Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 07 Apr 2019 17:43

Dhanush Gun System


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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby jamwal » 07 Apr 2019 22:05

What 20% of this gun is imported ?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 07 Apr 2019 23:11

^ some stuff is imported. The Hindu says:

- powerpack ( Bofors used Mercedes engine for self propelled shoot n scoot capability. Rumoured discussions with Force motors, for one of their Mercedes derivative engines.)

- Electronics suite ( maybe sensors, imagers type of stuff. As lead agency is BEL, may have localisation plans).

- Seals and Bearings ( the recent Chinese bearing failure part of this too. Seals for hydraulic systems, critical stuff. I heard casually while drinking tea that some parts long localisation time and cost, for few numbers not feasible).

The critical element here may be bearings and seals. Gun will still work without electronics, like in original Bofors.

Without powerpack, can still be towed by FAT and fired.

No seal, hydraulics like recoil dampers and other systems may not work, if fired likely damage to gun.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby negi » 07 Apr 2019 23:49

100% indigenisation will only come when entire array from tanks, BMPs, bridge layers, Arty , Missile TELs all will be indigenous one could then start standardising on common platforms where feasible and that will get us volumes needed to build every nut and bolt here . However this will need iron hand at the top and someone who can wield the stick and get everyone aligned on the objective and deliver. This will only happen when deadlines will be set and once something is delivered it will have to be pushed down the throat of services just like you sort out a stubborn 4 yr old kid , with time and enough inventory being churned out in house snags or teething problems can be resolved , however with current mahaul where the plan B to import is always on table half the battle is lost , I have great respect for Russians in this regards ; among Germany , UK , USA they were always lagging behind in all spheres of arms development be it lack of precision tools , barely been touched by the industrial revolution they always built everything ground up all in-house , right from their rifles, small arms , airplanes and even tanks in WW-II everything was crude (T-34 came later) even to this day a Mig-29 has all rivets exposed in your face , their diesel engines that power their tanks came from companies that made tractors for agriculture . When they couldn't get their aircraft carrier plans going they settled for a heavy cruiser with long range supersonic AShMs , their jet engines had abysmally low MTBF initial AC had axial compressors (yes they stole some IP) , they stuck to liquid propulsion for all their missiles for several decades as that's the IP they got post WW-II and stuck with for a long time . Even when the brochure loving Indians get enamoured by the latest western gizmo with digital this and digital that the Russians are quietly fielding new ICBMs, new nuclear subs and fighter AC all this despite not having same control as back in the Soviet days or even money . Our people lack pride in our own work and that cuts across the entire social , economic and even administrative fabric and unless that changes we will never be self reliant in this area for a long long time , yes we will have some platforms being fielded every now and then in token numbers but we will always be buying the next best thing out there. So we will field Dhanush in some hundreds , great but the same year we are setting up an AKM factory to build assault rifles for the IA , great going all that work in INSAS etc is simply waste (don't tell me we learnt from it , everyone knows the theory a neighbourhood in Massa builds assault rifles it's actually worse if one knows the art and still has to buy).

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 08 Apr 2019 11:26

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1115125031162601473
The first Dhanush 155mm/45cal towed guns (indigenised Bofors FH-77) have just been handed over to the Army at Jabalpur.


Image
Image

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 08 Apr 2019 14:48

Dhanush use a Volvo engine for mobility. I think the original Bofors also would have used the same, being Swedish rather than a Mercedes engine.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 08 Apr 2019 14:51

mody wrote:Dhanush use a Volvo engine for mobility. I think the original Bofors also would have used the same, being Swedish rather than a Mercedes engine.

The export version FH-77B used a Mercedes Diesel engine. The Swedish one was petrol engine.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 15:34

I am not sure those pics are from India as there is not a single GOI authorized flowerpot in any of the pictures.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby hnair » 08 Apr 2019 15:43

Karan M wrote:I am not sure those pics are from India as there is not a single GOI authorized flowerpot in any of the pictures.


:rotfl: maybe they could not find the two bricks used as base for the regulation-issue flower pots?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 08 Apr 2019 16:03

Exactly. All this TFTA paving etc is too massa. First pic analysis also shows IA is planning mix of imported sound weaponry with TOT from Europe along with Dhanush. PA spokesperson is writing furious letter as we speak to Scotland about core issue and destabilizing South Asia.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 08 Apr 2019 17:19

Karan M wrote:I am not sure those pics are from India as there is not a single GOI authorized flowerpot in any of the pictures.


