Is there something other than cool videos I missed?Pratyush wrote:You missed the thrust of the argument.ks_sachin wrote:The IDFs operational environment is different to ours
There is also more than deserts to op environment.
Is there something other than cool videos I missed?Pratyush wrote:You missed the thrust of the argument.ks_sachin wrote:The IDFs operational environment is different to ours
Perhaps. Although the heat was not raised as an issue by when I spoke to one of the tankers involved in the Arjun induction. It was more the doctrine and the op env which even some inf offers were concerned with.Manish_P wrote:Coolness of the videos aside, the tankers must have really appreciated the coolness provided by the AC unit of the Arjun.
ks_sachin wrote:Perhaps. Although the heat was not raised as an issue by when I spoke to one of the tankers involved in the Arjun induction. It was more the doctrine and the op env which even some inf offers were concerned with.Manish_P wrote:Coolness of the videos aside, the tankers must have really appreciated the coolness provided by the AC unit of the Arjun.
However the inf offer questioned the rationale for such a large armr force itself..
I agree it is a world-class tank as well...Atmavik wrote:ks_sachin wrote: Perhaps. Although the heat was not raised as an issue by when I spoke to one of the tankers involved in the Arjun induction. It was more the doctrine and the op env which even some inf offers were concerned with.
However the inf offer questioned the rationale for such a large armr force itself..
most of us might have seen these videos. i think this is the best discussion on Arjun though the video is from 2012 and speaks mostly to Mk1 . all the three panelists agree that the Arjun is a world class tank. @ 5:45 Brig bikramjeet singh says that the tank was designed and developed for the desert sector.
T 90 does not have an AC and heat is an issue in the deserts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-p9GnT7Goo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmeawATDOM4
Why do I get strong 'Yes, Minister' vibes...Atmavik wrote:...ks_sachin wrote: Perhaps. Although the heat was not raised as an issue by when I spoke to one of the tankers involved in the Arjun induction. It was more the doctrine and the op env which even some inf offers were concerned with...
T 90 does not have an AC and heat is an issue in the deserts...
CAG rejected the ministry’s reply that its decision of not importing the tanks fitted with ACs was based on trials in which detrimental effects of prolonged exposure to heat and dust were not noticed and they came to light only after they were inducted.
“The ministry’s reply is not factually correct. The trial team had already highlighted the instances of overheating of components noticed during field trials and recommended addition of ACs,” the report said.
The ministry, it noted, had also accepted the necessity for the tanks fitted with ACs as long back as 2002 but a later contract in 2007 still did not include ACs fitted in tanks.
The ministry was of the view that Indian commanders preferred to operate the vehicles with open cupolas which will limit the effectiveness of these ACs.
Sir Ji,ks_sachin wrote:Is there something other than cool videos I missed?Pratyush wrote:
You missed the thrust of the argument.
There is also more than deserts to op environment.
Pratyush Ji,Pratyush wrote:Sir Ji,ks_sachin wrote:
Is there something other than cool videos I missed?
There is also more than deserts to op environment.
The argument is about domestic vehicle and the capability developed would have resulted in a whole host of other vehicles. For other environments.
Philip wrote:If Arjun as the brigadier said was developed for the deserts,there should be good export potential for it throughout the ME. Right from N.Africa,
snip the rest........
yes, this has ruled out any western and Armata imports.srai wrote:^^^
If true for Arjuns then also true for Western heavies
So as late as 2019, 60% of the T-90 was importedIndia has awarded a $3.12 billion contract for local production of 464 T-90S main battle tanks after paying a technology transfer fee to Russia.
The deal stipulates that Russian original equipment manufacturer UralVagonZavod and arms export agency Rosoboronexport will be paid $1.2 billion for technology transfer, while India’s state-owned Ordnance Factory Board will be paid $1.92 billion for local production of 464 T-90S tanks, according to an Indian Ministry of Defence official. India will pay the Russian defense companies in roubles, Russia’s currency. The MoD official described the price tag of the technology transfer as too high, noting that domestic production of the tanks will increase to 80 percent from the current level of 40 percent.
and this little but significant nuggetA senior OFB executive said complete localization of T-90S tanks in India is impossible, as a large number of parts must continue to be imported. The parts that will be locally produced include panoramic night sights, thermal imaging fire-control systems and explosive reactive armor, he added. However, the engines and transmission system that makes up 45 percent of the cost of a T-90S tank will come from Russia.
Now where have we heard this before.. ah yes, Retd. Air Marshall Chopra had made a similar comment about the MiG 29 costs overtaking the Mirage 2000 costs within a period of 5 years...A senior Indian Army official said greater localization of the tank does not significantly help because life cycle support is not included. Because of this, the official argued, the service ends up paying three times more than the original cost of the tank.
Xcpts:The deployability issueThe Arjun tank, first envisaged in 1972, was meant to replace the Russian T-72 that is still in service. It was meant to weigh just 48 tonnes but eventually ended up weighing 62 tonnes. The latest version weighs 68.5 tonnes.
But would one entirely blame the Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) for this? The blame also goes to the Army, because over the years it ended up wanting more and more from the tank — from bigger guns to better armour. The joke in the defence corridors being that the Army wanted a tank that could even fly!
