Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 11 Mar 2019 01:52

Thx Mort Walker. Seems to be a summary from above video which also had an interesting bit about the sighting system for direct fire mode.

mody · Post by **mody** » 11 Mar 2019 15:27

Mort Walker wrote:I posted this in the Balakot thread and it really needs to be here:

1. An order for 114 Dhanush have been placed, but according to the Government Gun Carriage Factory (GCF), the IA needs over 400.

The GCF should be cranking these out like cookies. Make 4000 of them and sell them around the world. Make in India and combat tested in the toughest places on earth!

The original plan was and hopefully still is, for 414 guns. The first batch of 114 guns have been oredered. I suspect the balance 300 guns will be the uprated 155mm/52 cal guns. the prototype of the same is ready. Don't know the exact current status.
To speed up the production, perhaps the Jabalpur Vehicles Factory should also be taken over by GCF and re-tooled for producing parts of assemblies of arty guns. The Stallion trucks or whatever else the vehicles factory is producing, can and should be produced by the private sector.

There have been some reports that limited imports are also being considered as emergency purchase of 300-400 guns. Mostly from France or Israel.
Don't know how this can even be considered at this point in time. We have well and truly turned the corner for heavy arty guns and there should be no more imports of any guns. The K9 thunder, should be the last partially imported gun apart from the BAe-M777 guns.
If numbers are required urgently, why not place the order with Kalyani for the Bharat-52 guns. The guns are ready. The trials can be started immediately, if required. Some of the electronics developed for the ATAGS programs, can be ported to the Bharat-52 gun as well. Place an order for say 240-250 guns, enough for 20 regiments. Kalyani can probably deliver around 60 guns a year and finish the order in 4 years. Baba Kalyani is on record saying that they can produce upto 100 guns a year if orders are placed accordingly.

This along with Sharang and Dhanush, should be enough to make up the numbers, till we start inducting around 120 ATAGS guns per year.
The Sharang project can be good for exports as well. Countries like Vietnam and the Central Asian countries have a fair number of M46 130 mm guns. We can upgrade them to 155mm/45 cal guns and also export the ammo for the same.

negi · Post by **negi** » 11 Mar 2019 17:18

War is the best time to field untested home grown stuff , no one will question as to why the process was not followed and lastly the men will make it work . All great weapons were developed and deployed during war time without extensive testing ; only weapons that were fielded post extensive testing are the imported ones .

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 17:20

imo we should not get into a fetish about the 52cal. for one thing the 39cal is easier to manage on mountain roads and less weight for FAT trucks to tow on inclines. less diesel used. less tankers to ship diesel. if 39 cal is ready and 52cal will take another 3 years, produce 39 cal only and let 52cal come later....WE NEED NUMBERS YESTERDAY. need the teeth now, than a relaxed induction pace waiting for platinum coated kit.

a 70:30 split between 39/45:52 should be fine for us.

numbers are more important.

the dhanush 39cal will readily outrange the boneyard mode M109A5 the PA has got in the 100s. thing is they have 100s and we are yet to scale up 39cal dhanush production. thats the reality

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 11 Mar 2019 17:32

ANIVerified account@ANI
5m5 minutes ago
More
India today successfully carried out two tests of Pinaka guided extended range rockets off the coast of Balasore in Odisha. Both the rockets hit their targets at 90-km range.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Mar 2019 17:53

Thats as much range as smerch

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 11 Mar 2019 18:00

Ye saab to thik hai. But when will the serial production expected to take place.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Mar 2019 18:51

Probably from 2022 when the current 10 regiment production run of Pinaka comes to an end.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 11 Mar 2019 19:16

Singha wrote:imo we should not get into a fetish about the 52cal. for one thing the 39cal is easier to manage on mountain roads and less weight for FAT trucks to tow on inclines. less diesel used. less tankers to ship diesel. if 39 cal is ready and 52cal will take another 3 years, produce 39 cal only and let 52cal come later....WE NEED NUMBERS YESTERDAY. need the teeth now, than a relaxed induction pace waiting for platinum coated kit.

a 70:30 split between 39/45:52 should be fine for us.

