Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Thakur_B
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Dec 2019 08:24

Back in 2012-13 there was news that OFB factory manufacturing Pinaka shall be upgraded to a capacity of up to 30,000 rockets annually with a stable production of 5000 tickets. I dont think that went any where.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 13 Dec 2019 12:17

SSridhar wrote:

We have been hearing about the next two regiments and the other six regiments for quite some time now. After the first two regiments in c. 2010, there has been a long gap of 9 years. Hopefully, the wait is because of upgrades and the new regiments would have Pinaka II & Guided Pinaka.

In September 2016, the CCS cleared the 3rd & 4th regiments of Pinaka at a cost of Rs. 3300 Crores. The Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC) had also cleared, on 7th November 2016, an additional six regiments valued at Rs. 14,633 Crores.

The cost difference between Regiments 3/4 and 5 thro' 10 show that the latter would be Pinaka II/Guided Pinaka.


I believe the issue was due to the quality issues with Pinaka production at OFB which was stuck. Only now, with Solar industries stepping in, is there a way out.

If you see IA exercises, only BM-21 are often shown firing. Inventory of Pinaka is carefully hoarded bar proof trials at PXE.

The RFP to pvt sector, Pinaka Mk1 and guided Pinaka assembly in pvt sector is the real breakthrough.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 13 Dec 2019 12:19

SSridhar wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Any news on new 90/120 KM project?

I believe that Pinaka II may have a range of 90 Kms though DRDO speaks only of 60+ Kms.


The document above mentions a range of 75kms with guided Pinaka and a CEP of <30 mtrs.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 13 Dec 2019 12:53

That's one very informative document with nice photos. This is a huge achievement. The guided Pinaka will make mincemeat of the Nasr.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karthik S » 13 Dec 2019 13:02

A single battery of 6 launchers can neutralize an area of 1000m * 800m. With 75km range, this system can used to target camps in PoK instead of 155 guns.

Gurus, as far as exchanges in LoC go, it's caliber to caliber, so do MBRLs come higher up the escalation ladder than 155 guns? Can these be used just as big guns, or usage of MBRLs require authorization from higher ups.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 13 Dec 2019 13:47

Would it be possible to target the paki Braigade HQ at Gultari with the 75 Km range Pinaka-II? Also, the paki base at Gyari? Maybe Gyari can be targeted from Siachen, though the Pinaka systems would have to be stationed at altitude in excess of 12K ft, to be able to fire the rockets above the Saltoro range. The range would definitely be less then 75 Kms, due to the angle of fire, but the rarefied atmosphere would help somewhat.
Gyari is crucial for the pakis to sustain their ops, west of the Saltoro ridge.

If the Brigate HQ at Gultari can be targeted, then a few batteries of Pinaka-II, would be able to flatten the place completely.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 13 Dec 2019 13:51

Karan M wrote:
SSridhar wrote:I believe that Pinaka II may have a range of 90 Kms though DRDO speaks only of 60+ Kms.


The document above mentions a range of 75kms with guided Pinaka and a CEP of <30 mtrs.

Guided Pinaka are carried in a larger quad-pack as shown in an image in that document.

Imagine if a single “fat” rocket is carried in one of those ... 150km+

MGM-140 ATACMS
Image

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 13 Dec 2019 14:02

That is Pralay territory with Prahaar for longer ranges. SRBM ranges.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Picklu » 13 Dec 2019 20:38

tsarkar wrote:That's one very informative document with nice photos. This is a huge achievement. The guided Pinaka will make mincemeat of the Nasr.


The last row of the table on page 24 shows the usual pattern :cry:

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 13 Dec 2019 21:18

Hoe about the 122 mm rocket? Did any body know about that one before. I am so happy to see that.

I wish we develop we develop even smaller rockets, one of which is modified to shoulder fired anti air missile.

