Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

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Amit_G
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Amit_G »

Seniors, I have a question on this Light Tank requirement. Assuming that a light tank would be less protected against an ATGM as compared to an MBT, would it not be easier to manufacturer/purchase higher accuracy ATGMs? In Ukraine-Russia war, we have seen how the conventional tenets of a war were broken down. How a much smaller and ill-equipped army of Ukraine has been able to hold back the mightier Russian army from a clean sweep. The counter to a light tank, I believe, is not a light tank. Its better ability to hit such tin cans with a effective ATGM and delivery of such weapons through an A2G delivery platform - maybe a helicopter or a drone. I might be wrong and would be more than happy to be proven wrong!
Pratyush
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

This light tank will never be as protected as a heavy tank.

Note: i am not claiming one or the other as the main battle tank. A main battle tank is any vehicle that is used primarily to fulfill the roles of a tank in the specific situation.

Depending on the situation it can be either a 70 ton vehicle, or 40 tons or 25 tons.

Having said so, on the modern battlefield APS will be required.

Regardless of the tank being used by the army.

Now regarding the usefulness of the tank on the modern battlefield and it's future. Some nice and educational presentation are for your reference.







All the links cover the same topic but from different perspectives.

This should help you in learning more about the topic.
Amit_G
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Amit_G »

Pratyush wrote:This light tank will never be as protected as a heavy tank.

Note: i am not claiming one or the other as the main battle tank. A main battle tank is any vehicle that is used primarily to fulfill the roles of a tank in the specific situation.

Depending on the situation it can be either a 70 ton vehicle, or 40 tons or 25 tons.

Having said so, on the modern battlefield APS will be required.

Regardless of the tank being used by the army.

Now regarding the usefulness of the tank on the modern battlefield and it's future. Some nice and educational presentation are for your reference.







All the links cover the same topic but from different perspectives.

This should help you in learning more about the topic.
Yes sir, thank you so much for sharing these videos. I would agree if we had infinite money to purchase equipment. We dont have it. When two light tanks are confronting each other, wouldnt the winner be decided on who fires and hits first. The battle for tanks was relevant when the ATGM did not exist. The heavier the tank, the better protected it was. But Ukraine war seems to have invalidated the concept that tanks are the deciding factor. I am not an expert, but wouldn't light tanks be exposed in the terrain in Tibet/Ladakh?
Pratyush
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I can only tell you that professionals still want this vehicle.

I have shared the videos with the possible explanations as to why that is.

Make of it what you will.
ks_sachin
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Stop thinking of tank battles like in the past.

Also dont think of a tank as singular weapon. Think of it as a force multiplier when used appropriately and in conjunction with other offensive or defensive assets.

There is enough material on this thread..
Aditya_V
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Ukraine cannot be compared with Libya or Iraq, see how much resources and what a huge Advantage US had over North Vietnam.

Ukraine is a NATO supplied country with difficult terrain, the Russians have taken a difficult task, probably cause they felt they needed to.
ks_sachin
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Here is a primer on the employment of Armr...

https://www.benning.army.mil/armor/earm ... iples.html

This is a bit dated but the underlying principles are valid IMO.

So let's start understanding how / why / when armr will be / could be used in the Indian context.
Why are we mechanising to such a degree?
How are out IBGs different to the Russian BTGs and will they have the same problem in the deployment of Armr as the Russian BTGs.

Enough material out there.
Pratyush
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

https://gagadget.com/en/weapons/162934- ... tanks-amp/

A text book example of iterative development.

But this is unacceptable for Arjun.
Pratyush
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »



One of the concept vehicles for the Franco -German next generation tank program.

The other one is the KF51 Panther.

Both parties are bringing unique vehicles to the table.

The other thing I have noticed in such concepts is that, the RWS is a medium calibre gun. I think for anti drone operation.

This turret if mated to a lighter hull as opposed to the leopard hull. Will have the potential to meet the FRCV requirement of the Indian army.
VinodTK
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »



The Defenders: Infantry Combat Vehicles SARATH ICV (BMP-II) | 17 Sept, 2022
ashishvikas
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by ashishvikas »

India's ‘Zorawar' programme inches forward
Larsen & Toubro (L&T) has confirmed its role as partner in the programme to develop a light tank for the Indian Army. Janes has learnt that a prototype of the new tank is expected to be unveiled in late 2023.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... es-forward
Rakesh
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 3OVSZTafTg ---> T-72 and T-90 to be equipped with new DRDO developed LWR for protection against attacks from Turkish TB-2 drones, etc.
Pratyush
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

https://www.armyrecognition.com/defense ... _army.html

06 OCTOBER 2022

Are we sending tanks to Russia for upgrade?
pravula
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by pravula »

Upgrade what? The A/C? :wink:
Manish_P
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Sad news

2 Indian Army soldiers have died in an accident at the Babina firing range when a T-90 tank's barrel burst during an exercise.

