Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Barath
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Barath » 27 Mar 2020 18:45

Yes, you & Ramana mentioned it. The additional info is nice, thanks.. That was not the question.

The question was whether in your opinion and Ramana's, whether there would be additional imports for ammo for precision guidance or for longer range. or for smart projectiles or other such capabilities.

If you think that the indian army will be happy with existing stock and increment of the shells and Indian r&d and no import will be considered, even for this scope

And I'm assuming the navy's desires are out of scope of this discussion.

Ie. I'm trying to figure the scope of the opinion/discussion. Excalibur was just an example.

--'
For separate discussion yes, your point about gun capability is noted (and you were likely simplifying on my account). Nevertheless, ammo also has a part to play, with longer range, achieved via drag reduction ,(longer, slimmer), base drag reduction (eg base bleed), or rocket or ramjet assistance , in addition to playing with charge, etc. And guidance and control with fins, laser guidance, shaped trajectory, degree of discrimination probably on someone's wish list, same round or not, same gun or not

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 27 Mar 2020 20:15

The Excalibur was acquired via a DCS so we do not know what the planned inventory is for the IA and whether all of that supply has been met or whether it is still ongoing. Beyond that, I don't think the IA wants to import any other systems. There is an indigenous PGK program that will likely provide additional capability in the future. Affordable accuracy is almost a precursor to long range artillery especially when you are looking at 50, 60 or 70 km shots. As far as long range artillery with things like Ramjet, those could be long term solutions but at the moment it is a university project not something that they have gone all in on. South Korea has a national program to develop a ramjet artillery round but it is more modest range targets (80 km which is about what non optimized hypervelocity rounds can get today so I don't understand why such a solution would be benificial at those ranges). NAMMO/Boeing have a round they are trying to pitch to the US Army against a 120'ish Km requirement. Again, not totally convinced that it is the best way forward given alternatives.

I haven't seen the modeling on how the guidance cost is impacted as you extend ranges beyond the 70-80 km range but that could be one bottlneck to extreme range artillery. You don't want to pay 2-3x the cost for accuracy at those ranges compared to what you pay on near precision (PGK) or precision rounds (like excalibur). Also the cost-benefit for an expeditionary force like the US is always different (often the logistical cost is more than the actual cost of the round so they can afford to pay more for fewer more accurate rounds that cut down on shots per target) so what the IA works out in terms of where it thinks is the sweet spot between range, accuracy and cost is going to be different.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby niran » 30 Mar 2020 19:29

Pratyush wrote:
Not exactly correct, as the the 23 liter chamber is still utilised in various 52 cal SPH such as the K-9, or the PZH2000. NATO JBMOU complaint.


SPG cannot utilise 25 liter chamber, to overcome the recoil will need proper arty carriage or Vehicle so heavy it will need 2 engines to travel.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 31 Mar 2020 09:23

niran wrote:
Pratyush wrote:
Not exactly correct, as the the 23 liter chamber is still utilised in various 52 cal SPH such as the K-9, or the PZH2000. NATO JBMOU complaint.


SPG cannot utilise 25 liter chamber, to overcome the recoil will need proper arty carriage or Vehicle so heavy it will need 2 engines to travel.



https://defense-update.com/20191127_long_range_artillery.html

The G6 listed in the report is an SPH with a gun having 25 liter chamber.

So it is possible to upgrade to 25 lt chamber with little effort.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 01 May 2020 22:02

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... y/1891392/

DRDO is undertaking a number of projects for the Indian Army – these include Development trials of Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) which are completed
Development trials of Pinaka guided rocket including salvo firing and demonstration of range with pin-point accuracy has been conducted.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ashishvikas » 16 May 2020 19:34

Huge boost for Indian defence industry coming. A negative list of items banned from imports; includes artillery guns, certain types of ammunition; corpoporatisation of 15 OFB units; FDI in defence raised from 49 to 74 per cent; relaistic GSQRs; IPMTs and time-bound procurements

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 19362?s=19

Vivek K
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 16 May 2020 20:04

That would be excellent! But nothing happens without orders and advances. GOI needs to get off its butt and place orders!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 25 May 2020 08:01

Pratyush, The term little effort will kill the SPG. Because Army won't be happy till it's 25 liters and DRDO will take forget and DGQA trials will be even. onger
So be happy and get armed with 23 liters available

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 25 May 2020 08:03

Bharat, Yes they want more Excalibur. It's very effective. Reduces logistics, gun wear, and destroys target. No near miss folly.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 25 May 2020 08:06

In the M777 what parts are titanium and what parts are steel?

