly, has lower ROF per gun at 850-1,000 with combined 4 gun ROF in excess of 3,400 RPM.

Also, AK-603 is quite a monster in terms of weight. And I'm not talking about the whole installment but the gun and ammunition part.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7690
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 13 May 2019 21:24

BTW - where can I read more about Shilka upgrade and what all it involves? Thanks.

Zynda
BRFite
Posts: 1678
Joined: 07 Jan 2006 00:37
Location: J4

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Zynda » 13 May 2019 23:22

Rohit saar,
Some of the links about Shilka upgrade if you haven't found yourself yet. None of them go in to very detail I am afraid. For that have to probably hunt for a BEL article onlee...

https://www.army-technology.com/news/ne ... l-4451712/

https://defense-update.com/20090315_zsu23-4.html

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2772
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby tsarkar » 14 May 2019 00:12

rohitvats wrote:This is what Wikipedia says about the radar on K-30:

The TPS-830K radar of K30 is an X-band (8 to 12.5 GHz) surveillance and fire-control pulse-Doppler radar, specialized for use against low-flying aircraft. Its features include real-time early warning, multiple target detection, an integral L-band (1 to 2 GHz) Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) subsystem, pulse compression, frequency agility, and adaptive moving target indication as an anti-chaff measure. It supplies ballistic computation data to the digital fire-control system to direct the aim of the electro-optical targeting system, which then aligns the 30 mm guns with the target for accurate fire


So, I don't think its a simple 2D surveillance radar.

Second - I don't think using such a high rate of fire weapon like AK-603 in AD role is appropriate. With rate of fire in excess of 4,000 RPM, this is more than double of nearest ROF of even Tungushka or Pantsir. Shilka, surprisingly, has lower ROF per gun at 850-1,000 with combined 4 gun ROF in excess of 3,400 RPM.

Also, AK-603 is quite a monster in terms of weight. And I'm not talking about the whole installment but the gun and ammunition part.


Rohit < 2 tons (as per OFB link) isn’t high. The ERA on Arjun Mk2 + other aggregates weigh more. The same 6 barrel gun is flown in MiG-27 and is equivalent to A-10 gun. If it can be flown, it can surely be mounted on a T-72 or BMP-2 chassis.

The higher rate of fire ensures more projectiles on target leading to higher Pk.

It can be guided by Compass EO sight as on Deepak class tankers and newest NAMICA carrier.

A radar similar to Elta 2221 or BEL Shikari could be adapted. The Trishul Flycatcher - also user by Venezuela for its Barak-1 missiles - could have been used.

For missiles, Mistrals (LCH) or Stingers (Apache) or Iglas could be added.

This was very much a doable project. Especially given the experience from multiple iterations of AK-630 IN already has -
MF-STAR on Kolkata Class
Elta 2221 on Delhi, Vikramaditya, Brahmaputra & Godavari class
Oerlikon TMX / BEL Shikari on Kamorta, Prabal, Kora, Kukhri class
El-Op Compass on Deepak Class
Russian EO on Teg & Vikramaditya Class

The gun is best in class. With Israeli/Swiss guidance, it’s unbeatable.

Picklu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2011
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Picklu » 14 May 2019 01:53

My guess is, this is going straight to L&T, to the same plant and the same sub system vendors that are building K9.

If that's the case, this is not a capability for military, this is a capability building for a non psu private MIC.

Enlargement of a supply chain without the OFB bottlenecks.

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3246
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Kakkaji » 14 May 2019 05:35

Agree with picklu ^^

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18515
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 14 May 2019 06:20

rohitvats wrote:This is what Wikipedia says about the radar on K-30:

The TPS-830K radar of K30 is an X-band (8 to 12.5 GHz) surveillance and fire-control pulse-Doppler radar, specialized for use against low-flying aircraft. Its features include real-time early warning, multiple target detection, an integral L-band (1 to 2 GHz) Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) subsystem, pulse compression, frequency agility, and adaptive moving target indication as an anti-chaff measure. It supplies ballistic computation data to the digital fire-control system to direct the aim of the electro-optical targeting system, which then aligns the 30 mm guns with the target for accurate fire


So, I don't think its a simple 2D surveillance radar.


Just look at the antenna. Its a parabolic reflector antenna radar, a lightweight unit mostly used on basic 2D systems. Anyways see this:
https://kdtinc.co.kr/data/brochure.pdf

Also, the power envelope of this system remains doubtful against emerging threats.
https://www.uasvision.com/2014/04/14/so ... om-israel/

Second - I don't think using such a high rate of fire weapon like AK-603 in AD role is appropriate. With rate of fire in excess of 4,000 RPM, this is more than double of nearest ROF of even Tungushka or Pantsir. Shilka, surprisingly, has lower ROF per gun at 850-1,000 with combined 4 gun ROF in excess of 3,400 RPM.