Source - @alpha_defense (twitter)

Om shanti
mody
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Manish_P
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Seems like that the barrel burst happened inside the tank? Unlikely that personnel would have been outside the tank in proximity when it fired the round.
YashG
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

Manish_P wrote:Sad news

2 Indian Army soldiers have died in an accident at the Babina firing range when a T-90 tank's barrel burst during an exercise.

Source - @alpha_defense (twitter)

Om shanti
such incidents degrade soldier confidence in equipments. But this does seem an one off case. I'll await eagerly the results of inquiries into this.
ks_sachin
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Barrell bursts were an issue with the T72 and traced back to a f-up by the OFB. So OFB has past form on this front.
ks_sachin
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Manish_P wrote:Seems like that the barrel burst happened inside the tank? Unlikely that personnel would have been outside the tank in proximity when it fired the round.
A barrel burst happens when a round is fired for which the tank crew is inside. It happens because the barrel can bot withstand the pressure of the shell. People done stand in close proximity of a tank that is firing. They will go deaf!!

The barrel is the part of the gun you see outside the turret. At the wnd is the breech etc where the ahell is loaded.

3 casualties incl 2 fatalities tallies with the threeman crew of a tin can
Tanaji
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Tanaji »

When a barrel burst happens for an Indian product such as Dhanush or any other platform, the whole thing is immediately shipped off back to the designer for re evaluation followed by summer winter rainy full moon trials . Even when it is due to faulty ammunition by OFB.

Clearly such tender mercies are only for Indian products….

Btw this has nothing to do with new unproven design vs established product: Dhanush is a proven Bofors design…
Manish_P
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

A barrel burst happens when a round is fired for which the tank crew is inside. It happens because the barrel can bot withstand the pressure of the shell. People done stand in close proximity of a tank that is firing. They will go deaf!!
Agree that no infantry (nor observers) stand in proximity to a firing tank. But not all tank barrel bursts happen inside, near the breech. There have been instances where the barrel burst happened at the other end, sending shrapnel (shell as well as barrel metal) over large distances.
3 casualties incl 2 fatalities tallies with the threeman crew of a tin can
Yes. That point made me think it probably happened inside the turret.
ks_sachin
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Tanaji No. Have you read the saga of the t72 barrel bursts?
The barrels were forged by OFB.
These things kill and the army does not take them lightly. I have seen a tank with a barrel burst open at Ahmed Nagar and can only imagine the plight of the guys inside.
Dhanush barrel may have exploded but till there is a full COI how do we know it was the ammo. So it gets shipped back to the designer as they know the product and production process better than the user. Now the COI may find that it was ammo or otherwise but what would you have the army do?
Pratyush
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Pratyush
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

ks_sachin wrote: Snip.....
Now the COI may find that it was ammo or otherwise but what would you have the army do?
This is the tricky part. Because unless we know exactly what happened it's just all speculation.

IIRC, this seems to be first time a T90 barrel has burst in Indian service.
NRao
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

Pratyush wrote:....
Oct 8, 2022 Transformational technology. The Abrams X is a main battle tank for the next generation, featuring reduced weight for improved mobility and transportability and delivering the same tactical range as the M1A2 Abrams with 50% less fuel consumption. The AbramsX’s hybrid power pack supports the U.S. Army’s climate and electrification strategies, enhances silent watch capability and even allows for some silent mobility. With a reduced crew size and AI-enabled lethality, survivability, mobility, manned/unmanned teaming (MUM-T) and autonomous capabilities, AbramsX can be a key node in lethal battlefield networks and serve as a bridge from Abrams SEPv3 and SEPv4 to a future tank.
Manish_P
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Pratyush wrote:
IIRC, this seems to be first time a T90 barrel has burst in Indian service.
Not the first..

From 2019

T90 barrel bursts during Jaisalmer exercise
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/elitepredatorss/sta ... 7ci40xgE-w ---> Today's T-90 incident was a close call & very tragic one, we lost good people today. The gun shredded into pieces. If the explosion would have taken few milliseconds before, the tank would have gone up with all its ammo stack. Faulty ammo is the most likely cause.

https://twitter.com/timesofindia/status ... 7ci40xgE-w ---> Naib Risaldar Sumer Singh Bagaria & Sowar Sukanta Mondal lost their lives in the line of duty at Babina (UP) field firing ranges, when the barrel of a T-90 tank burst on October 6th.

Image

https://twitter.com/Sandeep_Mave/status ... 7ci40xgE-w ---> Naib Risaldar Sumer Singh Bagaria from Jhunjhunu, Rajasthan. He lost his life in a T-90 incident.

