Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Admiral any update on the new engine for the Arjun?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... s?from=mdr
1) Army wanted all 354 light tanks to be Make-1. So here is the catch. Make-I is technically IDDM but the Indian registered entity need not be owned by Indians. So, it can be a 51:49 type of ownership. L&T wanted to screwdriver-giri Hanwha Defense's light tank. They also wanted to partner with DRDO for the light-tank. I am not sure if the Hanwha deal (like K-9 Vajra) can be pulled off under Make-I. It will be a travesty, if that happens
2) After DRDO said they will rollout 1st prototype by 2023, the MoD has arm-twisted the Army into accepting a piddly 59 tanks from DRDO
3) The remaining 295 will be through Make-1, in which DRDO can also compete. But we all know how that will end up
This doesn't seem to be a good way to go about it:
a) The DRDO tank is ready and prototype rollout is 2023. An ab-initio design by someone like L&T who has never built a tank before, will take a long while
b) The situation is hot at the LAC and we were caught navel gazing (in spite of being pioneers in the use of light tanks in Ladakh), thanks to our fantasizing about T-90s against Pakistan. We needed these tanks 2 years ago
c) If the Army wants to help build a private sector MIC (no doubt a lofty goal), then a cleaner way to do it is to opt for say the DRDO-L&T JV. Or pick Kalyani. Order can be split between HVF Avadi and L&T. The latter will get 100% ToT from DRDO instead of the 50% if they go the Hanwha route. Plus their learning curve will be much faster, because DRDO will be inclined to handhold them, while Hanwha will have zero incentive to do so
d) The next iteration of the light tank can have L&T (or Kalyani or someone else) pitching their own ideas, if the have successfully absorbed the tech and are starting to bring their own innovations
In areas like artillery where a truly private player (Kalyani) offers a plethora of products, the Army makes them beg & crawl. But when it comes to the light tank, even when a DRDO product is almost ready, they suddenly want to encourage the private industry which has no expertise.
Do they think that MAD & Jaishankar will talk the Chinese out of the current impasse & therefore they don't need to prepare for war?
1) Army wanted all 354 light tanks to be Make-1. So here is the catch. Make-I is technically IDDM but the Indian registered entity need not be owned by Indians. So, it can be a 51:49 type of ownership. L&T wanted to screwdriver-giri Hanwha Defense's light tank. They also wanted to partner with DRDO for the light-tank. I am not sure if the Hanwha deal (like K-9 Vajra) can be pulled off under Make-I. It will be a travesty, if that happens
2) After DRDO said they will rollout 1st prototype by 2023, the MoD has arm-twisted the Army into accepting a piddly 59 tanks from DRDO
3) The remaining 295 will be through Make-1, in which DRDO can also compete. But we all know how that will end up
This doesn't seem to be a good way to go about it:
a) The DRDO tank is ready and prototype rollout is 2023. An ab-initio design by someone like L&T who has never built a tank before, will take a long while
b) The situation is hot at the LAC and we were caught navel gazing (in spite of being pioneers in the use of light tanks in Ladakh), thanks to our fantasizing about T-90s against Pakistan. We needed these tanks 2 years ago
c) If the Army wants to help build a private sector MIC (no doubt a lofty goal), then a cleaner way to do it is to opt for say the DRDO-L&T JV. Or pick Kalyani. Order can be split between HVF Avadi and L&T. The latter will get 100% ToT from DRDO instead of the 50% if they go the Hanwha route. Plus their learning curve will be much faster, because DRDO will be inclined to handhold them, while Hanwha will have zero incentive to do so
d) The next iteration of the light tank can have L&T (or Kalyani or someone else) pitching their own ideas, if the have successfully absorbed the tech and are starting to bring their own innovations
In areas like artillery where a truly private player (Kalyani) offers a plethora of products, the Army makes them beg & crawl. But when it comes to the light tank, even when a DRDO product is almost ready, they suddenly want to encourage the private industry which has no expertise.
