Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 16 Feb 2021 13:24

Anujan wrote:
His impression about summer trials, winter trials, monsoon trials, mountain trials, desert trials, plains trials, winter in desert trials, summer in mountains trials, monsoon in plains trials, proof range trials, user trials, pre-induction trials, .....


A straight-up indictment of the IA leadership. Can't blame the MoD or OFB for this. To screw up artillery procurement in spite of the Kargil lessons is just disgraceful. While they've gotten better at it recently, it was a low-bar to overcome.

The IA leadership loves to talk the brochure-talk about "network centric warfare blah blah blah", but they've managed to mess up

a) Artillery
b) Armor (Arjun saga. Well at least here, they seem to have gotten what they want, even if that's at the expense of our MIC)
c) Infantry (rifles/carbines)

At the end of the day, the grunt son-of-the-soil continues to bail them out: weapons or no weapons

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 16 Feb 2021 20:13

its not about IA.. if MOD babus want, even the gun i have in my backyard will be inducted !!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 19 Feb 2021 05:08

Indian Army deploys K-9 Vajra howitzers in Ladakh for high altitude operations, more orders possible
Indian Army chief Gen Manoj Mukund Naravane inducted the last of the 100 K-9 Vajra guns ordered, three of these howitzers have been deployed for trials in high altitude mountainous area of Ladakh.

Three guns arrived in Leh yesterday and are being transported to a high altitude base to be tested if they can be used in high altitude areas against the enemy, top government sources told ANI on Thursday.

Based on the performance of the guns, the Indian Army would consider placing orders for two to three additional regiments of the self-propelled howitzers for mountain operations, sources said.

The Army chief has been monitoring the induction and operations of the howitzers produced in the
Larsen and Toubro ......
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:
:

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2021 05:13

Finally the link to Armored guns and Tanks is broken..
Armored guns are mobile artillery and much needed for mountain divisions.

Also need to add direct fire sight to these guns. It's already there in India.
It took some time to add it probably on those three guns.

Based on the performance of the guns, the Indian Army would consider placing orders for two to three additional regiments of the self-propelled howitzers for mountain operations, sources said.


It will be every mountain division. Not just 2 or 3 hopefully.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2021 05:14

manjgu wrote:its not about IA.. if MOD babus want, even the gun i have in my backyard will be inducted !!


Those days are over.
Finally MoD is working to Clausewitz preparing for dictum.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 19 Feb 2021 07:42

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 51490?s=20 --->

It's official!! L&T-made 100th K9 VAJRA 155mm/52 calibre Tracked Self-Propelled Howitzer flagged off by India's CoAS; marks completion of all deliveries ahead of schedule. Hope they get more orders ASAP.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/136 ... 76994?s=20 ---> L&T-made 100th K9 VAJRA self propelled howitzer flagged off by Indian Army chief, marks completion of all deliveries ahead of schedule. The production line shouldn’t be allowed to go cold.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 19 Feb 2021 07:43

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 10019?s=20 ---> Indian Army planning to order two to three additional regiments of the K-9 Vajra-T Self Propelled Howitzers (SPH) for deployment in mountainous areas especially Ladakh.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 62052?s=20 --->

* 19 Jan 2019: L&T howitzer plant inaugurated.
* 18 Feb 2021: L&T completed it's order by rolling out the 100th K9 Vajra-T SPH.

Plans to order more.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 19 Feb 2021 13:21

Great news, but as usual, coming around the time when the production line is going idle. Especially with the LAC engagement going on, was the IA twiddling its thumbs all these months - couldn't they have done the Ladakh trials in the past 9 months, instead of waking up when the last production gun is being delivered?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby vimal » 19 Feb 2021 13:28

K9 being a SoKo gun what’s the level of desification?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 19 Feb 2021 13:50

Any new orders should they come, it will take 36-months from new contract signing to start of deliveries. The L&T line will be sitting idle for a long while (like the Arjun line idle for 8 years).