A little sad though that the NEPE development is still ongoing. Have been reading that status for the past 5 years!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Picklu » 13 Dec 2019 21:28

The 122 mm are for Grad AFAIK

Makes sense for us to indigenize the consumable part. I believe the launchers were also modernized by L&T a few years back?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 13 Dec 2019 22:04

If I am right DRDO had displayed a 122mm extended range rocket for the grad as far back as ~2004 during B Harry time. But had issues with the Russians not accepting for the upgrade or something like that. Couldn't find it as Harry's website doesn't exist anymore

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Dec 2019 22:14

Kakarat wrote:If I am right DRDO had displayed a 122mm extended range rocket for the grad as far back as ~2004 during B Harry time. But had issues with the Russians not accepting for the upgrade or something like that. Couldn't find it as Harry's website doesn't exist anymore


BM-21 ER rocket (40 KM) was developed by DRDO.
ARDE has been involved in
development of following artillery
rockets. The rocket development is
primarily carried out in association
with HEMRL and PXE:
◊ Pinaka Mk-I (37.5 km)
◊ Pinaka Mk-II (60 km)
◊ Guided Pinaka (75 km)
◊ Pinaka Mk-I Enhanced (45 km)
◊ 122 mm Extended Range (40 km)

https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/f ... 19_Web.pdf

THere is an image in the document. THis has been in works for many many years, THe exact status has always been a bit iffy to ascertain. Here's an article from 2009 which says 122mm ER rockets are being inducted but we didn't see much of it in open sources.
http://www.india-seminar.com/2009/599/5 ... kanwal.htm

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 13 Dec 2019 23:20

Kakarat sahab, the recent technology focus document says the rocket is "under development". How could these have been ready for induction in 2004.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 13 Dec 2019 23:31

The ER 40KM rocket, looks like Grad replacement, however there is one project on vertically launched MBRL!

This is meant to be used in the mountains. It will allow for the rockets to hit vertically on reverse slope target. Suppose to have guided rocket.

For a moment, I thought this was the one.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 14 Dec 2019 01:34

Indranil wrote:Kakarat sahab, the recent technology focus document says the rocket is "under development". How could these have been ready for induction in 2004.

Sir,
I didn't say inducted I said displayed in a exhibition around 2004. I remember DRDO displaying a solid fueled rocket for 122mm grad but which edition of Defexpo I don't remember, details were in B Harry's website it was from his time.

nam wrote:The ER 40KM rocket, looks like Grad replacement, however there is one project on vertically launched MBRL!

This is meant to be used in the mountains. It will allow for the rockets to hit vertically on reverse slope target. Suppose to have guided rocket.

For a moment, I thought this was the one.


Its not grad replacement but use in the grad system

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 14 Dec 2019 02:57

How about a Pinaka rocket launcher pod for 122mm ER? Probably could fit 12 rockets to a pod.
Two pods = 24 x 122mm ER rockets

Same launcher vehicle with different pods for
  • 122mm -> ER 40km (12 to a pod)
  • 244mm -> standard w/ Mk.1/MK.1E 45km, Mk.2 55km (6)
  • 244mm -> Guided 75km (4 to a pod)
  • 300mm -> ER Guided 90km+ (3 or 4 to a pod)

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 14 Dec 2019 04:04

Cool thing is all the building blocks are in place. Enhancing should be much easier.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 14 Dec 2019 04:48

srai wrote:How about a Pinaka rocket launcher pod for 122mm ER? Probably could fit 12 rockets to a pod.
Two pods = 24 x 122mm ER rockets

Same launcher vehicle with different pods for
  • 122mm -> ER 40km (12 to a pod)
  • 244mm -> standard w/ Mk.1/MK.1E 45km, Mk.2 55km (6)
  • 244mm -> Guided 75km (4 to a pod)
  • 300mm -> ER Guided 90km+ (3 or 4 to a pod)

Another look at 122mm rocket compared to 244mm rockets (page 23), it is a lot smaller. 24 rockets to a pod seems feasible.
Two pods = 48 x 122mm ER rockets

Or stack of 2 x 12 pods in each pod space.
Four pods (2 pods stacked on each side) = (12 + 12) x 2 = 48 x 122mm ER rockets


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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 20 Dec 2019 16:34


abhik
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 22 Dec 2019 20:17


First time I'm seeing the frontend of the actual rocket pod (rather than the "tip-sticking-out" that they usually have in the parades/exhibitions). Also did they cut the number of rockets from 6 per "pod" to 4? - I'm speculating based on the cover that popped off just before firing in the video, looked like a 2x2 config (or could just be the agle too).