numbers are more important.

the dhanush 39cal will readily outrange the boneyard mode M109A5 the PA has got in the 100s. thing is they have 100s and we are yet to scale up 39cal dhanush production. thats the reality

Dhanush doesn't have a 39cal its 45cal. The 52cal gun is already ready and proof tested and its also part of the MGS from OFB+BEML

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Mar 2019 19:18

Plus 150 ATAGS from Kayani and Tata designs are being procured by 2022, ATAGS will be the 52 cal with its huge chamber while OFB can churn out Dhanush in numbers

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 12 Mar 2019 05:58

Pinaka guided rockets successfully test fired; All you need to know about this deadly weapon system.

The DRDO made Pinaka guided rocket system was on Monday successfully test fired in Rajasthan's Pokhran. Two tests of Pinaka guided extended range rockets were carried out at Pokhran Range, reported news agency ANI. The earlier Pinaka system, which was an unguided one, has now been upgraded into a guided version, with a navigation, guidance and control kit developed by the Research Centre, Imarat (RCI), Hyderabad.

Last year in June, the Pinaka rocket, capable of decimating 900 square meters of an area from a 20-80 kilometers, was successfully test fired with enhanced range and guidance system from Chandipur in Odisha.

The weapon system is now equipped with state-of-the-art guidance kit comprising of an advanced navigation and control system.

"The indigenously developed guided Pinaka, developed by DRDO, will significantly boost the capability of the artillery to make precision hits," the defence ministry said after today's test, as per a PTI report.

About the tests, it said the weapon systems impacted the intended targets with high precision and achieved desired accuracies. "Telemetry systems tracked and monitored the vehicle all through the flight path. All the mission objectives have been met," the ministry said.

The Pinaka rocket will gradually replace the Russian SMERCH, which can flatten an area of 1.1 sq km. The Indian Army intends to have 22 Pinaka regiments by 2026 including 12 regiments of guided Pinaka missiles. Each regiment would consist of three batteries of six Pinaka launchers mounted on Tatra trucks.

The Indian Army has 62 SMERCH batteries, which provide lethal support to infantry and tanks in launching attacks, Sputnik News had reported earlier.

Pinaka rocket's development and features:
The first Pinaka regiment was raised on February 2000. Each regiment consists of three batteries of six Pinakas each, plus reserves. On 29 March 2006, the Indian Army awarded Tata Power SED and Larsen & Toubro's Heavy Engineering Division a contract worth Rs 200 crore, to produce 40 Pinaka MBRLs each. Tata Power SED declared that it would be delivering the first units within six months.

The Pinaka rocket is used as an area destruction weapon that can virtually decimate 900 square meters of an area from a 20-80 kilometer range by firing a salvo of 12 rockets in 44 seconds. The guided rocket is powered by the solid-propellant motor and can be fitted with three warheads: a pre-fragmented high-explosive (PFHE), an incendiary, or a reduced HE (RHE) practice warhead. Flight stabilization is provided by six clipped-deltas, side-folding fins at the rear of the rocket. Pinaka is a complete MBRL system, each Pinaka battery consists of: six launcher vehicles, each with 12 rockets; six loader-replenishment vehicles; three replenishment vehicles; two Command Post vehicle (one stand by) with a Fire Control computer, and the DIGICORA MET radar.

A battery of six launchers can neutralise an area of 1,000 m × 800 m. The Army generally deploys a battery that has a total of 72 rockets. All the 72 rockets can be fired in 44 seconds, taking out an area of 1 km2. Each launcher can fire in a different direction too. The system has the flexibility to fire all the rockets in one go or only a few.[10] This is made possible with a fire control computer. There is a command post linking together all the six launchers in a battery. Each launcher has an individual computer, which enables it to function autonomously in case it gets separated from the other five vehicles in a war.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Mar 2019 06:04

JTull Good catch. Yes direct fire mode with optical sight and night vision sight.
I think this is good for bunkers.