Do they think that MAD & Jaishankar will talk the Chinese out of the current impasse & therefore they don't need to prepare for war?
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
No just lack of vision and planning, structural issues with procurement, and corruption.Prem Kumar wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... s?from=mdr
1) Army wanted all 354 light tanks to be Make-1. So here is the catch. Make-I is technically IDDM but the Indian registered entity need not be owned by Indians. So, it can be a 51:49 type of ownership. L&T wanted to screwdriver-giri Hanwha Defense's light tank. They also wanted to partner with DRDO for the light-tank. I am not sure if the Hanwha deal (like K-9 Vajra) can be pulled off under Make-I. It will be a travesty, if that happens
2) After DRDO said they will rollout 1st prototype by 2023, the MoD has arm-twisted the Army into accepting a piddly 59 tanks from DRDO
3) The remaining 295 will be through Make-1, in which DRDO can also compete. But we all know how that will end up
This doesn't seem to be a good way to go about it:
a) The DRDO tank is ready and prototype rollout is 2023. An ab-initio design by someone like L&T who has never built a tank before, will take a long while
b) The situation is hot at the LAC and we were caught navel gazing (in spite of being pioneers in the use of light tanks in Ladakh), thanks to our fantasizing about T-90s against Pakistan. We needed these tanks 2 years ago
c) If the Army wants to help build a private sector MIC (no doubt a lofty goal), then a cleaner way to do it is to opt for say the DRDO-L&T JV. Or pick Kalyani. Order can be split between HVF Avadi and L&T. The latter will get 100% ToT from DRDO instead of the 50% if they go the Hanwha route. Plus their learning curve will be much faster, because DRDO will be inclined to handhold them, while Hanwha will have zero incentive to do so
d) The next iteration of the light tank can have L&T (or Kalyani or someone else) pitching their own ideas, if the have successfully absorbed the tech and are starting to bring their own innovations
In areas like artillery where a truly private player (Kalyani) offers a plethora of products, the Army makes them beg & crawl. But when it comes to the light tank, even when a DRDO product is almost ready, they suddenly want to encourage the private industry which has no expertise.
Do they think that MAD & Jaishankar will talk the Chinese out of the current impasse & therefore they don't need to prepare for war?
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Where is this DRDO light tank?
Has anyone seen a picture of this?
Has anyone seen a picture of this?
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Prototype yet to rollout. So, no one has seen it yet.
The design should be complete by now because they were talking about development going in in full swing & planning a mid-2023 rollout. L&T was even involved in the design, though its sketchy as to what actual role they played.
RFI was issued in April 2021 itself
https://www.makeinindiadefence.gov.in/a ... ebsite.pdf
The design should be complete by now because they were talking about development going in in full swing & planning a mid-2023 rollout. L&T was even involved in the design, though its sketchy as to what actual role they played.
RFI was issued in April 2021 itself
https://www.makeinindiadefence.gov.in/a ... ebsite.pdf
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Nice summary.Prem Kumar wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... s?from=mdr
1) Army wanted all 354 light tanks to be Make-1. So here is the catch. Make-I is technically IDDM but the Indian registered entity need not be owned by Indians. So, it can be a 51:49 type of ownership. L&T wanted to screwdriver-giri Hanwha Defense's light tank. They also wanted to partner with DRDO for the light-tank. I am not sure if the Hanwha deal (like K-9 Vajra) can be pulled off under Make-I. It will be a travesty, if that happens
2) After DRDO said they will rollout 1st prototype by 2023, the MoD has arm-twisted the Army into accepting a piddly 59 tanks from DRDO
3) The remaining 295 will be through Make-1, in which DRDO can also compete. But we all know how that will end up
This doesn't seem to be a good way to go about it:
a) The DRDO tank is ready and prototype rollout is 2023. An ab-initio design by someone like L&T who has never built a tank before, will take a long while
b) The situation is hot at the LAC and we were caught navel gazing (in spite of being pioneers in the use of light tanks in Ladakh), thanks to our fantasizing about T-90s against Pakistan. We needed these tanks 2 years ago
c) If the Army wants to help build a private sector MIC (no doubt a lofty goal), then a cleaner way to do it is to opt for say the DRDO-L&T JV. Or pick Kalyani. Order can be split between HVF Avadi and L&T. The latter will get 100% ToT from DRDO instead of the 50% if they go the Hanwha route. Plus their learning curve will be much faster, because DRDO will be inclined to handhold them, while Hanwha will have zero incentive to do so
d) The next iteration of the light tank can have L&T (or Kalyani or someone else) pitching their own ideas, if the have successfully absorbed the tech and are starting to bring their own innovations
In areas like artillery where a truly private player (Kalyani) offers a plethora of products, the Army makes them beg & crawl. But when it comes to the light tank, even when a DRDO product is almost ready, they suddenly want to encourage the private industry which has no expertise.