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srin » 19 Feb 2021 14:26

I feel sorry for L&T. They have in very good faith delivered on time, instead of following the OFB/DPSU rates. But tell you what - this the reason why the OFB/DPSU take half a dozen years to deliver on small orders: because the MoD orders are so fickle, it will lead to idle production lines while they await new orders. So, go slow really works.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 19 Feb 2021 14:29

The problem is the original requirement put forth by the IA itself called for only 100 tracked SPH units. Rest of the requirement was to be filled by truck mounted and towed guns (nothing got ordered beyond 114 Dhanush of course). I was wondering about the economics of creating an assembly line in India for an order of just 100 units in the first place. What exactly was/is L&T's plan if IA requirements do not change from the original?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby kvraghav » 19 Feb 2021 14:39

I dont think LnT has invested much here. Everything comes as CKD and they just assemble it.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 19 Feb 2021 14:40

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/status/1362441147738710019?s=20 ---> Indian Army planning to order two to three additional regiments of the K-9 Vajra-T Self Propelled Howitzers (SPH) for deployment in mountainous areas especially Ladakh.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 62052?s=20 --->

* 19 Jan 2019: L&T howitzer plant inaugurated.
* 18 Feb 2021: L&T completed it's order by rolling out the 100th K9 Vajra-T SPH.

Plans to order more.


Just to be clear, the contract was signed in 2017 with L&T initially assembling from CKD/SKD kits supplied from Korea and then progressively from Korean-Indian MSEs.

In 2017, Hanwha Defense signed a contract worth $583 million with the Indian Army to supply 100 K-9 self-propelled artillery guns. ... The contract requires L&T to complete delivery of all 100 K9 Vajra-Ts to the IA by the end of 2020.

https://eurasiantimes.com/india-request ... uth-korea/

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby vimal » 20 Feb 2021 04:05

It’s unrealistic to expect IA to keep buying new military hardware. That’s why we need an export market.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2021 06:00

manjgu or rohit vats,,
Does K-9 come under Armoured Corps or Artillery Corps?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 20 Feb 2021 07:00

Artillery

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 20 Feb 2021 07:03

ramana wrote:manjgu or rohit vats,,
Does K-9 come under Armoured Corps or Artillery Corps?


wiki says artillery

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regiment_ ... ery_(India)

There are several artillery regiments listed that holds SPGs (but without any details). Though in war, they will accompany armored division (per doctrine). The theory is armor division (of the strike corps) will move very fast into enemy territory and you need SPG guns to accompany them, towed maybe too slow.

In LAC, on a flat ground and in maneuvering warfare, they could be devastating (so would be well concealed, reverse slope static gun, but only till 20 km or so from lac). If we move deep into Chinese territory, it is the K-9 that would matter. And having that would unsettle the Chinese. They will not only have to plan if what their offense fails (if India is defensive only if they fail, they lose not much except for the face and a bloody nose), but also now India can come deep and occupy land. They have to increase force structure and be circumspect of their actions. If they increase force structure here (to avoid an offense that may never come, but thanks to K-9 and perhaps Arjun is always there), they have to dial down somewhere else. Thus giving us breathing room.

That was the point of having a Mountain Strike Corp. To present the Chinese with an offensive option. If we defend only, the Chinese do not have much to lose in a war. If we win, we have only thrawted their advance, if we lose, they take our land. But if we have a strike component, now the game is different, losing or draw is a bad option for them, for they lose vast territory. Plus the fear and unpredictability of offense ties down a large force in the rear.

Given how tough the LAC is having that extra offensive capability perhaps closes the salami-slicing/war option for them. However I feel, the current turn of events may have anyway achieved that, just as Balakot ended TSP nuclear umbrella for terrorist activity. If chinese are any smart, they will lick their wounds and retreat permanently or in future, we have to force this consideration on them. For that we need K-9s and Arjun at LAC.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rishi_Tri » 20 Feb 2021 07:20

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/status/1362441147738710019?s=20 ---> Indian Army planning to order two to three additional regiments of the K-9 Vajra-T Self Propelled Howitzers (SPH) for deployment in mountainous areas especially Ladakh.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 62052?s=20 --->

* 19 Jan 2019: L&T howitzer plant inaugurated.
* 18 Feb 2021: L&T completed it's order by rolling out the 100th K9 Vajra-T SPH.

Plans to order more.


Interesting especially deployment in Ladakh. Are ATAGS also going to be deployed in Ladakh. Saw reports on that!!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 20 Feb 2021 10:39

vimal wrote:K9 being a SoKo gun what’s the level of desification?


