Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

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Rishi_Tri
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Rishi_Tri » 14 Feb 2021 20:57

Overview of Arjun Mk 1A major upgrades. Very informative.



From today's dedication of the Arjun Mk 1A to the nation by PM Modi. Also very informative.



--Atma Nirbhar Bharat--

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby suryag » 14 Feb 2021 22:09

HESH is like cowdung awesome description for AAs like me :)

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 14 Feb 2021 22:25

The RWS on the Mk1A looks particularly interesting ., is this fully automatic., if so what sensors are slaved to this ? ., can this be used as a missile defence ?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 14 Feb 2021 22:40

The most interesting topic in the video was about auto-loader. The design head categorically says IA Generals insists on 4 men crew! Yet at the same time send CVRDE on a wild goose chase with reducing weight!

This shows how Armor guys are least interested in improving Arjun. They don't want auto-loader. They don't want to experiment with a 2 crew design nothing... only obsolete T90 design and gun. :roll:

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 14 Feb 2021 22:43

@TonboImaging
Hearty congratulations to
@DRDO_India
for successful handover of the Arjun MBT MK 1 A to the #IndianArmy integrated with our indigenously designed and developed EOFCS for 12.7 mm RCWS onboard.
@cmdbel

@adgpi
#atmanirbharBharat

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Rishi_Tri » 15 Feb 2021 03:08

nam wrote:The most interesting topic in the video was about auto-loader. The design head categorically says IA Generals insists on 4 men crew! Yet at the same time send CVRDE on a wild goose chase with reducing weight!

This shows how Armor guys are least interested in improving Arjun. They don't want auto-loader. They don't want to experiment with a 2 crew design nothing... only obsolete T90 design and gun. :roll:


Yes. totally.

Design Head also indicates directly that don't compare Arjun with T90. It's in a different class and comparable to Abrams, Merkava.

The interview is very revealing.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 15 Feb 2021 06:23

I don't think we have the means to transport Arjun on the LAC, or do we? if we can, then some 100 of Arjuns in Depsang plane will conclusively and decisively close any option for China.
Last edited by fanne on 15 Feb 2021 06:30, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Feb 2021 06:28

fanne wrote:I don't think we have the means to transport Arjun on the LAC, or do we?

Do we need to?
And no we do not have a way to transport to LAC.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 15 Feb 2021 08:14

This is a day that we on BRF have been waiting for maybe 10 years now. 8)

Previous member Jcage must be very happy today. :wink:

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 15 Feb 2021 08:19

Only 118? How many T90s have been ordered?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 15 Feb 2021 08:36

Vivek K wrote:Only 118? How many T90s have been ordered?


Boss, just for one day can you shake off the pessimism please?

Arjun Mk1A order immediately following the LCA Mk1A order. Reason enough to be happy for one day. There was a time when we had given up hope for either one.

Think positive. Since this is Mk1A, it is just an interim step towards Mk2 which will be ordered in big numbers. At least I can hope, can't I?

Cheers

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Atmavik » 15 Feb 2021 09:04

Yes, lets be happy for some time. many of us had given hope that Mk 1A would ever be inducted. i know its small numbers but for reference, south Korean k2 black panther had an order of just 260.

whats next for MBT now ? is the Army moving on to FRCV or do we now need a Light and heavy tank based on our experience in Ladhak.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby sanjayc » 15 Feb 2021 10:31

Kakkaji wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Think positive. Since this is Mk1A, it is just an interim step towards Mk2 which will be ordered in big numbers. At least I can hope, can't I?
Cheers


This "big order" never arrives from Army or airforce. They order a token number for the current version, hinting that there will be "big orders" for the next version. When MK2 arrives, they will order a token number, hinting there will be big orders for MK3. When MK3 comes, they will order a token number, hinting there will be big orders for MK4. Same thing happening with LCA. The Airforce Chief is already hinting at limited numbers for LCA MK2 and big orders for AMCA.

Indian Generals are always chasing the bird in the bush rather than getting something in hand now that can be used to actually fight someone. The Chinese I presume will be easily thwarted by showing them the brochure for the next version.
Last edited by sanjayc on 15 Feb 2021 10:38, edited 1 time in total.