Why not? Higher the ROF, lesser the dispersion. Don't just look at available solutions and then tailoring the next gen solution to be an equivalent one.

Land Phalanx
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WL7rAimX1o4

LD2000
https://www.armyrecognition.com/china_a ... 08161.html

Also, AK-603 is quite a monster in terms of weight. And I'm not talking about the whole installment but the gun and ammunition part.


You can have solutions like the above, or even get a license production deal for the guns alone.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18515
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 14 May 2019 12:14

2018 Update, DRDO January 1 2019.

Air Defence Fire Control Radar (ADFCR) ‘Atulya’: ADFCR ‘Atulya’ in conjunction with anti-aircraft guns, forms a ground based air defence system whose main purpose is effective point defence against all air threats at short and very short ranges during day and night. During the year, DRDO evaluation of the radar system was completed and integrated test firing of ADFCR with guns and targets were carried out.

Specs

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Singha » 15 May 2019 09:51

https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 514142040/

AD units to be placed closer to border.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18515
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 15 May 2019 09:58

Yes!!!! I had flagged this very point.

Karan M wrote:So, the key takeaways from the Balakot/Feb27th campaign.

IAF positives

- IAF officers led from the front, command crews. This is a big deal even for the western AF who are more and more used to their senior guys flying desks.

- The pilots strike training was excellent, they flew exactly as they were meant to, with zero deviations, with munitions they had only simulated and delivered them exactly as they were meant to. Compare & contrast to Paki use of H4 Raptors and AMRAAMs.

- On Feb 27th, A2A pilots showed equal elan, avoiding multiple AMRAAM launches without panic & continuing to stay in the fight against much higher odds. The PAF in contrast *refused* to take on the IAF strike package headed to Balakot.

- IAF fighter pilots are aggressive, have zero qualms in going for the kill and are the decider. A MiG-21 pilot taking on, let alone shooting down a F-16 would be unheard of, yet WingCo Abhinandan did exactly that. This pysche reflects the IAF pilots skills, self confidence and morale.

- Netra used in wartime mission to lead the opening strike, an incredible vote of confidence for a local made system.

- Quality of intel was excellent, allowing the IAF to make a strike in 3 hrs if similar quality is available in the future

- IAF Spice integration & Crystal Maze worked out at wartime. Only 1 fighter had INS drift, a 35 yr old legacy aircraft means a non upgraded Mirage. Again, a non issue more or less, because the Mirages are being upgraded and the FOC config retains the Crystal Maze and SPICE integration

IAF: Things to improve

-The key thing here is to have HAL and Dassault speed up the Mirage 2000 upgrade, the slow rate of upgrade is literally unacceptable. The MiG-29 Upg is much further along.

-IAF AWACS numbers are an issue. This will particularly be a challenge if IAF takes the fight deep into Pakistan.

- IAF needs more aircraft on QRA, the delay in building hangers etc due to the budget limitations needs to be fixed.

-IAF wants tech asymmetry for A2A and cites AMRAAMs as an issue. Also notes S-400 and Rafales will help. Eitherways, this is a good time to push the GOI to move forward on the Su-30 upgrade, whichever Govt comes in and add new generation missiles to it, and also push the Astra NG project.

-Other low hanging fruit are the Tejas Mk1A orders, SDRs, and EW (accelerate the new RWR and lightweight SPJs for the Su-30s to enable more coverage for strike missions).

- SDR issue is the simplest example of pointless delay.

- BDA being done by Crystal Maze is an amazing example of how rapidly the IAF has moved up the tech. ladder, but at the same time depending on a friendly country for BDA images is not acceptable. Clearly we didn't have enough sats available for round the clock coverage and repositioning one would have meant a loss of sat available life (fuel etc). We need more investments here.

- Additional EW aids like Comjam & ELINT aircraft (IAF business jet plan) needs to be refocused to include jamming of A2A radars as well. This can have disproportionate dividends in a conflict.

- Indian Army AD needs to drastically improve. Its a real issue that the PAF PGMs were able to come close to important formation HQs without being intercepted, the Akash order/deliveries for IA, MRSAM orders need to be accelerate.