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 22 Dec 2019 20:55

abhik wrote:First time I'm seeing the frontend of the actual rocket pod (rather than the "tip-sticking-out" that they usually have in the parades/exhibitions). Also did they cut the number of rockets from 6 per "pod" to 4? - I'm speculating based on the cover that popped off just before firing in the video, looked like a 2x2 config (or could just be the agle too).


Did you read the extremely descriptive DRDO publication posted a few posts earlier than yours by Thakur_B and even earlier by Jayasimha?

https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/f ... 19_Web.pdf

I just realised most people are in a tearing hurry to post without bothering to read up. My I humbly request everyone to read the above newsletter twice or thrice since one might not absorb it the first time. I personally read anything 4-5 times to absorb and let it sink in.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Picklu » 23 Dec 2019 00:45

Any reason why the number of rockets got reduced from 6 to 4 in each pod?
My understanding is that the dimension didn't increase and the weight increase is also minimal (~15 kg), so why reduce the throw-weight?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 23 Dec 2019 01:57

Picklu wrote:Any reason why the number of rockets got reduced from 6 to 4 in each pod?
My understanding is that the dimension didn't increase and the weight increase is also minimal (~15 kg), so why reduce the throw-weight?


The dia at the fins for guidance increased so the the space between the rockets had to be increased reducing the nos

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Picklu » 23 Dec 2019 02:10

Kakarat wrote:
Picklu wrote:Any reason why the number of rockets got reduced from 6 to 4 in each pod?
My understanding is that the dimension didn't increase and the weight increase is also minimal (~15 kg), so why reduce the throw-weight?


The dia at the fins for guidance increased so the the space between the rockets had to be increased reducing the nos


No folding mechanism for those fins at the front?

There's elaborate documentation of the evolution of the shape and folding mechanism for the stabilizing fins at back. Don't think they need additional space.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby titash » 23 Dec 2019 05:48

tsarkar wrote:
abhik wrote:First time I'm seeing the frontend of the actual rocket pod (rather than the "tip-sticking-out" that they usually have in the parades/exhibitions). Also did they cut the number of rockets from 6 per "pod" to 4? - I'm speculating based on the cover that popped off just before firing in the video, looked like a 2x2 config (or could just be the agle too).


Did you read the extremely descriptive DRDO publication posted a few posts earlier than yours by Thakur_B and even earlier by Jayasimha?

https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/f ... 19_Web.pdf

I just realised most people are in a tearing hurry to post without bothering to read up. My I humbly request everyone to read the above newsletter twice or thrice since one might not absorb it the first time. I personally read anything 4-5 times to absorb and let it sink in.


Amazing find Sirjee. All the minute details on Why, How, and When.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 23 Dec 2019 06:49

They have mastered fuzes, warhead, navigation and control sub systems. To put that guidance unit on a artillery rocket tells how affordable it is.
Next step multi-function fuze.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 23 Dec 2019 08:07

To put things in perspective the Pinaka has a 100kg warhead with 75km range.
The biggest gun with Indian Army was the 7.2" howitzer issued 2 per corps that is for 3 divisions.
It fired a 92 kg shell to a 15.5 km range and was quite inaccurate!
Now IA has guided Pinaka that delivers <30 m CEP and in plenty of numbers. Not just two per corps!
This is heavy artillery to the max!!!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 Dec 2019 09:45

What's the CEP of Smerch? If I am not mistaken, Smerch is unguided. If so, the Pinaka-II that we have developed is better than Smerch in all aspects:

a) Range: 75Km, extended to 90Km
b) Guided, with a low CEP

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 23 Dec 2019 10:40

Smerch rocket is 800 kg with 230 kg warhead.
All are dispersion payloads.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 23 Dec 2019 14:14

ramana wrote:To put things in perspective the Pinaka has a 100kg warhead with 75km range.
The biggest gun with Indian Army was the 7.2" howitzer issued 2 per corps that is for 3 divisions.
It fired a 92 kg shell to a 15.5 km range and was quite inaccurate!
Now IA has guided Pinaka that delivers <30 m CEP and in plenty of numbers. Not just two per corps!
This is heavy artillery to the max!!!