Pratyush
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 15 Feb 2021 10:36

Atmavik wrote:
whats next for MBT now ? is the Army moving on to FRCV or do we now need a Light and heavy tank based on our experience in Ladhak.


Prey to whichever god you worship that the army doesn't order 2000 T 14 as an emergency purchase. To deal with the emerging situation.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 15 Feb 2021 10:55

Philip wrote:India teady to order upto 500 T-14 Armatas? News report IDN I think. If true, huge committment to counter PRC and Pak offensively.

That's funny. The Russians themselves haven't inducted any T-14's yet. Big hot-air plans to buy 2300 T-14's have now come down to....100 with none delivered to Army units so far. :lol:

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Anujan » 15 Feb 2021 11:07

What are the envisioned differences between mk1a and mk2

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 15 Feb 2021 11:12

Anujan wrote:What are the envisioned differences between mk1a and mk2

There is unlikely to be a Mk2 unless the IA commits to large orders. It is pointless to keep wasting time and resources in endless development just to receive token orders. But if it does happen, a new indigenous engine would be welcome along with an APS. There were reports about the engine being developed recently.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Anujan » 15 Feb 2021 11:20

As I understand it, we field 2400 T72 which would need to be replaced at some point. Hopefully people will see the writing on the wall vis-a-vis imports.

It'll be great if we can develop a tank that is networked with uavs, attack helos and missile carriers like NAMICA.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby vipins » 15 Feb 2021 11:28

Kakkaji wrote:....

Arjun Mk1A order immediately following the LCA Mk1A order. Reason enough to be happy for one day. There was a time when we had given up hope for either one.

Think positive. Since this is Mk1A, it is just an interim step towards Mk2 which will be ordered in big numbers. At least I can hope, can't I?

Cheers

Phoren arms pandemic on our Defence forces slowing receding in 2021 !!

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 15 Feb 2021 11:40

fanne wrote:I don't think we have the means to transport Arjun on the LAC, or do we? if we can, then some 100 of Arjuns in Depsang plane will conclusively and decisively close any option for China.


Step 1: Drive a heavy crane there.
Step 2: Disassemble the tank into turret and chasis.
Step 3: Reassemble on site.
Step 4: Kick T99A butt.

But seriously, I don't think our T90's APFSDS is capable of busting through a T99A's frontal armor. Not sure how good the current APFSDS on Arjun is.

Armor is one area which we have badly neglected in the past decade.
Last edited by sudeepj on 15 Feb 2021 11:54, edited 1 time in total.

Atmavik
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Atmavik » 15 Feb 2021 11:51

Pratyush wrote:
Atmavik wrote:
whats next for MBT now ? is the Army moving on to FRCV or do we now need a Light and heavy tank based on our experience in Ladhak.


Prey to whichever god you worship that the army doesn't order 2000 T 14 as an emergency purchase. To deal with the emerging situation.



We pray to God Narsimha(wish we name our next MBT). i really hope its not T 14. time for Russian maal is over. we should develop something like the Japanese type 10.

PS: my childhood dream was to be a Tankman but sadly I failed. my dad would take me to play on this Pakistani M 47 Patton tank

https://cushtravel.com/patton-tank-hyderabad/

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 15 Feb 2021 11:56

4 Armd Regts on Arjun’s out of 40 or 50.
If you were an Armd Corps offer where would you like to serve knowing your war fighting doctrines are based on the T series - which is unlikely to change..
Interesting times and this small order shows that the Army still is not convinced about a heavy tank today else we should have had about 300 on order with a plan to upgrade the Mk1

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby chetonzz » 15 Feb 2021 12:28

MK1A firing without any shaking :-o :-o :-o :shock: :shock: :shock: is impressive no?...i have seen videos of T-90 and chinese tanks shaking after firing...ABRAMS is also a smooth firing one

at 6:15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpVjzFF19yM

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 15 Feb 2021 13:11

Desi production is a major obstacle to achieving greater % of home made products.Slow T-90 local production resulted in the last/ final order for 480+ T-90s in knocked down condition to be assembled at Avadi. The backlog of T-72 upgrades and T-90 production has to be completed before we can get large- scale production of A-1A/B MBTs .Has any timeframe been mentioned about the 1As? How long did the A-1s take? UVZ probably have the highest rate of AV production in the world. Avadi annual production may be hidden in some old CAG report,but for around 400+ Arjuns to be built to recover dev. costs, at least 100+ Arjun tanks/ yr. should be the minimum ROP. Other AVs being built
extra.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 15 Feb 2021 14:22