True that.

Also where is the nimboo-mirchi on the Guns hain?

Considering the amount of mirchi these babies are going to give the Pakis (and their current prices in jihadistan) they should have been there :-?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 08 Apr 2019 17:51

Karan M wrote:I am not sure those pics are from India as there is not a single GOI authorized flowerpot in any of the pictures.


Damn the eagle eyes of BRF. :rotfl:

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Picklu » 08 Apr 2019 21:40

I do miss the Avadi style flower treatment :(

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 09 Apr 2019 00:44

dinesh_kimar wrote:^ some stuff is imported. The Hindu says:

- powerpack ( Bofors used Mercedes engine for self propelled shoot n scoot capability. Rumoured discussions with Force motors, for one of their Mercedes derivative engines.)

- Electronics suite ( maybe sensors, imagers type of stuff. As lead agency is BEL, may have localisation plans).

- Seals and Bearings ( the recent Chinese bearing failure part of this too. Seals for hydraulic systems, critical stuff. I heard casually while drinking tea that some parts long localisation time and cost, for few numbers not feasible).

The critical element here may be bearings and seals. Gun will still work without electronics, like in original Bofors.

Without powerpack, can still be towed by FAT and fired.

No seal, hydraulics like recoil dampers and other systems may not work, if fired likely damage to gun.


Report mentions that by end of year the production will be indigenized to 90% extent. So what comprises of the next 10% that will be Made in India?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Apr 2019 00:47

Those bearings are being imported from Sweden from the OEM to Bofors. And the seals will be category III equipment.
You cant have supply chain with orders of 36 a year.

Anyway they will manage it. lets not open the kimono and get sanctioned.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 09 Apr 2019 04:08

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1115143195115941888 --->

The Indigenous content level in the Dhanush howitzer is slated to increase beyond the current 81% since;

1. Imported sub-systems of the electronic suite have been indigenized.

2. Trials of an indigenous power pack for the self-propulsion unit are also underway.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1115147019146813440 ---> Indigenous Content levels typically rise once you order something in serious numbers. This has been observed across the board.

See this tweet below, in response to SJha's tweet above...

https://twitter.com/practicalindia2/sta ... 2709562368 ---> Very True! My team has the capability & experience of 2 decades in rugged Electro-Optical payloads for defence & nuclear domains like Gun Camera, HUD Cameras, RR Cameras. Since orders are for very small quantities, we can not even recover our R&D costs.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 09 Apr 2019 04:08

Dhanush 15 mm Howitzers Inducted into the Indian Army




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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Barath » 09 Apr 2019 14:37

@ Karan M, @negi

If you had to standardize artillery for improved logistics/flexibility/training/cost efficiencies, what would you propose ?

Obviously under pressure of lack of artillery procurement movement, one had to abandon standardization...but now that procurement is moving one can perhaps dream ?

Obviously sunset the venerable Bofors 155/39. The Bharat 52 would also remains a loser, procurement standardization wise. Would you bump up numbers of Dhanush or Sharang or K9 or ATAGS ?

How about shell standardization ?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby VikramA » 09 Apr 2019 14:52

With induction of 114 Dhanush replacing older fh-77 and then induction of further 400 Dhanush replacing piece by piece the older 105 mm field guns in arty units combined with induction of OFB mounted gun system which inself is based on Dhanush 155/45 all arty guns systems across IA will be standardized.

Regarding shell standardization FH-77 155/39, Dhanush 155/45 and ATAGS 155/52 all will use the same 155 shell when the 105 mm field guns are replaced

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 09 Apr 2019 15:36

Barath wrote:How about shell standardization ?

What does shall standardisation mean?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 09 Apr 2019 15:38

VikramA wrote:Regarding shell standardization FH-77 155/39, Dhanush 155/45 and ATAGS 155/52 all will use the same 155 shell when the 105 mm field guns are replaced

You are very polite in how you have responded!!!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Apr 2019 15:50

we continue to worship the false god of the 400 bofors as if its another hoop we brown monkeys have to adhere to like CTBT, NPT.
maybe it was based on number of artillery regiments we had or desired in mid 80s when the deal was done.
today everyone wants to pack a 155mm in their undies and 400 is a false benchmark with 1:1 idea

K9 vajra is very costly and out of equation beyond what we purchased.

instead we should try to mate the (arjun chassis + t90 engine + a dhanush turret) to make a desi SP gun. its very doable.