Do they think that MAD & Jaishankar will talk the Chinese out of the current impasse & therefore they don't need to prepare for war?
I almost couldn’t believe my eyes when I was reading today’s report about the 60+300 unit order split. Always the most absurd and convoluted approaches are proposed by Indian MoD and rarely if ever do they actually come to be
So they say they want to encourage private sector, well who is the development partner for the DRDO light tank? What’s wrong with the WhAP/ATAGS approach? Drdo+ private sector design/test and private sector produce?
The ONLY explanation is the IA refused to budge until foreign OEMs could take part (via Make-1 process)
Who will undertake the investment and effort to create a light tank for less than 300 units? No one. So they’ll have to tie up with foreign companies and then rebadge them aka Kalyani M4
And the DRDO light tank earmarked for only 60 units will become another Arjun, declared too expensive and the worst (light) tank in the world because it stands between the IA and foreign $$.
Even if this plan works out (20 years later) a fleet of just 60 will be white elephants that are too costly to operate, what sensible war ready army would ever sanction something as ridiculous as this?
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
From various news report so far:
This is going to be a Hanwha K9 with a John Cockerill 105 MM Turret. Anybody knows what engine or transmission it proposes to use?
How is it going to be indigenous if everything is just assembled?
Did i really ask that? There we go again.....
This is going to be a Hanwha K9 with a John Cockerill 105 MM Turret. Anybody knows what engine or transmission it proposes to use?
How is it going to be indigenous if everything is just assembled?
Did i really ask that? There we go again.....
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Such a stupidity...only in India does this kind of bullshit happen. Like I said, no vision, piss poor planning, and collusion between civil service, arms dealers, and IA procurement guys. Make a joke of tax payer money, national security, and GoI atmanirbhar initiative.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
The K9 chassis design was discarded because it will not meet the RFI requirement of being < 25 tonnes. Unless Hanwha is offering a new design which weighs less
Secondly, why would the Govt fund (via Make-I) a foreign design when it explicitly states that Make-I has to be IDDM only. This will be an interesting space to watch. If they pull this stunt, the whole "Make-I IDDM" will be a travesty, considering that they have a Make-II that allows for foreign collaboration
Secondly, why would the Govt fund (via Make-I) a foreign design when it explicitly states that Make-I has to be IDDM only. This will be an interesting space to watch. If they pull this stunt, the whole "Make-I IDDM" will be a travesty, considering that they have a Make-II that allows for foreign collaboration
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
The devil is always in the details. We may assume the intent of the rules but there are plenty of loopholesPrem Kumar wrote:The K9 chassis design was discarded because it will not meet the RFI requirement of being < 25 tonnes. Unless Hanwha is offering a new design which weighs less
Secondly, why would the Govt fund (via Make-I) a foreign design when it explicitly states that Make-I has to be IDDM only. This will be an interesting space to watch. If they pull this stunt, the whole "Make-I IDDM" will be a travesty, considering that they have a Make-II that allows for foreign collaboration
Has the negative import list stopped talk about the ATHOS? Now they’ll ship the parts to india, assemble and declare it atmanirbharat. Look at the spectacle around the Kaylani M4.