Steel: Barrel, recoil, firing chamber and breech?

Manish_P
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 25 May 2020 10:05

^ Please check the below mentioned pdf document which is available for download on google

Search term - 'ITA – Titanium 2005 M777A1 Howitzer Cost Reduction Efforts'

(Not an engineer, so i don't know how accurate or complete or valid (it is from 2005) it would be..)

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jun 2020 22:19

https://twitter.com/Akash10j/status/126 ... 80803?s=20 ---> Talked to a L&T guy recently, according to him there's only one critical component that's being imported from South Korea. It makes sense because L&T being the vendor, would have to support the guns in the future with spares. This is also kind of confirmed here.

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 65666?s=20 ---> This is generally how these deals are structured. By the end of the X year delivery period close to 100% should be made from Indian raw materials in India. But what does this mean? L&T can build, while Samsung provides blueprints. What R&D capabilities have they accrued?

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 63686?s=20 ---> For the non-critical items I would not be surprised. And it depends how they define it - 80% is that by cost or volume? If it’s by volume then much of that will come just by sourcing high grade steel from Indian entities. It’s nothing really to be overly impressed by, now what?

Image

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby darshan » 02 Jun 2020 22:36

Acquiring production engineering expertise and getting people ready is only helpful if the actual plan involved giving contracts to local designs. That's when the people that have worked on the production of K9 can be of any value.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 02 Jun 2020 23:36

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 65666?s=20 ---> This is generally how these deals are structured. By the end of the X year delivery period close to 100% should be made from Indian raw materials in India. But what does this mean? L&T can build, while Samsung provides blueprints. What R&D capabilities have they accrued?


The design driver will be DRDO. The whole point is with K9 been built by L&T, DRDO doesn't need to create a SPH from scratch. DRDO will give the ATAGS gun spec and dimension, recoil pressure etc to L&T and ask them to modify a K9 for a test. If something cracks, L&T will forge a stronger part.

With no K9, DRDO has to give the spec and find partners to build the entire SPH. And guess who will be that partner? HVF Avadi.. :roll:

BF & Tata have not sold ONE piece of towed artillery to IA or to anyone. How did they manage to build ATAGS?

It is not like an aircraft where you need to know all the design drivers. Land systems are the easier ones to localize.. if there is really a will to do it.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 12 Jun 2020 22:17

Apparently the first regiment of Dhanush (18 guns) is on the verge or has already been inducted.

Original schedule for induction:
- 18x 2019
- 36x 2020
- 60x 2021

Total 114 guns. Post Covid changes are expected.

Few M777 pieces have been inducted, maybe a couple of batteries, 3 confirmed in 2019.

Our backbone for artillery continues to be the 105 mm, 130 mm and Bofors. The drastic spares and ammunition shortage of Kargil war is no longer there, 155 mm shells have even been exported to UAE.

Our artillery situation is definitely better than during the last war.

Helicopter situation, counter battery radars, rocket artillery numbers have also improved.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 12 Jun 2020 22:29

dinesh_kimar wrote:
Our backbone for artillery continues to be the 105 mm, 130 mm and Bofors. The drastic spares and ammunition shortage of Kargil war is no longer there, 155 mm shells have even been exported to UAE.



The ones useful in the mountains are 105 & Bofors. The Russia field gun, cannot do high angle fire (unless they keep something below the gun to angle it).

If we had sense to start developing the Dhanush couple of years before, we would have had that gun properly inducted. Everyone seems to have forgotten the number of times, artillery trials were started again, before of one scandal or the other.

No matter how much we want to spin it, 155MM is the argument winner. Range and firepower. All the dilly dailying, scandal is now hitting us a crucial time.