Gamechanger that is. Now will the production of this system(including rockets) be given to Solar Industries/l&t type companies or OFB will eat the cake. This decision will decide the successful induction of this system in the army wrt mass production.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 24 Dec 2019 07:17

I hope they start "fully guided only Pinaka 2" for ranges between 100 to 200 KMS and start inducting in large quantities. All with CEP of less then 5 meters. Will make long term retaliation far more cheaper.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 24 Dec 2019 07:23


srai
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 24 Dec 2019 19:48

...

Now IA has guided Pinaka that delivers <30 m CEP and in plenty of numbers.

...

Last page in the Tech Focus states <60m CEP.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/f ... 19_Web.pdf

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 24 Dec 2019 20:17

srai wrote:
...

Now IA has guided Pinaka that delivers <30 m CEP and in plenty of numbers.

...

Last page in the Tech Focus states <60m CEP.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/f ... 19_Web.pdf


Its from earlier information IMHO. The detailed decription in the document mentions 30 mtrs CEP which matches what Janes was told in 2018.
https://www.janes.com/article/84450/roc ... nce-id18d3

And:

Take the example of Pinaka rocket system. This was made for the Indian armed forces. The Indian Army accepted four regiments in the beginning. Now six more regiments for about Rs 14,000 crore have recently been cleared. The first version of the rocket, Pinaka Mark-I which is in service with the army has the range of 40 km with the margin of error of 1.5 per cent. In the Mark II version, (also called Guided Pinaka), we have increased the range to 60 km; and reduced the CEP (circular error probable) in MkIII. The army has come up with the revised specifications and are interested in this Mark III. In this situation, we feel that we can find somebody else who is interested in Mark II. It is much better ammunition with better capability and we are retaining the cost between MkI and MkII. We have made certain modifications and our production rate is also faster. Furthermore, we are looking at adding correctors to reduce the error. We have done our experiments with two systems in January 2017 and Mark III system is ready for further trials and production.


Dr Christopher, Force

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 24 Dec 2019 20:36

so Mk2 version has been cancelled (maybe in favor of Mk3, which is still in dev)?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 25 Dec 2019 01:05

DRDO Tech Focus, in its details, specify that Guided Pinaka's CEP is 30m. If you look at the Pinaka hitting a target, the miss-distance seems something like 5-10m. Pretty darn accurate!

A 100Kg warhead, with a 60m lethality radius & a low CEP, makes it lethal. We have a precision-weapon at the cost & volumes of an area weapon.

DRDO techfocus also says that a salvo of 2-3 Guided Pinakas ensure a 99% kill probability :mrgreen:

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Raghunathgb » 25 Dec 2019 10:53

fanne wrote:so Mk2 version has been cancelled (maybe in favor of Mk3, which is still in dev)?


How many true multi barrel rocket launchers can launch rockets to range above 90 kms of pinaka mk2 ? probably BM-30 and T300(both have range around 90-100km). And both of them are 300 mm rockets compared to 214 mm pinaka rockets.

So I believe we posses one of the best multi barrel rocket launcher system in pinaka mk2(hoping it is operationalized soon).Asking for 120 km pinaka would be asking for worlds best (in terms of range) artillery system. I just hope army induct mk2 rather than waiting for world beater mk3 which might take time.

All said, 120 kms artillery would be almost good as nuclear missile on most of Pakistan cities like Lahore, Multan, Rawalpindi , islamabad and Karachi which are very near to Indian borders.pinaka in numbers would be a army in itself. A true game changer weapon.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 25 Dec 2019 13:50

Infuriating & sad at the same time! Read today's piece by one of the key movers behind Pinaka (Lt Gen Palepur Shankar). If the reduction in Pinaka regiments from 22 to 10 is true, this is shocking!

https://palepurshankar.blogspot.com/2019/12/pinaka-in-conventional-non-contact.html


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