1000 Dhanush
400 ATAGs
400 Bharat52 -> this is a must to encourage and reward private industry

retire any 105mm plains artillery units completely. maybe keep a few for the mountains but improve their barrels and ammo.

also we should give full freedom to ofb and private parties to make and export weapons without much govt controls.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Apr 2019 16:05

You need 105 mm Caliber weapon for other purpose where you cant use a 152 mm weapon ........Armies all over the world keep different caliber howitzer

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Apr 2019 16:12

Kalyani is ready with a ULH105mm design that should be able to replace all older 105mm and supplement the khan certified M777

why not reward our own, than keep the goras addicted to our money pipe.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 09 Apr 2019 16:16

As per current plans 300 M46 guns are to be upgraded via project Sharang. They will join 180 Soltam upgraded M46 guns. These will be 155 mm guns don't know whether 39 cal or 45 cal.
114 Dhanush 45 cal guns are on order. The total requirement is projected at 414 guns and I suspect the balance 300 guns will be Dhanush 52 guns. The prototype of Dhanush 52 has already been displayed by OFB. They even displayed a truck mounted version with this 52 cal gun.

There have been some reports that to make up the numbers quickly, we might look to import a few hundred guns from France or Israel. This should be avoided.
I have said this before, the K9 vajra should be the last partially imported gun that we deploy.

If numbers are required quickly, the Kalyani Bharat-52 gun should be considered. Say order about 240 guns, with a mandate to deliver all within say 32-36 months of placing the order. Kalyani is on record to say that if required they can delivery more then 120 guns per year.
3 years would allow us to make up the numbers with 240 Bharat-52 guns, 114 Dhanush guns and maybe 200 Sharang guns.
Plus 150 pilot batch of ATAGS. Hopefully by the 2022, the ATAGS should be ready for full scale production, along with the production of Dhanush-52 guns.

The projected requirement for truck mounted version is about 800-850 guns. The OFB version with the 52 cal dhanush and BEML truck (or was it Ashok Leyland?), should be tried and order for 240-300 guns should be placed.
Tata-SED had already developed a truck mounted version with Denel gun. Replace the Denel gun with ATAGS, modify the truck as required to absorb maybe slightly higher recoil of the ATAGS gun, plus an additional electronics developed as part of ATAGS program and order for the balance quantity required.

With the BMS charge system, I guess the shells for all 155mm guns can be common.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Apr 2019 16:20

Singha , The 105 mm from Khan was a limited buy for mountain ops , Hopefully we will see mass scale of Indian made 105 mm design.

My point was more towards you wont see any kind of 155 mm standardisation replacing even the 105 mm LH .

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 09 Apr 2019 16:20

Singha wrote:Kalyani is ready with a ULH105mm design that should be able to replace all older 105mm and supplement the khan certified M777

why not reward our own, than keep the goras addicted to our money pipe.


GD Kalyani has displayed not just the 105 mm light guns but also 155 mm, 39 cal light guns. These are reportedly slightly heavier then M777, but lighter then the Singapore Pegasus gun, which was competing with the M777 for the original contract. For the 105 mm, Kalyani has also dispayed a vehicle mounted version with electronic recoil. If additional light 155 mm guns are required, the Kalyani solution should be put through its paces in the high altitude summer and winter trials as soon as possible.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 09 Apr 2019 16:21

Austin wrote:Singha , The 105 mm from Khan was a limited buy for mountain ops , Hopefully we will see mass scale of Indian made 105 mm design.

My point was more towards you wont see any kind of 155 mm standardisation replacing even the 105 mm LH .


I think you mean 155mm M777 guns as limited buy for mountains?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 09 Apr 2019 17:42

More than SP, it the towed at LoC, which will bring in the peace.

Neither 5 Spice 2000 or Meteor BVR cannot hold candle to 500,000 annual round of messenger of peace of 155MM kind.

Pack the Loc with numbers and show the Pak what WW1 style artillery duel looked like.. specially when it goes on a decade.