Philip wrote:Desi production is a major obstacle to achieving greater % of home made products.Slow T-90 local production resulted in the last/ final order for 480+ T-90s in knocked down condition to be assembled at Avadi. The backlog of T-72 upgrades and T-90 production has to be completed before we can get large- scale production of A-1A/B MBTs .Has any timeframe been mentioned about the 1As? How long did the A-1s take? UVZ probably have the highest rate of AV production in the world. Avadi annual production may be hidden in some old CAG report,but for around 400+ Arjuns to be built to recover dev. costs, at least 100+ Arjun tanks/ yr. should be the minimum ROP. Other AVs being built
extra.


You need orders to get production, Russia/Soviets did that from the days of the BT-7, T-26, T-34, we know how BT-7 and T-26 fared against German Anti Tank artillery/Panzer -3 etc and lots of T-34's were lost but they enabled a production eco system- if want to win wars you have to produce things locally.

Countries that have relied on imported weapons never really win wars, our 1971 war was an exception- Soviet Largesse from Petya Boats with Styx, Su-7B and Mig-21 in nos at very friendlship prices, but that era is now clearly over.

But then we had do things like stop successful Counter Air operations against PAF Rafiqui in Shorkot Road cause the SU-7s had only 3 drop tanks per aircraft and used them up in 2 days of raids. Thats where a local production system enables numbers to win wars.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 15 Feb 2021 14:48

ks_sachin wrote:Interesting times and this small order shows that the Army still is not convinced about a heavy tank today else we should have had about 300 on order with a plan to upgrade the Mk1


There was a video from the Chinese, which showed Type99 near South Pangong! I don't know what else will be required to convince them.

Armor corps doesn't want Arjun. MK1A is been inducted after giving out order for 464 T90. So they are confident of Arjun not blocking T90 induction and the political winds that GoI will not tolerate more T90, while letting Arjun rot.

Arjun's weight can be reduced, by including a autoloader. But IA wants 4 men and T90 weight. No country has ever produced such a tank. :roll:
Last edited by nam on 15 Feb 2021 15:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 15 Feb 2021 14:50

If they aren't going to buy a large number of Arjun's they should atleast move heaven and earth to get decent ammunition for the T-90's. The existing 3BM44 "Mango" FSAPDS ammo we use will fare poorly against the Type-99.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 15 Feb 2021 15:01

Our Armor corps is a "good enough" entity. Pak get AK, we get T90 with similar penetration. Arjun is not required, because Mango is "good enough" . Till couple of years back Chinese were not a threat. So light tanks were not required.

There was no funding for home grown sabot rounds because the mango rounds were "good enough". Now that Pak has inducted VT4 and the Chinese are showing off Type 15, things have "suddenly" started moving.

There is no interest in overmatch, even if the tech is available in the country. It is always about "good enough".

Sometimes, i really it is true, what one gentleman once said. "India Pak armor warfare is a communal riot with tanks".

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 15 Feb 2021 16:25

nam wrote:...
Sometimes, i really it is true, what one gentleman once said. "India Pak armor warfare is a communal riot with tanks".


:lol:

There used to be a dedicated thread for MBT Arjun (like there is for the Tejas). Can't see it now.. Guess many BRFites too weren't convinced that it would make it :(

Over the past decade seeing the progress (yes we all wish it was faster) i have wished for dedicated threads for the Tejas, the Arjun, the LCH,.. hopefully with future iterations of the threads having posts about their export orders. A decade ago it seemed almost to be wishful dreams, now it has metamorphosed into hopeful wishes.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby ParGha » 15 Feb 2021 18:52

ks_sachin wrote:
fanne wrote:I don't think we have the means to transport Arjun on the LAC, or do we?
Do we need to? And no we do not have a way to transport to LAC.