We are facing an army with 152MM & 155MM guns. Not with 105 & 120.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 12 Jun 2020 22:42

^ Chinese artillery backbone seems to be a 122 mm gun, apparently 70 % of their inventory, with remaining 152 mm D-30 variants.

But they have mass, 100s of pieces, like the Soviet armies of old.

It makes sense as their main use would be India, Vietnam and Taiwan.

Few, if any 155 mm pieces, mostly exported.

However, their 122 mm has been modified from 22 km to 27 km to 34 km.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 12 Jun 2020 22:48

They had Sh15 & Sh1 in the 155MM truck mounted category. Along with the M777 equivalent.

122MM is the truck mounted version.

Towed is the D30 152MM.

It is all about mass in artillery. I don't even want to talk about our Pinaka mess against what the PLA can field in MBRL.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 13 Jun 2020 04:30

We have no match to what the chinese have in the Truck Mounted Gun category.The chinese have the PCL 181 which will be a force multiplier in the mountainous regions.

India could have had a comparable gun and OFB/BEML has exhibited its gun mounted system in 2018 and 2020 but nothing after that.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 13 Jun 2020 06:05

Common guys dont do dhoti shivering in a technical thread.

Barath, Can confirm quite a few shells have been acquired. All good.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jun 2020 18:42

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 56995?s=20 ----> BEL electronic fuzes for artillery shells showcased in DefExpo 2020:

Image

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 Jul 2020 05:04

Are they for 155mm or for 105mm shells also?
and whats their production rate?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 08 Jul 2020 23:36

I recently read that our 105 mm Indian Field Gun has been out of production for some time now. Small numbers of Light gun LFG continue to be produced, for "Field regiments". This gun is air portable, but not mule capable.

Army is reportedly keen to standardise on 155 mm pieces in lieu of 105/122/130 mm.

The 81 mm mortar for infantry continues to be produced, as does the 120 mm for "Light Regiment' and Dhanush is now produced for "Medium regiments".

120 mm mortar at 425 kg weight is not only mule portable, but EME had converted a no. of Bullet bikes into 3 wheeled mortar carriers (Doklam crisis).

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 08 Jul 2020 23:42

So 105 mm numbers , if slowly winding down, might not see much development towards new types of shells ( there was some talk of a 21 km ER shell similar to the Brits, but not happened).

New Fuses also may not be developed for these shells.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Jul 2020 00:23

How they plan to lug the 155mm on mountain roads?

Again planner is distant from field.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 09 Jul 2020 00:45

ramana wrote:Are they for 155mm or for 105mm shells also?
and whats their production rate?


105mm, 130mm, 155mm. ECIL and BEL made them so far, delivering on an order of over 3L fuzes placed on them. ECIL mostly assembles them based on SA TOT, limited indigenization. BEL has TOT from Israel, but much more indigenization. Ultimate aim for BEL is to get to 50k fuzes per month but they haven't achieved that yet. As of 2019, they had ramped up to around 9K fuzes per month after having started the plant in 2017. In 2018, IA put out another requirement for 5L fuzes but open to all private and public sector, BEL and ECIL could bid, but so could others.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 09 Jul 2020 00:48

Some 145 M-777 heli portable howitzers are under induction, Saar. Weight 4.2 tons, uber gold tipped solution .

Maybe towed Sharang can substitute them, but cannot be hauled up mountains easily (8.5 ton) , and can't dismantle these heavier guns in the field.

IFG is light weight at 3.5 tons, and LFG more so at 2.3 tons, is mountain road capable, despite some shortcomings in the firepower.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 09 Jul 2020 01:20

Army ordered 150 LFG 105mm few years back & just recently the order has completed. Its a good Howitzer for mountains. OFB definitely ****** up enhancing production of Pinaka rockets, and its not clear if they hit 5000 per annum from 1000. Setting up the enhanced production factory is running 10 years late.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 09 Jul 2020 01:23

Kalyani Bharat Forge has

155mm/39 light steel 6.5 tons, Titanium 5 tons & ultra light titanium 4 tons. These are available at a fraction of cost of M777

105mm at 900kg

Apart from 155mm/52 caliber towed & mounted.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 09 Jul 2020 01:31

The rocket are now made by Solar industries no? Or do they only make the motor?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Jul 2020 01:48

dinesh_kimar wrote:Some 145 M-777 heli portable howitzers are under induction, Saar. Weight 4.2 tons, uber gold tipped solution .