2003 pleading for ceasefire was brought with 300 Bofors. A ten time increase will help convince PA quite faster.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 09 Apr 2019 18:29

More then anything else i think we should go allout on the Sharang upgrade program of OFB. We have 800 M46 guns and it cost Rs 1 crore to convert each gun to 152/45 caliber. Even if we were to upgrade 600 of them, for just Rs 600 crores we will have 600 of these potent 152 MM guns to remind the pakis of their amma and abbu.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srin » 09 Apr 2019 18:33

Is there a plan to upgrade the original Bofors from 39 cal to 45/52 cal ?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Apr 2019 18:35

I hope the 150 Dac cleared ATAGS come in by 2021, these plus guided Pinaka rounds, Dhanush, MGS, K10, M777, Bofors plus guidance kits should make life very difficult for the PA

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Apr 2019 18:38

Sharang may be cheap but unmechanized and not agile like the dhanush. A large crew has to manhandle it

But i agree they should be uprated and used

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby VikramA » 09 Apr 2019 18:48

more M46 may not be upgraded to 155mm for the same reason that requirement of Mounted gun system(MGS)(truck):850 approx is more than
the requirement of dhanush :528(114+414). IA seems to have made the decision that in future they require more mobility and MSG are much faster than towed arty for shoot and scoot as well as keeping up with integrated battle brigades of IA in plains of punjab. the only advantage a track mounted arty like K9 has over a truck MGS is in the deserts of rajasthan for which 100 k9 have been ordered. but K9 has weight of almost 60 ton but offer the same firepower as a truck MGS which weighs half as much because of which truck MGS is more mobile in mountains roads and more gentle on the fragile bailey bridges of leh ,sikkim , AP and HP

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Barath » 09 Apr 2019 21:39

VikramA wrote:With induction of 114 Dhanush replacing older fh-77 and then induction of further 400 Dhanush replacing piece by piece the older 105 mm field guns in arty units combined with induction of OFB mounted gun system which inself is based on Dhanush 155/45 all arty guns systems across IA will be standardized.

Regarding shell standardization FH-77 155/39, Dhanush 155/45 and ATAGS 155/52 all will use the same 155 shell when the 105 mm field guns are replaced


I understand the M777 barrel damage was due to faulty local ammunition per the preliminary findings; they were preparing firing tables for local ammo.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 815115.cms
Since I didn't track/notice the final findings, I have no idea if the recommendations or decision was to skip local ammo, for example.

Similarly, ATAGS receives at least some of its additional range via HE base bleed ammo. Again, my assumption was that due to things like breech pressure etc, that this would not automatically transfer over to other guns, which weren't designed for it. ATAGS, with a 25 litre chamber may be able to accommodate what other guns with typical 23 litre chamber might not be able to.

https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/i ... 29293.html

Similarly, for K9, "While the weapon platform has the ability to fire a standard M107 high-explosive (HE) projectile, no word is out about India specific changes, or if any have been made"

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 552681.cms

Plus DRDO is experimenting with guided shells aka rocket assisted projectiles; which I would assume might also have some limitations in which guns it might be fired from, over and above the 155mm diameter (After all, barrel length, propellant , breech pressure, range, accuracy and reliability can be traded off)

To put it another way, while obviously some 155 mm ammo may be fireable in all guns and there may be many permutations of that (eg HE, armor piercing, sabot...etc), are there any larger trends (indian vs nato ammo ) or exceptions (eg ATAGS HE base bleed shell) for potential interchangeability between the different guns. ?

The answer is not necessarily intuitive (at least to me).

(eg some ammo may still be useable elsewhere in a pinch, once the tables are created, but it may reduce barrel life or accuracy or range, another may be forbidden...)

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby VikramA » 09 Apr 2019 22:10

Barath wrote:I understand the M777 barrel damage was due to faulty local ammunition per the preliminary findings; they were preparing firing tables for local ammo.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 815115.cms
Since I didn't track/notice the final findings, I have no idea if the recommendations or decision was to skip local ammo, for example.