You have yourself pointed out the obvious workarounds in the make 1 process that leaves the door open for foreign designs. And frankly who would invest the effort and capital in designing and validating a clean sheet product when they can readily tie up with any global OEM and market their designs? How much R&D do Indian private defence companies actually do? And a production run of just 300 units hardly makes such an investment justified.
This is clearly just the IA’s way of getting a foreign product otherwise they wouldn’t be splitting the requirement DNC would say they’ll get all 350 from DRDO-L&T
This has all the makings of another FICV. Fanfare and promises but going nowhere. Just like MRFA and P75I.
I’m almost certain that’s the intent, they want to dangle these mega deals to the world’s shadiest of industries. Once a deal is closed the scope to pocket $$ disappears.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
There’s a well entrenched ecosystem, did we really think it would disappear after 70 years of work? The travesty is that the PMO continues to let these spectacles play out. Since 2014 Indian defence procurement has barely changed, there’s not been a dramatic increase in capacityRoyG wrote:Such a stupidity...only in India does this kind of bullshit happen. Like I said, no vision, piss poor planning, and collusion between civil service, arms dealers, and IA procurement guys. Make a joke of tax payer money, national security, and GoI atmanirbhar initiative.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Yes. I've mentioned previously that loopholes are built into this like the emergency procurement. You can pretty much justify any buy. Just depends on the creativity of the persons framing the requirement.KSingh wrote:There’s a well entrenched ecosystem, did we really think it would disappear after 70 years of work? The travesty is that the PMO continues to let these spectacles play out. Since 2014 Indian defence procurement has barely changed, there’s not been a dramatic increase in capacityRoyG wrote:Such a stupidity...only in India does this kind of bullshit happen. Like I said, no vision, piss poor planning, and collusion between civil service, arms dealers, and IA procurement guys. Make a joke of tax payer money, national security, and GoI atmanirbhar initiative.
This is really the problem with the atmanirbhar initiative. By the time you indigenize all the major tech of today, it will already have been superceded by the tech of tom. There simply aren't any incentives to really conduct the r&d and the rules of the game are poorly framed. It's the product of collusion between bureaucrats, military, and arms dealers.
It becomes even worse because staggering the orders is intentionally done so the request and contract have to be reissued and the price goes up. This collusive entity simply makes more money and the preparedness goes down.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Yep. Break every requirement up into multiple deals= multiple revenue streams for the babus/generals in chargeRoyG wrote:Yes. I've mentioned previously that loopholes are built into this like the emergency procurement. You can pretty much justify any buy. Just depends on the creativity of the persons framing the requirement.KSingh wrote: There’s a well entrenched ecosystem, did we really think it would disappear after 70 years of work? The travesty is that the PMO continues to let these spectacles play out. Since 2014 Indian defence procurement has barely changed, there’s not been a dramatic increase in capacity
This is really the problem with the atmanirbhar initiative. By the time you indigenize all the major tech of today, it will already have been superceded by the tech of tom. There simply aren't any incentives to really conduct the r&d and the rules of the game are poorly framed. It's the product of collusion between bureaucrats, military, and arms dealers.
It becomes even worse because staggering the orders is intentionally done so the request and contract have to be reissued and the price goes up. This collusive entity simply makes more money and the preparedness goes down.