Per a defence AV, it is 50% by Value and 80% by parts volume. L&T did a phenomenal job in engaging the MSME sector and got nearly 1000 different enterprises to develop 13,000 different parts that goes in the K9.

Though beats me on how fruitful or profitable an exercise would it be for the concerned businesses to do this for confirmed order of just 100 Units.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2021 10:58

100 were trial order. Now makes sense for all armoured guns to be K9.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 20 Feb 2021 11:19

Par of the planned orders for mounted gun system can be replaced with the K9.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby niran » 20 Feb 2021 12:06

Rishi_Tri wrote:
Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/status/1362441147738710019?s=20 ---> Indian Army planning to order two to three additional regiments of the K-9 Vajra-T Self Propelled Howitzers (SPH) for deployment in mountainous areas especially Ladakh.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 62052?s=20 --->

* 19 Jan 2019: L&T howitzer plant inaugurated.
* 18 Feb 2021: L&T completed it's order by rolling out the 100th K9 Vajra-T SPH.

Plans to order more.


Interesting especially deployment in Ladakh. Are ATAGS also going to be deployed in Ladakh. Saw reports on that!!

Towed arty need prepared ground to be set up SPGs do not they just roll over bear the guns load fire reload fire reload fire and scoot away to some other spot. that said before folks says then why spend on towed arty the answer is if Towed arty is Black sugerless coffe SPGs are creamed with sugar coffe need both of them.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby niran » 20 Feb 2021 12:08

Pratyush wrote:Par of the planned orders for mounted gun system can be replaced with the K9.

exactly sir, all other forms of SPGs project will be replaced with K9 Vajra and its future upgrades.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby csaurabh » 20 Feb 2021 13:50

Vips wrote:
vimal wrote:K9 being a SoKo gun what’s the level of desification?


Per a defence AV, it is 50% by Value and 80% by parts volume. L&T did a phenomenal job in engaging the MSME sector and got nearly 1000 different enterprises to develop 13,000 different parts that goes in the K9.

Though beats me on how fruitful or profitable an exercise would it be for the concerned businesses to do this for confirmed order of just 100 Units.


Eh, 100 is fine for economy of scale. If no hard tooling is involved, I don't think any manufacturer would object to a production run of 100 units.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 20 Feb 2021 16:19

Truck mounted guns would be cheaper than the tracked SPH guns. For IA tracked SPH guns were required only for the three strike corps for the western front.
Now with the K9T Vajra being sent to Ladakh for testing, there is some speculation that additional orders might be placed for the Ladakh sector.
The K9T-Vajra weighs close to 50 tons. So its not easy moving it around in the northeast or other sectors.

For most other requirements, the towed and truck mounted guns should be enough. The only problem is the placement of orders.
OFB had displayed a prototype truck mounted gun with the Dhanush-52 gun and truck from BEML (most likely Tatra based) and Tata had a prototype truck mounted gun on their own truck platform with a Denel 52 caliber gun.
The Tata offering can be modified by changing the gun to ATAGS or Dhanush-52 or the Bharat-52 gun from Kalyani. Maybe the recoil of the ATAGS gun might be too much for a truck chassis and the later two options might be better. All the electronics for the gun were reportedly to be from Tata SED only. Now, with ATAGS, all the electronics are already indigenous.

The Kalyani ULH has also apparently been tested, but no further progress. Even the Dhanush-52 from OFB, tested internally, but no further progress.
News of Saudi interest in Bharat-52 from Kalyani have also surfaced. But no news of IA being interested in the same. Really odd situation. Whereas news about almost imminent orders for ATHOS guns have been doing the rounds for a while. (from the likes on Manu Pubby etc)

Hope the order for the 150 LSP guns for ATAGS gets sanctioned at the earliest along with finalizing the truck mounted guns and progress on further deliveries of Dhanush and development of Dhanush-52 and Kalyani ULH.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 20 Feb 2021 18:24

For the LAC, Kalyani's Pick-up van mounted 105MM and 4X4 mounted 155MM(39 caliber) guns would be ideal. These are ultra maneuverable and weigh less then the light and medium transport trucks of the Indian Army!!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby niran » 20 Feb 2021 20:00

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Zok5Wu1DQYg

you tube link of K9 live fire excersice things to note are in the begning
please note
1. 2 bhkisque space
2. no rear dozer or any other external recoil support just park and fire
3. 6 ready rounds and rest in cannisters
4. manual dialing of rounds
5. full auto loading including charge
6. turret rotation
7. digital fire control

they did not show chamber mopping or trigger mechanism sigh!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby niran » 20 Feb 2021 20:09

Vips wrote:For the LAC, Kalyani's Pick-up van mounted 105MM and 4X4 mounted 155MM(39 caliber) guns would be ideal. These are ultra maneuverable and weigh less then the light and medium transport trucks of the Indian Army!!