Maybe towed Sharang can substitute them, but cannot be hauled up mountains easily (8.5 ton) , and can't dismantle these heavier guns in the field.

IFG is light weight at 3.5 tons, and LFG more so at 2.3 tons, is mountain road capable, despite some shortcomings in the firepower.



I read a DTIC report on M-777. Its weight was designed to be airlifted in an Osprey.
Its just under the design limit of 10,000 lbs.
Thanks to this low weight it shakes after firing and has to be reset.

May be it has been fixed with computer or some fancy solution.

So when looking at gold plated solutions need to total picture and not just fan boy panting as the hype was made prior to the acquisitions.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Jul 2020 02:03

There was some news about a new BEL facility near to Nashik to be close to the explosive filling plant to avoid road testing. Part of the new industrial estate.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 09 Jul 2020 14:29

LFG is more mobile. As its designed to be dismantled & transported. The heaviest piece is 1 ton. LFG & 120mm mortar can do most of work in the mountains.

M777 is difficult to dismantle & reassemble in Battlefield conditions (but it can be done).

Bharat Forge claims, that it can supply one Howitzer a day if bulk order is placed. Its light steel Howitzer 6.5 tons does deserve bulk orders. Its only costs 1/8th of M777. We can order 1000-2000 & easily pre-position batteries all across the borders.

M777+Chinook Combination is too costly.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 09 Jul 2020 21:33

I hope we induct Mounted Gun System (MGS) in big numbers. It has advantages due to obvious reasons:
Lighter in weight and much more mobile in Mountainous terrains.
Towed Guns are sitting ducks in counter enemy fire. Even the self propelled versions have very limited mobility and are vulnerable.

We have option for MGS between:
DRDO/OFB which has a 155MM 52 caliber gun on 6 X 6 Tatra v/s Bharat Forge 155MM gun on a 4 X 4 Ashok Leyland Truck.
Bharat forge also has a 105MM gun with soft recoil version weighing 950 Kgs on a pick up van sized vehicle!!!!

Before yellow material hits the fan i hope the babus are given jhapads to induct them soon.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Jul 2020 22:01

Gyan, What barrel length for Bharat Forge light howitzer? 39 calibers?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 09 Jul 2020 23:00

ramana wrote:Gyan, What barrel length for Bharat Forge light howitzer? 39 calibers?

Yes their ULH is 39 cal. There was news in Feb that the Saudis were evaluating the Bharat 52 and I think their ULH as well. Not sure what happened to that. Probably delayed by covid.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 09 Jul 2020 23:29

Good..There is good reason to induct a light weight 39 cal gun. Affordability and durability.
Besides the maker is Indian.

How much did the Bofors weigh for that's the gun to compare?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 10 Jul 2020 00:45

09 Jul 2020 01:23 Re Ramana

Kalyani Bharat Forge has:-

155mm/"39 caliber" light steel 6.5 tons, Titanium 5 tons & ultra light titanium 4 tons. These are available at a fraction of cost of M777, reportedly around Rs. 4-8 crores each. Also dismantling & reassembling these howitzers is easier compared to M777. So they can be airlifted piece by piece by Mi17s

105mm jeep mounted only weights 900kg. Therefore can quickly reinforce any tactical position.

Apart from above, 155mm/"52 caliber" towed (15 tons) & mounted, both in steel construction while Titanium is ATAGS (12 tons) towed155mm/52 in collaboration with DRDO.

In mountains it makes sense to have cheap (& disposable) steel 155/39 howitzers backed with Pinaka (Guided & ordinary) placed in Depth for long range work.

By disposable, I mean cheap enough to be pre positioned in bulk & abandoned by destroying if position is over run or withdrawal becomes difficult

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby sankum » 10 Jul 2020 01:34

Length of barrel = calibre x 155mm


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