Rifles, LMGs, arty, tanks etc etc when was the last time they gave the full requirement to one bid? They break them up into 2-3 separate bids now so there’s always an avenue to keep the foreign OEMs flooding them with $$$
UPA era corruption just got more subtle under NDA, utter shame on PMO
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
FICV and Light Tanks for the Indian Army, cleared by the DAC
https://www.financialexpress.com/india- ... s/2923809/
They cleared 22 other proposals including Naval Anti-Ship Missiles, Multi-Purpose Vessels, Next Generation Offshore Patrol Vessels (for the Indian Coast Guard) and new range of missile system, Long Range Guided Bombs.
https://www.financialexpress.com/india- ... s/2923809/
They cleared 22 other proposals including Naval Anti-Ship Missiles, Multi-Purpose Vessels, Next Generation Offshore Patrol Vessels (for the Indian Coast Guard) and new range of missile system, Long Range Guided Bombs.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Much welcome news from the honorable RM!
But I will believe these DAC pronouncements (AONs) when we see actual orders. For reference: the DAC in 2018 cleared the ATAGS order for 150 units. Four years later, the order is yet to be placed!
But I will believe these DAC pronouncements (AONs) when we see actual orders. For reference: the DAC in 2018 cleared the ATAGS order for 150 units. Four years later, the order is yet to be placed!
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Babus are definitely dipping into gravy train. PMO consolidated a lot of decision making during other years, now that PMO is preparing for elections, there is not much shepherding happening on atma-nirbhar. Im guessing RM is also busy in elections - I cant blame him. As it is RM's political turf is fully usurped by yogi and RM is definitely on a shaky political base, so he cant afford to put much time into defense matters or else he will be upstaged when next govt comes - it would be same modi sarkar thats not in doubt.KSingh wrote:
Rifles, LMGs, arty, tanks etc etc when was the last time they gave the full requirement to one bid? They break them up into 2-3 separate bids now so there’s always an avenue to keep the foreign OEMs flooding them with $$$
UPA era corruption just got more subtle under NDA, utter shame on PMO
The ugly side of political democracies is this, national security matters will take a backstage to internal politics. Appointment of someone like Jaishankar would have been very good in this case. Jaishankar has no political base to save and he is a fulltime FM. We need a fulltime RM too. I would resolutely pray that Modi does a Jaishankar for defence too. That will set right the whole MoD for years to come. Our indigenous efforts are on a vital cusp. A fulltime RM is desperately needed. While Government goes in election mode, someone can take care of defense affairs.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Kalyani/Paramount Mbombe 4 in Africa.Very heavy beasts + wheeled may mean such circumstances.(Trade off between excellent protection/ weight)
This is ideal Sarath country.
Images shared by Viet Nam Twitter user: @AnnQuann
Ff to around 15min mark to know the terrain and the challenge
Also some good images of the Sarath in the element, from the internet:
This is ideal Sarath country.
Images shared by Viet Nam Twitter user: @AnnQuann
Ff to around 15min mark to know the terrain and the challenge
Also some good images of the Sarath in the element, from the internet:
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
I disagreeRoyG wrote:Such a stupidity...only in India does this kind of bullshit happen. Like I said, no vision, piss poor planning, and collusion between civil service, arms dealers, and IA procurement guys. Make a joke of tax payer money, national security, and GoI atmanirbhar initiative.
This is no stupidity.
This is a perfect plan to show that we are encouraging local design and manufacture. In reality the powers-that-be will put up such excellent hurdles that it is will be impossible to meet the deadlines.
Finally. Emergency Purchase !!!!!
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Are there any ready made products available off-the-shelf ?
Russian Sprut ?
Russian Sprut ?
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Sprut was disqualified by the Indian Army a few years ago.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/k21_105.htm
This procurement project seems customer designed for the Hanwa K21-105. The only thing it needs is a 100 hp power plant.
Cockrill 105 turret.
1000 HP engine.
Under 25 tons.
I am surprised by the lack or originality from the Indian army.
How do they know that this tank will be able to defeat the type 99 tanks on the battlefield?
Or the Indian Army is expecting that the PRC will issue a challenge on megaphone asking Indian army to send a T 90. If they are deploying Type 99.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3625.html
RUAG, has a 120 mm compact tank gun for armoured vehicles in the 25 ton class. Capable of firing all modern 120 mm rounds.