- PGMs are the future. Irrespective of how good the Litening & dumb bomb accuracy is, if you use airpower and wish to avoid the propaganda of airframe losses, you need to have a heavy inventory of PGMs. Stuff for the IAF to think about, as it has tended to prioritize airframe numbers & run after *all procurements* like the C-295 instead of focusing first & foremost on the combat heavy elements.

What've learnt about the PAF

- Psyche, the PAF was forced to respond with a haphazard plan on Feb 27th, they have to be seen to respond to the IAF asap. Internal political pressures plus public perception.

- Were able to coordinate a large force strike reasonably well, but let down badly due to risk avoidance of fighter crew, poor BVR tactics and equipment limitations.

- F-16 remains their one stop shop for A2A and strike. The only aircraft thanks to AMRAAM able to face off against IAF jets. Also, explains why despite larger numbers, were not used effectively to close to the IAF planes in merge, because the PAF is simply unwilling to lose these aircraft.

- PAF F-16s were unable to deter the IAF Su-30s despite having larger numbers in play, firing first. This shows the quality of the IAF crew but also the wartime fit of the F-16s could not block the Su-30 WCS. Somewhere, the Russians and all the IAF/DRDO guys who worked on the Su-30 were vindicated. Note, the IAF specifications for the Su-30 WCS were demanding enough that it took till 2012 for the final version to see service.

- PAF's elite picked for a strike, were unable to take down the IAF's squadron standard aircrew despite overwhelming numbers. This is a resounding vote of confidence for the investment in IAF training methodology.

- The much vaunted JF-17s were a complete joke due to their inability to take on even 2 Mirage 2000s despite outnumbering them 4:1 and even more. The PAF didn't even bother deploying the JF-17 against the Su-30.

-JF-17 radars were not up to the task. Refusal of PAF to deploy PRC ZDK-03 over land & order of more Erieyes confirms this issue.

- PAF's haphazard modernization of different fighter classes with different munition types didn't pay off. The F-16 LGBs and Mirage 3/5 Raptors were both man-in-loop systems and hence couldn't be guided in as PAF fighters broke off attacks too quickly

- PAF's BVR & otherwise training has lacunae and is built around risk avoidance. Launching multiple BVR from RMax and expecting success

-They simply wouldn't close in to score kills despite outnumbering the IAF significantly. The IAF took on multiple PAF bogies despite being outnumbered. The PAF on Feb 26th, refused to.

- Implies PAF will now revert to GPS guided bombs from F-16 and JF-17 in the future. We need to invest in GPS jammers. This *is* going to be the PAF response henceforth.

-PAFs investment in Erieyes and own C3I enables it to do more with less. We need to take anti access systems against AEW&C into account, beyond the Meteor. Having Meteor on Rafales, Mirages and RVV-BD on Su-30s (apart from S-400) can be a real dampener for the PAF.

-PAF will seek more and more with China, irrespective of the JF-17 and ZDK-03 flop show. They have no other options, lacking domestic capability. Also expect orders to Turkey, Europe for EW aids and as 2nd line of supply. We need to take this into account.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3803
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Cain Marko » 15 May 2019 13:20

I think the s400 will truly be a game changer.... Placed in key areas, it could deny high altitude airspace to most of their birds esp. AEW. They'll literally have to fly blind if they want to try a similar attack as last time.

In the meanwhile, I'm glad the Akash and mrsam are are moving up...

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7690
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby rohitvats » 15 May 2019 15:04

https://defence-blog.com/army/russia-looking-for-replacement-for-troubled-pantsir-air-defense-system.html

Russia looking for replacement for “troubled” Pantsir air defense system

And the Russians were complaining against Indian Army's decision to go for the South Korean K-30 BIHO Gun/Missile Self Propelled AD System

From the article:

According to sources in the Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, the Russian Army and Navy are dissatisfied with Pantsir complex and looking on absolute new air defense systems. For the army, the Pantsir air defense system proved too heavy, complex and not effective to protect against most of the potential threats. To protect the ships in the coastal zone and in harbors, the naval version of Pantsir has also become too expensive and not very effective.


Currently, attempts are being made to develop for Russian Air Force new advanced version, called the Pantsir-SM, with latest electronics, radar, and new missiles. A new project is being funded by selling the existing version of “troubled” air defense systems abroad at a low price.


With respect to the bolder part immediately above, guess, they wanted Indians to be the 'Bakra'.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18515
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Karan M » 16 May 2019 15:50

Tunguska flop. Pantsir flop. Igla-S flop. Looks like several Russkie systems are not worth the hype.

Hope IA sticks to its guns.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 59 guests