I would like them to be rushed to LOC with the Electronic fuzes already proofed.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Mar 2019 06:06

What's the weight of Pinaka warheads?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2019 08:25

250kg

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 12 Mar 2019 09:18

Singha wrote:250kg

?!? 250KG is huge. That's a quarter ton. Is that the entire rocket? I think the warhead should be 2.5Kg.

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 12 Mar 2019 09:29

Mort Walker wrote:
Singha wrote:250kg

?!? 250KG is huge. That's a quarter ton. Is that the entire rocket? I think the warhead should be 2.5Kg.

Warhead is 100kg. Total rocket 276kg.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/dp ... Oct_08.pdf

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 12 Mar 2019 09:37

Thanks sivab.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 12 Mar 2019 17:25

Although Pinaka achieved range of smerch, it's still 214 mm. The smerch is 300 and the rocket weighs 800 kg, therefore having a bigger effect. We need to come up with our own 300 mm. Read sometime back, the smerch can flatten 67 hectares. That's a huge area.

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/smerch/

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 12 Mar 2019 17:36

Smerch were acquired in 2002, it is better to get a BM 21 type solution where Indian truck/ platform, updated FCS and upgraded Indian rockets should be explored while we ramp up Pinaka numbers.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2019 17:42

Karthik S wrote:Although Pinaka achieved range of smerch, it's still 214 mm. The smerch is 300 and the rocket weighs 800 kg, therefore having a bigger effect. We need to come up with our own 300 mm. Read sometime back, the smerch can flatten 67 hectares. That's a huge area.

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/smerch/

long time back i read smerch was deferred from use as 'escalatory'

now in new dispensation its time to test it on PA terror camps

like Amrish Puri famously said in the epic Loha, "nayi wali banduk nikal ke lao" to shoot the fleeing villager at long range

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 12 Mar 2019 17:50

Karthik S wrote:Although Pinaka achieved range of smerch, it's still 214 mm. The smerch is 300 and the rocket weighs 800 kg, therefore having a bigger effect. We need to come up with our own 300 mm. Read sometime back, the smerch can flatten 67 hectares. That's a huge area.

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/smerch/

There was a long term plan to make a Pinaka variant which shall be analogous to SMERCH. The project was earlier referred to as Pinaka - II, but now that name has been accorded to the current extended range variant.

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Mar 2019 17:58

Given the cost of Smerch, a 90KM cheaper Pinaka which can be cheaply produced in number and allows us to hit the target in volume is much better.

I don't know what will be a MBRL target at 120 KM, that cannot be targeted using a 1 tonne warhead missile at those range. Need to keep things cheap.

War needs to be economically.

Khan has specific requirement of cheaper CAS at 150KM for it's bush war. We don't.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 12 Mar 2019 18:08

nam wrote: I don't know what will be a MBRL target at 120 KM, that cannot be targeted using a 1 tonne warhead missile at those range. Need to keep things cheap.

Flatten an entire mountain in one salvo. MBRL are a cheaper option per bang than a guided missile. Also the components are much cheaper and suited for mass production.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Mar 2019 18:08

and smerch has no guided rounds in our possession. dispersion will be much higher at max range and nullify the effect of more warhead.
even at 90km one does need guided rounds to make an impact.

the ability to precisely target a jihadi mansion @ 90km with 2m cep seems like a more "effects based warfare" than flattening the whole adjoining village also with it and killing 300 villagers along with the 5 jihadi high rankers. CBU type sensor fused bomblets would also be a useful add-on for striking at mobile and static area targets.

nam · Post by **nam** » 12 Mar 2019 18:15

Thakur_B wrote:
nam wrote: I don't know what will be a MBRL target at 120 KM, that cannot be targeted using a 1 tonne warhead missile at those range. Need to keep things cheap.
Flatten an entire mountain in one salvo. MBRL are a cheaper option per bang than a guided missile. Also the components are much cheaper and suited for mass production.

MBRL cannot flatten any mountains with 100kg warheads. A single BM missile will be cheaper than 10 guided rocket.