The army didn't ask for a vehicle fitted with this gun.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/k21_105.htm
This procurement project seems customer designed for the Hanwa K21-105. The only thing it needs is a 100 hp power plant.
Cockrill 105 turret.
1000 HP engine.
Under 25 tons.
I am surprised by the lack or originality from the Indian army.
How do they know that this tank will be able to defeat the type 99 tanks on the battlefield?
Or the Indian Army is expecting that the PRC will issue a challenge on megaphone asking Indian army to send a T 90. If they are deploying Type 99.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3625.html
RUAG, has a 120 mm compact tank gun for armoured vehicles in the 25 ton class. Capable of firing all modern 120 mm rounds.
The army didn't ask for a vehicle fitted with this gun.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Pratyush,
Are you privy perhaps to the offensive / defensive planning that has been put into place for Ladakh / Tibetean plateau?
If yes great and all the differs in Armr Directorate should be sacked.
Are you privy perhaps to the offensive / defensive planning that has been put into place for Ladakh / Tibetean plateau?
If yes great and all the differs in Armr Directorate should be sacked.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Where the option exists to accomplish something within the weight specified.
Explicitly ruling it out is not the smartest thing to do.
Explicitly ruling it out is not the smartest thing to do.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Do we necessarily need a tank to counter Chini tanks
What about a smallish truck with a dozen ATGMs ?
Something like this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Horn ... g_2363.jpg
What about a smallish truck with a dozen ATGMs ?
Something like this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Horn ... g_2363.jpg
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Not sure I understand.Pratyush wrote:Where the option exists to accomplish something within the weight specified.
Explicitly ruling it out is not the smartest thing to do.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Kersi wrote:Do we necessarily need a tank to counter Chini tanks
What about a smallish truck with a dozen ATGMs ?
Something like this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Horn ... g_2363.jpg
No and we have been building our defences for a long time. Surely if IA appreciates the role or armr in the AoR then it understands the risks Chinese armr poses and has plans in place to counter?
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
The light tanks are not meant to take on heavy PLA tanks. They may be used for offensive action of our own into PLA territory. Being light, would allow them to be deployed in possibly an easier manner, as compared to MBTs. Also, the requirement of the high powered engine and high weight to torque ratio is for high mobility and to negate the effect of engine derating at high altitudes.Pratyush wrote:Sprut was disqualified by the Indian Army a few years ago.
http://www.military-today.com/tanks/k21_105.htm
This procurement project seems customer designed for the Hanwa K21-105. The only thing it needs is a 100 hp power plant.
Cockrill 105 turret.
1000 HP engine.
Under 25 tons.
I am surprised by the lack or originality from the Indian army.
How do they know that this tank will be able to defeat the type 99 tanks on the battlefield?
Or the Indian Army is expecting that the PRC will issue a challenge on megaphone asking Indian army to send a T 90. If they are deploying Type 99.
http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product3625.html
RUAG, has a 120 mm compact tank gun for armoured vehicles in the 25 ton class. Capable of firing all modern 120 mm rounds.
The army didn't ask for a vehicle fitted with this gun.
Personally, I am not much for the light tank concept. But IA probably thinks, it can capture some areas and use them as a bargaining chip.
The light tanks would be easy targets for ATGMs and also for drones.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
There was recently some news about AVNL (erst while OFB), experimenting with putting a T90 turret on a T72 chassis. What is the purpose of this kind of an exercise?
Is there a major difference between the T72 and T90 chassis? I thought most of the changes are in the turret between the two tanks.
There was also talk of replacing the T72 engine with the T90 engine, now that we are producing bot the engines indigenously. If the engine and the turret is replaced, the T72 essentially becomes the T90. Maybe this could be an attempt to upgrade the T72s to the T90 standard, while being cheaper than new build T90 tanks.
Is there a major difference between the T72 and T90 chassis? I thought most of the changes are in the turret between the two tanks.