AFAIR there a Garud project for 105mm pickup mounted system, whatever happened to it.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kashi » 21 Feb 2021 13:10

SoKo under Moon are quite chummy with PRC these days, along with going all out to appease NoKo and distance themselves from Japan; we may want to factor this should we go for more K9s.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 25 Feb 2021 08:44

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 66625?s=20 ---> MoD has cleared the 48km ranged Pinaka Mk-1 MBRL for export. L&T Defence has been chosen as the sales authority. L&T had in the past successfully exported naval ships & weapons. Companies like L&T, Godrej & Boyce, Solar Industries & TATA etc. are involved in Pinaka's production.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 25 Feb 2021 12:51

ramana wrote:Finally the link to Armored guns and Tanks is broken..
Armored guns are mobile artillery and much needed for mountain divisions.

Also need to add direct fire sight to these guns. It's already there in India.
It took some time to add it probably on those three guns.

Based on the performance of the guns, the Indian Army would consider placing orders for two to three additional regiments of the self-propelled howitzers for mountain operations, sources said.


It will be every mountain division. Not just 2 or 3 hopefully.


- Eastern Ladakh is not your mountain warfare territory as per IA's definition.
- That's why 3 Division is classified as 3 Infantry Division and not as 3 Mountain Division.
- The new Independent brigade raised under 14 Corps is an infantry brigade, and not mountain brigades.
- This classification between a mountain and standard infantry division comes from the scale and type of equipment held across all constituent sub-units.
- Its not a simple case of changing the name or tinkering with one or other item.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 25 Feb 2021 13:18

ramana wrote:manjgu or rohit vats,,
Does K-9 come under Armoured Corps or Artillery Corps?


Artillery brigade structure for reference. Will help to understand procurement and deployment -

1. Division artillery brigade -

- All divisions have an organic artillery brigade.

- Earlier, for an infantry division in plains, the structure was as follows:
3 x Field Regiments (105mm) + 1 x Medium Regiment (130mm) + 1 x Light Regiment (120mm mortars).

- In early 90s, IA went in for massive purchase of 130mm M-46 guns which came as a windfall on destruction of USSR.

- It is my understanding that IA converted many of its Field Regiments to Medium Regiments. So, this 3:1 ratio of Field to Medium no longer holds. Most divisional artillery is now of medium caliber.

- In case of Armored Division, it was 4 x Medium Regiments (130mm)

- For Mountain Divisions, it is same as Infantry Division but with Light Field Guns (LFG) instead of IFG, as LFG are lighter.

- Arty brigades in plains also have Surveillance and Target Acquisition (SATA) battery (counter-bombardment role)

- In some cases, SATA battery has been upgraded to a full-fledged SATA Regiments and these also operate the UAVs of the IA.

2. Corps Artillery Brigade -

- Not many left now as some were used as nucleus to raise the three Artillery Divisions.

3. Artillery Division -

- Tube artillery brigade
- Composite Artillery Brigade (Rocket and Missile Regiments)

--------

- So, to answer your question, K-9 will go the Armored Division's organic artillery brigade.
- Technically, we need 12 x 18 = 216 K-9 units only for the armored divisions.
- But then, if people remember, the SP Arty order was split between Tracked and Wheeled SP Arty.
- Wheeled SP Arty was the famous South African G6 gun.
- Numbers were 100+180 (IIRC)
- But with Wheeled SP Gun category dropped, expect the 180 order to translate into K-9 or part K-9 and part Mounted Gun System (MGS).
- Even more important than K-9 is the Wheeled Mounted Gun System (814 units) as these will percolate to all the required formations and fill the need for SP Arty.

------

But the above is of course, on paper. With MOD now being pro-active and working in 'get what you have now, rather than wait for Godot', I don't doubt K-9 appearing in organic arty brigade of 3 Infantry Division, or as organic arty regiment of (I) Armored Brigade there.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 27 Feb 2021 22:54

great knowledge transfer.