Image
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

I believe the ranks (in order of seniority from top to bottom) in the Armoured Corps are Daffadar, Lance Daffadar, Acting Lance Daffadar and Sowar. Their corresponding ranks in the infantry are Havildar, Naik, Lance Naik and Sepoy.
Manish_P
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

The news in itself is hard to take in.. but then you see the photos of the person's who lost their lives and it feels that much more horrific and sad.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Don’t pity them or feel sorry for them and then forget them.
If you really respect them give them a system that works and does not place their lives in jeopardy needlessly!!! A sentiment expressed to me a long time ago by someone in uniform.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

ks_sachin wrote:Don’t pity them or feel sorry for them and then forget them.
If you really respect them give them a system that works and does not place their lives in jeopardy needlessly!!! A sentiment expressed.to me a long time ago by someone in uniform.

While I am waiting for the COI to determine the exact cause of the accident.

I have to be harsh with the armoured corps. They have made their bed with the T90 in general. They now have to sleep in it.

Peace time accidents however tragic. Are going to pale into nothing ness every time it is penetrated by enemy fire.
Manish_P
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

^ sir, while the T90 has it's shares of issues (every weapon system has it's pros and cons), likely cause of issue here seems to be faulty Ammo. Barrel burst have happened in uber quality M1 Abrams as well. Let's see what the inquiry determines, if it is made public.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

That's not the main thrust of my argument.

The army had a choice to buy tanks that didn't have the deficiency inherent in the T90. But they went ahead and bought nearly 2000 tanks. While making the DRDO run arround with a list of improvements in Arjun.

While the DRDO was running around with list of improvement in Arjun. The T90 were being purchased with many of the same deficiencies identified in Arjun.

For the last 10 years we have been hearing from the army about the FMBT. They have been publishing SQR every 3 year's or so. With vehicles ranging from 40 tons to 58 tons. That too in SQR for a single vehicle.

As if it is a joke.

Today they have devised an SQR for the FRCV. I would say that it's a competitive and realistic SQR for the next 25 to 30 years. But as is typical of the army. They have not specified what performance they want form the main gun.

Bringing that gun to the front is the single purpose of the tank.

They also haven't decided is the domestic industry is going to be responsible for the program. Or they will be a part of a global program for ab initio development of the vehicle. Such as the Franco -German next generation tank program.

So the farce will continue.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Pratyush wrote:That's not the main thrust of my argument. .
...
Oh, ok.

I tend to agree with most of your points about the T90s vs the Arjun. I have expressed my frustrations about that saga in the past.
Here on BRF itself LCA, LCH, Arihant had their threads and they are in production now (with whatever low numbers). but the Arjuns thread has been totally buried or subsumed :-(
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Sorry Pratyush,

You r conflating 2 issues.

The barrel burst is not a design flaw. It is a manufacturing issue. So that has nothing to do with the step motherly treatment of the Arjun.

Arjun could have the same issue or faulty ammo issues as well.

As you have see a arty project that was literally dragged by the scruff of its neck by a former DG Arty also has been at the mercy of OFB vagaries!!!
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... 3OVSZTafTg ---> T-72 and T-90 to be equipped with new DRDO developed LWR for protection against attacks from Turkish TB-2 drones, etc.
So all the technologies developed by DRDO for Arjun are to be used to "upgrade" T-XYZ.

But not to buy Arjun :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

The one thing they should do is design a new autoloader which takes the round from the bustle.

If we are wedded to a crewless turret or a 3 man crew, we will need this.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by bharathp »

my 2 cents -
if the issue was indeed ammo, then its probably not something we can blame on the t-90 anyways
however, even if the issue was with the t-90, its still understood that there will be issues with any machine
the difference is, if it was ahome grown machine, we would have the in house skills to make improvements without having to pay an arm and a leg and keep the 2000 strong force on stand by while we run around trying to get it fixed by OEM

that said, our own ammo production doesnt really inspire much confidence.
I really hope every incident like this leads to improvement in the entire cycle from manufacturing, to user training to maintenance procedures.
Manish_P
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

ks_sachin wrote:The one thing they should do is design a new autoloader which takes the round from the bustle.

If we are wedded to a crewless turret or a 3 man crew, we will need this.
+1

I think the IA is strongly in favor of 3 man crew, and the future is very likely to be a MBT with a crewless turret (Armata-inspired).

Historically as tank armor got better (and heavier) the size of the main gun kept increasing and thereby the weight of the projectile itself. The limit to how much the manual loader can lift to slot into the breech will be reached soon..

Unless tech develops enough to have ultra compact rail gun with the projectile just needing to be a kinetic penetrator (with maybe a small antipersonnel warhead).
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