Similarly, ATAGS receives at least some of its additional range via HE base bleed ammo. Again, my assumption was that due to things like breech pressure etc, that this would not automatically transfer over to other guns, which weren't designed for it. ATAGS, with a 25 litre chamber may be able to accommodate what other guns with typical 23 litre chamber might not be able to.

https://www.indiatimes.com/news/india/i ... 29293.html

Similarly, for K9, "While the weapon platform has the ability to fire a standard M107 high-explosive (HE) projectile, no word is out about India specific changes, or if any have been made"

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 552681.cms

Plus DRDO is experimenting with guided shells aka rocket assisted projectiles; which I would assume might also have some limitations in which guns it might be fired from, over and above the 155mm diameter (After all, barrel length, propellant , breech pressure, range, accuracy and reliability can be traded off)

To put it another way, while obviously some 155 mm ammo may be fireable in all guns and there may be many permutations of that (eg HE, armor piercing, sabot...etc), are there any larger trends (indian vs nato ammo ) or exceptions (eg ATAGS HE base bleed shell) for potential interchangeability between the different guns. ?

The answer is not necessarily intuitive (at least to me).

(eg some ammo may still be useable elsewhere in a pinch, once the tables are created, but it may reduce barrel life or accuracy or range, another may be forbidden...)


according to OFB website 155-mm HE-ERFB BB is the longest range shell they produce for 38.5 km and the Maximum Chamber Pressure this shell can handle is 345 ± 8 Mpa
http://www.ofbindia.gov.in/products/dat ... add_41.htm

155-mm HE-ER (High-Explosive Extended-Range) base-bleed projectile: this is shell they say can be fired from all 39,45,52 cal guns,
i qoute"The 155-mm HE-ER (High-Explosive Extended-Range) base-bleed projectile is operated primarily for blast and fragmentation against infantry troops and soft materiel targets.

This projectile can be fired from 39, 45, 52 -calibre 155-mm artillery guns using all types of propelling charges. The increased range is achieved by using a low-drag aerodynamic shape coupled with base bleed technology.
The projectile contains 12 kilograms of TNT in a thin-walled, high-strength, high-fragmentation steel- alloy body."

http://www.ofbindia.gov.in/products/dat ... /lc/40.htm

155 mm SHELL HEER
http://www.ofbindia.gov.in/products/dat ... /lc/31.htm

this seems to be the standard shell produced and the Maximum Chamber Pressure is 440 Mpa which is well below the 155-mm HE-ERFB BB's 345 ± 8 Mpa. i presume that 155-mm HE-ERFB BB is the longest range than it should be used by 155/52 guns. and if this shells require only 345 ± 8 mpa ,far less than the standard shell's 440 mpa then perhaps 155-mm HE-ERFB BB could also be fired by 39 cal. but i am admit i am an novice is this matter so please correct me if i am wrong
Last edited by VikramA on 09 Apr 2019 22:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Chinmay » 09 Apr 2019 22:11

Elbit wins the towed gun competition for 1580 guns

While the requirement is for 1,580 towed guns, reports have suggested the possibility of the order being pruned to 400 imported guns. For the acquisition of the remaining 1,180 guns which were meant to be made in India under transfer of technology, the Government may opt instead for the indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in partnership with Tata Power SED and Bharat Forge.


Why wasnt this tender cancelled and given to the ATAGS entirely? Also the below quote sounds deeply suspicious. It is unlikely that an imported gun will be cheaper than the Dhanush or ATAGS.

But sources hinted that the Elbit-Bharat Forge combine has pulled its price below even that of the Dhanush 155 mm, 42 calibre artillery gun produced by the Ordnance Factory Board of which the first six were handed over to the Indian Army on April 8. Even though it enjoys a big leeway as an indigenous effort, the ATAGS will be hard pressed to match the price of Elbit's ATHOS 2052.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 09 Apr 2019 22:24

Singha wrote:Sharang may be cheap but unmechanized and not agile like the dhanush. A large crew has to manhandle it

But i agree they should be uprated and used


M46 has inherent limitation on elevation. I.e. it is meant for use in the plains and not mountains. I would imagine M777 is what we need for LoC thanks to low weight. Manpower is not a problem for IA

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby negi » 10 Apr 2019 00:07

Barath excellent points , I won't be surprised if our gold plated imports will have to be babied with their own ammo supply ; aise chootiyape ke liye hi hum jane jate hain (we are known for such things) .

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 10 Apr 2019 00:17

srin wrote:Is there a plan to upgrade the original Bofors from 39 cal to 45/52 cal ?

No. Those guns are nearing retirement. Much better to simply replace them with Dhanush.


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