I too hope more K-9s

One question how are Independent armored brigades organized?

3 tank regiments and 1 SP regiment plus medium regiment?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby krishna_krishna » 27 Feb 2021 23:16

ramana wrote:
One question how are Independent armored brigades organized?

3 tank regiments and 1 SP regiment plus medium regiment?



Correct, independent armoured brigades (3+1) of the Pivot Corps

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 28 Feb 2021 12:35

krishna_krishna wrote:
ramana wrote:
One question how are Independent armored brigades organized?

3 tank regiments and 1 SP regiment plus medium regiment?



Correct, independent armoured brigades (3+1) of the Pivot Corps


Wrong. 3+1 means 3 Armd Regts + 1 Mech Inf Regt. Not 3 Armd + 1 SP Arty. Armd Bdes are always 2+1 (Armd Bdes of Armd Divs) , 2+2 (RAPIDs, Ladakh, Sikkim), 3+1 (Pivot Corps in plains),

There is no integral arty with Indp Armd Bde. Integral arty is always at Div level. So for an Indp Armd Bde any arty support will be from Corps Arty.

Arty concept is basically 1/1.5 Arty Regts : 3 Inf, Armd, Mech. Thats why a Div Arty Bde has 4 Arty Regts min. 1 each to support the 3 Inf Bdes and 1 more as reserve to bring to bear where more firepower is needed as battle develop

Final note - Orbats can and will change in battle as situation develops. Structures cater for that.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby krishna_krishna » 01 Mar 2021 06:45

Akshay Kapoor wrote:
krishna_krishna wrote:


Thank you for correcting sir. I was under the impression that only IBG's were to be structured around the area of operations and role. Ind. arrmored brigade in my mind were more rigid and hence need of IBG concept in addition to time for mobilization.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 01 Mar 2021 07:35

So where do SP artillery fit in an armored formation?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ks_sachin » 01 Mar 2021 07:44

ramana wrote:So where do SP artillery fit in an armored formation?


K-9 will go to the Armored Division's organic artillery brigade according to Mr Vats.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 01 Mar 2021 16:15

krishna_krishna wrote:
Akshay Kapoor wrote:


Thank you for correcting sir. I was under the impression that only IBG's were to be structured around the area of operations and role. Ind. arrmored brigade in my mind were more rigid and hence need of IBG concept in addition to time for mobilization.



You are right. When I said Orbats can change in operations I meant that more Inf Bns can be allocated to a Inf Bde depending on how the Op is going. A Div may get an additional Bde for a task, a Corps may get another Div. But the command structure is preserved. Since this is Arty thread, let me give you a Inf/Arty example to illustrate better. 1 or more Arty Regts may be in ''Support'' of an Inf Bde / Amd Bde but will always be under ''Command'' of the Arty Bde. The Arty CO will report to Arty Bde Commander not to the Infantry or Armoured Bde Commander. His ACR will be written by his Arty Bde Commander not by the Inf/Armd Bde Commander. Hope the diff between ''in support'' and ''under command'' is clear. Organic assets are under command. Arty is organic only at Div level via arty bde.

Say 2 assaults are on by 2 bns and a logistics target also comes up via the ISR assets. Now both assaulting COs naturally want max arty fire support for their assaults to minimize casualities. But lgs base is also important. So if the Inf COs, Bde Commander have a difference of opinion with the Arty COs/ Bde Commander with respect to fire plan, then the Arty Bde Commander prevails. That makes sense because he controls the arty (4/5 regts) of the entire Div and he is best placed to decide how to employ for max effect.Primarily because arty fire is long range. Thats why arty control is centralised at Div via the Arty Bde.

Armour and Mech are different. Their guns are not long range so they have to be co located. So typically the 2+1, 2+2 and 3+1 Armour/Mech do not usually change. But a RAPID Div commander may decide to detach 1 Armoured Regt + mech company for a special task in support of one of his infantry bdes. Corps Commander of Pivot Corps may do same. All depends on the situation. But usually they will try not to break up the armoured brigades.

IBG is very different. It is ground up all arms formation with unity of command that are located and trained together for a very specific task. So the 1/2 Arty COs of IBG will report to the IBG commander. They are not in support but under command.

Hope that clarifies.


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