A guided rocket is nothing but a smaller BM! No major difference. Which is why Pak calls their MBRL, "Nasr missile".

srin · Post by **srin** » 12 Mar 2019 18:16

Btw, does OFB make Smerch rockets in India ? There are a bunch of articles that it *would* in around 2012, but I didn't see that corroborated.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 12 Mar 2019 20:21

Singha wrote:and smerch has no guided rounds in our possession. dispersion will be much higher at max range and nullify the effect of more warhead.
even at 90km one does need guided rounds to make an impact.

the ability to precisely target a jihadi mansion @ 90km with 2m cep seems like a more "effects based warfare" than flattening the whole adjoining village also with it and killing 300 villagers along with the 5 jihadi high rankers. CBU type sensor fused bomblets would also be a useful add-on for striking at mobile and static area targets.

Well smerch follows USSR policy, they never had accurate systems compared to US. So they built larger systems with more devastating effect. Their philosophy, if you don't have accuracy, have bigger radius of impact. They never bothered about collateral damages

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 12 Mar 2019 20:29

srin wrote:Btw, does OFB make Smerch rockets in India ? There are a bunch of articles that it *would* in around 2012, but I didn't see that corroborated.

I think the Russians refused to allow the local manufacture of the SMERCH. Probably a cash cow for them.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 12 Mar 2019 20:57

Bart S wrote:
srin wrote:Btw, does OFB make Smerch rockets in India ? There are a bunch of articles that it *would* in around 2012, but I didn't see that corroborated.
I think the Russians refused to allow the local manufacture of the SMERCH. Probably a cash cow for them.

Now the permission will be granted. Quite possibly a JV proposal is also being worked out.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 12 Mar 2019 21:04

nam wrote: MBRL cannot flatten any mountains with 100kg warheads. A single BM missile will be cheaper than 10 guided rocket.

A guided rocket is nothing but a smaller BM! No major difference. Which is why Pak calls their MBRL, "Nasr missile".

Adding the "G" to the MLRS makes it very suitable for other solutions though with that accuracy. As a long range solution for support fires a highly accurate GMLRS can be deployed within 200 meters of friendly troops so it effectively becomes a CAS weapon as well.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 12 Mar 2019 23:39

Epic video on the Searcher Mk2 UAV.

mody · Post by **mody** » 13 Mar 2019 14:58

The use of T55 and Vijayanta turrets on the LOC for firing at paki posts in direct fire mode, upto a range of 2-4 Kms is really good. We have hundreds of these old tanks lying around and the 105 mm HEAT round, in direct fire mode, will pack a good punch. The only problem is that these are stationery and cannot be moved around. However as they would co-located with Indian bunkers, it just provides extra fire power on the cheap for these positions. We can bring a lot more guns to the fight this way, then the pakis can counter.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Mar 2019 15:03

Well I was wondering how good are BMP canon's, whether they could be mounted on Jeeps and moved within bunkers along the LOC.

John · Post by **John** » 13 Mar 2019 17:29

Aditya_V wrote:Well I was wondering how good are BMP canon's, whether they could be mounted on Jeeps and moved within bunkers along the LOC.

They can be used for bunker busting but their short effective range and lack of mobility during engagement makes them quite vulnerable to atgm or rpg.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 13 Mar 2019 18:19

Pinaka Extended Range Rockets: India Successfully Carried Out 3rd Trial of Guided Missile System in Pokhran.

A day after carrying out the successful trials of two extended range rockets using the Pinaka guided missile system, India on Tuesday complete the third successful round of trials. The tests were conducted in Rajasthan's Pokhran today by the Defence Research and Defence Organisation (DRDO).

On Monday, the two rockets test-fired by the DRDO signalled a major boost in the country's artillery. Both the rockets precisely struck at the intended target located at a distance of 90-km. In comparison, the DRDO had achieved a 70-km precision in the last trials of Pinaka missile in May, 2018.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Mar 2019 18:39

mody wrote:The use of T55 and Vijayanta turrets on the LOC for firing at paki posts in direct fire mode, upto a range of 2-4 Kms is really good. We have hundreds of these old tanks lying around and the 105 mm HEAT round, in direct fire mode, will pack a good punch. The only problem is that these are stationery and cannot be moved around. However as they would co-located with Indian bunkers, it just provides extra fire power on the cheap for these positions. We can bring a lot more guns to the fight this way, then the pakis can counter.