There was also talk of replacing the T72 engine with the T90 engine, now that we are producing bot the engines indigenously. If the engine and the turret is replaced, the T72 essentially becomes the T90. Maybe this could be an attempt to upgrade the T72s to the T90 standard, while being cheaper than new build T90 tanks.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
In war, the enemy always has a vote. It will always have the ability to surprise us.
Because, he has sustained the deployment of his MBT on the Tibetan plateau against the Indian T90s post galwan for nearly one year.
In this context, if the army still thinks that the light tank will never ever face the Type 99. Then it makes sense to go for 105 mm main gun.
But, if there is even a 10 % chance that the Indian light tank can run into the PLA MBT. Even by accident, then the light tank must have the 120 mm main gun.
Because, he has sustained the deployment of his MBT on the Tibetan plateau against the Indian T90s post galwan for nearly one year.
In this context, if the army still thinks that the light tank will never ever face the Type 99. Then it makes sense to go for 105 mm main gun.
But, if there is even a 10 % chance that the Indian light tank can run into the PLA MBT. Even by accident, then the light tank must have the 120 mm main gun.
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Has the Army tried deploying Arjun in that terrain? Publically at least they haven't.
They bought the Vajra for "a" specific kind of terrain, Chinis showed some aankh, Army "experimented" with the Vajra deployment there, loved it and now are ordering 100 more with cold weather kits.
What keeps them from trying the same with the Arjun?
It is the best tank in this part of the world by far.It may even force the Chinis to do an emergency procurement.
They bought the Vajra for "a" specific kind of terrain, Chinis showed some aankh, Army "experimented" with the Vajra deployment there, loved it and now are ordering 100 more with cold weather kits.
What keeps them from trying the same with the Arjun?
It is the best tank in this part of the world by far.It may even force the Chinis to do an emergency procurement.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
That is an interesting view. The MTU 838 powering the Arjun is a turbo diesel.
It should be able to maintain power rating at those altitudes.
It should be able to maintain power rating at those altitudes.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
few private firms collaborating and currently testing 800 HP, 1500HP, 2200HP MTU all three are DOHC(double overhead cam) 4 valve per cylinder CRDI (common rail direct injection) stifle that yawn 4 stage variable timing turbo+super charger(yeah ain't a typo it is 4 stage variable timing turbo) displacement in CC is 1.8cc for 800HP, 2.2cc for 1500HP and 2200HP basically normal passenger car engine size MTUs. engine wise we are good another good news they plan to upgrade replace and install 2200HP ones in all Arjun's MBT. personally speaking am absolutely against Light Tanks but i ain't the end user IA is they must have proper reasonPratyush wrote:That is an interesting view. The MTU 838 powering the Arjun is a turbo diesel.
It should be able to maintain power rating at those altitudes.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
I think by now we would have roads that can transport Arjun to the frontline? Do we?
It will be game changer in few plane area (tank territory)- Depsang, Demchok. Some area maybe tough given terrain and connectivity - all roads and bridges will have to be 70-ton qualified (and tunnels broad enough), maybe more if the tanks are transported atop a vehicle. That may be tough. It may not be airlifted (while 20 tons less weight T-90- can).
It will be game changer in few plane area (tank territory)- Depsang, Demchok. Some area maybe tough given terrain and connectivity - all roads and bridges will have to be 70-ton qualified (and tunnels broad enough), maybe more if the tanks are transported atop a vehicle. That may be tough. It may not be airlifted (while 20 tons less weight T-90- can).
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
It’s pretty clear why they are moving expeditiously for more K9s but had to be forced to take even 1 tranche of MK1AMeshaVishwas wrote:Has the Army tried deploying Arjun in that terrain? Publically at least they haven't.
They bought the Vajra for "a" specific kind of terrain, Chinis showed some aankh, Army "experimented" with the Vajra deployment there, loved it and now are ordering 100 more with cold weather kits.