Technically, yes, the new C-17s can lift an Arjun each from Chandigarh and land in Leh. "Do we need to?" is the more important question. From a purely military perspective, the Arjuns provide marginal utility. But there can be strong political reasons to move them as a signaling mechanism. At the end of the day, war is politics by other means.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 15 Feb 2021 20:59

With --Atma Nirbhar Bharat-- slogan and PM himself making the personal push for Arjun Mk.1A, the IA generals (armored) will be under pressure to order more of Arjuns and its variants. No more T-series from here onwards ... at least not under the current GoI. The generals will have to directly answer to the PM why T-series MBT, why not Arjun? He came, he saw, he rode, he inducted. Very clear message. Enough said.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby sivab » 15 Feb 2021 21:36

srai wrote:With --Atma Nirbhar Bharat-- slogan and PM himself making the personal push for Arjun Mk.1A, the IA generals (armored) will be under pressure to order more of Arjuns and its variants. No more T-series from here onwards ... at least not under the current GoI. The generals will have to directly answer to the PM why T-series MBT, why not Arjun? He came, he saw, he rode, he inducted. Very clear message. Enough said.


It will take 3 years from the date of order for first tank to roll out and at least 3 more years for order to be completed. In other words, DGMF can/will sit tight for next 6 years. This monkey is off their back for next 6 years and then rinse repeat with another token order.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 16 Feb 2021 02:43

srai wrote:With --Atma Nirbhar Bharat-- slogan and PM himself making the personal push for Arjun Mk.1A, the IA generals (armored) will be under pressure to order more of Arjuns and its variants. No more T-series from here onwards ... at least not under the current GoI. The generals will have to directly answer to the PM why T-series MBT, why not Arjun? He came, he saw, he rode, he inducted. Very clear message. Enough said.

You want to bet?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 16 Feb 2021 02:53

What is the radome like structure on the left hand side of the Mk1A turret (the side that doesnt have the ERA)? It looks like some kinds of sensor, but I havent seen any description of what exactly it is.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 16 Feb 2021 03:22

ParGha how does the 4 man crew impact the structure of the Armd Regt?
Also do we know where these new tanks will go?

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 16 Feb 2021 03:48

ParGha wrote:Technically, yes, the new C-17s can lift an Arjun each from Chandigarh and land in Leh. "Do we need to?" is the more important question. From a purely military perspective, the Arjuns provide marginal utility. But there can be strong political reasons to move them as a signaling mechanism. At the end of the day, war is politics by other means.


I do not know enough about the topography of Ladhak, roads capacity, etc to comment, but wouldn't Arjun maul T-99 where as T-90 can barely be equal. Now Tanks do not have to fight tanks, perhaps helicopter, loitering munitions, ATGMs are a better tool, but in Depsang all said and done, when the balloon goes up, there will be tank vs tank fight. If Arjun is not constrained due to logistics vis a vis T-90 (this is the most decisive if), it will do much more than be marginally better, it can crush T-99 in 1-1 (T-90 may not) and prove decisive. At least it will increase chicoms logistic tail, they have to carry much more to neutralize the Arjun than the T-90.

I am not sure at 68 tonne (vs 46 tonne of T 90 and 51 tonnes of T-99) can Arjun go in all the terrain where the fight will be? That may be the most decisive factor.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 16 Feb 2021 07:55

Weight - ground pressure of Arjun is less than the tin can. In the hills Arjun would be fine once flown there and beat the cr$p of the Chinese equipment.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 16 Feb 2021 08:06

I don't understand the rationale of flying tanks to a battlefield for fighting in the Indian context.

If the battlefield is tankable then build road connectivity to it. Because tanks don't exist in isolation. They also need fuel and ammunition to sustain themselves.

Roads makes it easy for both. Also if the Indian army can move other logistics by road then tanks can be moved by roads as well.

If they cannot be moved by roads. It would effect the enemy as well. As they cannot achieve and exploit the breakthrough as they will have no space for exploitation.

Atgm fire team will have to hold the line.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 16 Feb 2021 09:06

I don't understand why the Chinese had 200 tanks in the area while we're fiddling around.

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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 16 Feb 2021 09:55

Pratyush wrote:If they cannot be moved by roads. It would effect the enemy as well. As they cannot achieve and exploit the breakthrough as they will have no space for exploitation.

I doubt the Chinese were looking to exploit breakthroughs and intrude in deep. They would have problems protecting their LoC's. But even a defeat and setback at the LAC itself would entail loss of land and lives not to mention make our existing roads and infra unviable. They have to be stopped at or near the point of contact.


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