I am not sure if these are just turrets. They are likely tanks driven to a position and sandbagged/ entrenched to protect them further, functioning as mobile pill boxes.

When sandbagged or driven into a position, they have limited hull movement. But engines usually will be kept ticking once in a while, so tank can be pulled out or relocated.

One former commander along the LoC explains how he drove a Vijayanta into a specially-made driving position for use against Pakistani bunkers before the 2003 ceasefire. "The Vijayanta wasn't a good offensive tank and had mechanical troubles, but was excellent in the defensive role and made for a great pillbox. Its 105 mm main gun could literally shred enemy bunkers."

Armored corps veterans says the tanks given to the infantry units were largely static and had limited hull movement but full turret movement. The guns are manned by armored corps gunners. The .50 calibre coaxial guns were also used in cross-border firing.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/t ... 2017-05-09

John · Post by **John** » 13 Mar 2019 19:48

Bart S wrote:
srin wrote:Btw, does OFB make Smerch rockets in India ? There are a bunch of articles that it *would* in around 2012, but I didn't see that corroborated.
I think the Russians refused to allow the local manufacture of the SMERCH. Probably a cash cow for them.

On topic of Smerch MLRS even russians are moving away from it in favor of Tornado (uses same rockets) primarily because former is too expensive to maintain and operate (same applies to Chinese clone Pakistan is running around with). Don't be surprised if they suddenly offer Tornado for export to compete with Pinaka (which like Tornado is much lighter than Smerch 27 tons vs 40+ tons and cheaper to maintain)

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 13 Mar 2019 20:09

John wrote:
Bart S wrote:I think the Russians refused to allow the local manufacture of the SMERCH. Probably a cash cow for them.
On topic of Smerch MLRS even russians are moving away from it in favor of Tornado (uses same rockets) primarily because former is too expensive to maintain and operate (same applies to Chinese clone Pakistan is running around with). Don't be surprised if they suddenly offer Tornado for export to compete with Pinaka (which like Tornado is much lighter than Smerch 27 tons vs 40+ tons and cheaper to maintain)

Tornado is nothing but a lighter Smerch with just half the no of rockets. Smerch carries 12 rockets and Tornado 6

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 13 Mar 2019 21:53

Singha wrote:imo we should not get into a fetish about the 52cal. for one thing the 39cal is easier to manage on mountain roads and less weight for FAT trucks to tow on inclines. less diesel used. less tankers to ship diesel. if 39 cal is ready and 52cal will take another 3 years, produce 39 cal only and let 52cal come later....WE NEED NUMBERS YESTERDAY. need the teeth now, than a relaxed induction pace waiting for platinum coated kit.

a 70:30 split between 39/45:52 should be fine for us.

numbers are more important.

the dhanush 39cal will readily outrange the boneyard mode M109A5 the PA has got in the 100s. thing is they have 100s and we are yet to scale up 39cal dhanush production. thats the reality

For extended ranges, sub-caliber projectiles, 105mm shell with a sabot should be tried. On almost all but the most hardened targets, 105mm has the same effect as 155mm.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 13 Mar 2019 22:35

nam wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
Flatten an entire mountain in one salvo. MBRL are a cheaper option per bang than a guided missile. Also the components are much cheaper and suited for mass production.
MBRL cannot flatten any mountains with 100kg warheads. A single BM missile will be cheaper than 10 guided rocket.

A guided rocket is nothing but a smaller BM! No major difference. Which is why Pak calls their MBRL, "Nasr missile".

I doubt that, wouldn't 72 rockets each with 100Kg of TNT (7.2 Tons total) would be much better saturation coverage over a large area than 10 Prithvi ballistic missile of 1 ton payload each (70% explosives fraction)? That many large BM use would also be a hugely escalatory and expensive step than firing a battery of MLRS.

Anyhow I think neither the MLRS nor the BMs would be very effective against a mountain top. Best way is to do what India finally figured out and did during Kargil war - PGM attack for pin point accuracy and saturation attack from multiple sides using scores of howitzers for hours at a time.