What keeps them from trying the same with the Arjun?
It is the best tank in this part of the world by far.It may even force the Chinis to do an emergency procurement.
the utter disdain that the Arjun program is treated with by the IA says it all.
The light tank boondoggle is going to consume the next 10+ years whilst the PLA bring all their toys to the front.
Even after all the billions poured into infrastructure development at the frontiers the IA will still proclaim the Arjun isn’t suitable for their mobility requirements.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
The Arjun is dead. It makes no economic sence to have a couple of Armd Regts with this.
Or change the main gun to 125mm. Put in a bustle mounted autoloader like Leclerc etc.
Rifled 120mm was a mistake IMHO.
Reduce it to 3 man crew.
Get the indian powerpack in. Where is that by the way.
Otherwise the tank is useless and being posted to those 4 or 5 Armd Regts will be seen as career limiting.
Or change the main gun to 125mm. Put in a bustle mounted autoloader like Leclerc etc.
Rifled 120mm was a mistake IMHO.
Reduce it to 3 man crew.
Get the indian powerpack in. Where is that by the way.
Otherwise the tank is useless and being posted to those 4 or 5 Armd Regts will be seen as career limiting.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Have never heard of a 2,200HP engine under development or a plan to replace the MTU 838 engine with a 2,200 HP engine on the Arjun. The 1,500 HP Bharat Powerpack engine has been developed and is under testing. Once the tests are over, this will be the engine used to power the 118 Arjun MK1A. Subsequently may replace the MTU 838 1,400 HP engine on the 124 Arjun MK1s. The old Arjuns will most likely also be upgraded to the MK1A standard.niran wrote:few private firms collaborating and currently testing 800 HP, 1500HP, 2200HP MTU all three are DOHC(double overhead cam) 4 valve per cylinder CRDI (common rail direct injection) stifle that yawn 4 stage variable timing turbo+super charger(yeah ain't a typo it is 4 stage variable timing turbo) displacement in CC is 1.8cc for 800HP, 2.2cc for 1500HP and 2200HP basically normal passenger car engine size MTUs. engine wise we are good another good news they plan to upgrade replace and install 2200HP ones in all Arjun's MBT. personally speaking am absolutely against Light Tanks but i ain't the end user IA is they must have proper reasonPratyush wrote:That is an interesting view. The MTU 838 powering the Arjun is a turbo diesel.
It should be able to maintain power rating at those altitudes.
Any official or otherwise source for this 2,200 HP engine?
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
The Defender : Tanks Vs Light Tanks | 07 January, 2023
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Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Hope this is not another wild goose chase:
Autoloader for MBT Arjun
I hope the Army is not dreamy eyed about the LeClerc and now want a desi LeClerc at 40% off or whatever.
Autoloader for MBT Arjun
I hope the Army is not dreamy eyed about the LeClerc and now want a desi LeClerc at 40% off or whatever.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1612092520862978048
Saurav Jha
@SJha1618
Anyway, the Nag anti-tank guided missile along with the NAMICA (together NAMIS) has finally been inducted into the Indian Army. These are file pics of the NAMICA. The production variant has a few new accoutrements.
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
You do need them If you go on the offensive and the best way to counter them is to go on the offensive.Kersi wrote:Do we necessarily need a tank to counter Chini tanks
What about a smallish truck with a dozen ATGMs ?
Something like this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Horn ... g_2363.jpg
Re: Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion
Reportedly they are developing the autoloader for an unmanned version of the Arjun tank. Don't know if IA has given such a requirement or DRDO is just taken it up to develop and showcase an unmanned armoured vehicle.MeshaVishwas wrote:Hope this is not another wild goose chase:
Autoloader for MBT Arjun
I hope the Army is not dreamy eyed about the LeClerc and now want a desi LeClerc at 40% off or whatever.
An unmanned Arjun in the current form makes no sense. If it to be unmanned with an autoloader, the size and weight can be reduced substantially.