Arjun has a combination of systems but as a single entity, faces many challenges, primarily due to its weight and width.
Former Director General Mechanised Forces Lt Gen A.B. Shivane (Retd) tells me that the greatest challenge for Arjun is its deployability and restricted employability in open desert terrain — all because of its weight.
“It lacks operational and strategic mobility which limits its employment options besides sustenance and logistics challenges,” he told me.
Colonel Ajay Singh (retd), an Armoured Corps Officer, who has seen the Arjun MBT in action, tells me that the indigenous system is a beautiful machine. The Arjun MBT has an excellent 120 mm rifled gun, and a fine fire and control system, he says. Singh is all praise for Arjun’s ergonomics, saying that it provides the crew most comfort and ease of operation.
“But the 68 tonnes is too heavy for it to have any strategic mobility,” Col Singh says, adding that contrary to the belief that the tank is apt for deserts, it is more suited for semi-desert terrains.
Globally, the trend in Western nations is to build heavier, bigger MBTs that give more fire power and protection to the crew. This, despite the fact that there is an increasing focus on new warfare. The recent conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia showed what the future of warfare would be, along with the reduced operational capabilities of traditional war fighting machines.
But Robert Bateman, military historian and former US Army officer, argues that the Nagorno-Karabakh skirmishing doesn’t tell us anything about the death of armor.
“All it shows is two incompetently trained and equipped military forces that left themselves clumsily open, and the power of quickly produced video making extravagant claims in the social media age,” he said.
You are again comparing upgrade costs and incorrectly asserting them to be directly proportional to operating and life cycle costs. In any case IAF discussion is OT for this thread so my bad.Philip wrote:As a counter,MIG-29 vs M2K, upgrade costs,64 nos. of 29s cost just under $1 B at around $13/14M a pop,whereas 54 M2Ks cost , staggering $2.5 B , that's around $50M a pop,more than a brand new MIG-35,Tejas,etc., with HAL demanding extra labour costs over and above hhat figure leading to a spat between the IAF and HAL.
These are all open source/ official figures,so work out the lifetime costs again.
...
This is regularly scheduled programming for some posters here but they are allowed to exist and troll on the forum irrespectivePratyush wrote:Philip,
Repeating a lie 1000 times to make it the truth??
Arjun was not started in 72 to replace the Tandoor 72. Any one says otherwise is ignorant at best and a liar at worst.
Rest is of the post is pure BS. Piled on BS upon BS.
Remember that all major tank battles except Longewal took place in Punjab and erstwhile state of J&K.ks_sachin wrote:The GSQRs were drawn up based on what we foresaw would be required in the desert and the threat perception. High Altitude would not be part of that.
You would not have this kind of GSQR for both environments.....one gets the
I don’t differentiate between Punjab and Deserts to the extent I do with High Altitude vs Low AltitudePratyush wrote:Remember that all major tank battles except Longewal took place in Punjab and erstwhile state of J&K.ks_sachin wrote:The GSQRs were drawn up based on what we foresaw would be required in the desert and the threat perception. High Altitude would not be part of that.
You would not have this kind of GSQR for both environments.....one gets the
So any tank that would work in Punjab and erstwhile J&K will have to work in Desert and vice versa. So why this persistent statements about the tank specially designed to fight in the desert.
This makes no real sense.
Especially keeping in view that all major western tanks were designed to fight in an environment similar to Punjab and erstwhile J&K.
This is the most logical comment I have seen on BRF on the desert and plains topic.ks_sachin wrote: I don’t differentiate between Punjab and Deserts to the extent I do with High Altitude vs Low Altitude
Desert and Punjab same same
this is the most perplexing part. it almost seems like the armour is on the back burner. we now have a clear path to replace the mig 21 but what abt the t 72 ?. i hope we are not short sighted here.Pratyush wrote:Atmavik,
Even today we have not seen the army release any GSQR for a new tank, ICV or APC. They had nearly 30 years to develop that since the early 90's.
That is because our entire army is a CI army. There is a whole cadre of officers who have only done CI with the tempo that there is it leaves little time for other doctrinal discourcesAtmavik wrote:this is the most perplexing part. it almost seems like the armour is on the back burner. we now have a clear path to replace the mig 21 but what abt the t 72 ?. i hope we are not short sighted here.Pratyush wrote:Atmavik,
Even today we have not seen the army release any GSQR for a new tank, ICV or APC. They had nearly 30 years to develop that since the early 90's.
the current focus seems to be on Mijjiles
this image is a tweet from an officail IA handle
When we start decommissioning the t-72 perhaps we should start considering number plating some of our Armd Regts or making them mechanised. A like for like will not be the thing to consider but an overall doctrinal change.Prasad wrote:Not a priority? When do we start retiring our T-72s btw? And how long will it take to deliver the FMBT after winter, summer, monsoon, drdo, user, aucrt, high altitude winter, high altitude summer, acceptance, trials?
Prasad wrote:Not a priority? When do we start retiring our T-72s btw? And how long will it take to deliver the FMBT after winter, summer, monsoon, drdo, user, aucrt, high altitude winter, high altitude summer, acceptance, trials?