Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Atmavik
BRFite
Posts: 1985
Joined: 24 Aug 2016 04:43

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

I will stop after this as it is going OT.

From today’s PM’s speech

"One of the reasons for the success of the campaign was the trust that people developed in the vaccine and the process followed, despite various efforts to create mistrust and panic," he added.
"There are some among us who only trust foreign brands, even for simple everyday necessities. However, when it came to something as crucial as the COVID-19 vaccine, the people of India unanimously trusted 'Made in India'' vaccines. This is a significant paradigm shift," he said.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

https://twitter.com/dpkpillay12/status/ ... 47785?s=20

Image

Image



Finally, we are seeing the barrel failures. They all are due to the shell exploding inside the barrel. The fuze is supposed to actuate after a set distance. See the tank round splitting the barrel in ductile fracture. The rest are a brittle failure. And shell has traveled a distance.
m_saini
BRFite
Posts: 767
Joined: 23 May 2020 20:25

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by m_saini »

^ Great article. Also
The case study of a rival firm Czech firearms company Ceska Zbrojovka Group (CZG) buying out the legendary Colt, which has been manufacturing firearms since the early 19th century, for $220 million has evaded our mandarins even though our own purchase order was larger than this buyout.
wow.
jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5727
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

It maybe possible to get some extra range on Indo Tibet border. Yet it doesn't mean that the accuracy will be good enough for use against military targets. Strong winds, temperature gradients and other factors strongly influence the trajectory and any such gain in range are ok only of they are shelling a city.

They boast that imported guns have this extra range. Don't Indian guns have the same too?

Additionally, a bulk of Chinese tube and rocket artillery is smaller 122 mm which is quite mobile. They even have self propelled mortars for close support to infantry. We don't have anything similar.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

jamwal wrote:It maybe possible to get some extra range on Indo Tibet border. Yet it doesn't mean that the accuracy will be good enough for use against military targets. Strong winds, temperature gradients and other factors strongly influence the trajectory and any such gain in range are ok only of they are shelling a city.
That's only a problem if you don't have a correcting fuse, guidance kit or a precision round that can get both range and accuracy. Without addressing accuracy, the extended range shots from larger caliber guns will also not be very useful in such terrain or where you don't have very high density or large concentrated enemy deployments. But high accuracy at range is a problem that is now well solved particularly in the 40-50 km range (60-70 is still a work in progress).
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

40 km range with ERFB-BB shells is old news when shot from 45 calibre guns.

This was achieved in the 80s it self by South Africans and others using Gerald Bull and his expertise.

PRC was also a recipient of his expertise during the 80s through South Africans and more mercantile Europeans.

WRT, Indian's justification for imports for range. I see this as yet another symptom of malaise in the Indian armed forces leadership.

That they have totally missed the development of Bharat Forge purchasing Austrian plant and TATA group's alliances with the South African gun makers. Or Punj Lloyd buying a the Dutch gun makers for the tech.

But to be expected from the people who have not even allowed their own gun ranges to be used for testing purposes by Indian Pvt sector companies.

PS: ATAGS is also based on South Africans research. BUT IT'S TOO HEAVY.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:4

But to be expected from the people who have not even allowed their own gun ranges to be used for testing purposes by Indian Pvt sector companies.

Unfortunately that was a decision by the MoD. AHQ needs clearance to allow anything like this.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Did they ask for permission?


Or were they happy about the latest gun to be imported by India.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

From what I recollect AHQ was okay with it but MoD shot it.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Thinking about the MODs refusal to permit testing of domestic guns by the army I am quite perplexed.

If the MOD doesn't have to face and costs and is not required to commit to purchasing the gun's in the absence of any program of record.

Then what is the issue with the testing of the gun's?
vera_k
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3982
Joined: 20 Nov 2006 13:45

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by vera_k »

MoD is a competitor to any private producer via its ownership of the OFB. How is that conflict of interest resolved?
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20772
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

It's all on L1 basis now. Only in rare cases is nomination followed. Pechora upgrade was won by ADTL against DPSUs as former was L1.

Also, MOD test facilities are now available to the pvt sector. So this issue is no longer relevant. GOI has fixed it.

https://www.makeinindiadefence.gov.in/p ... ate-sector
In order to facilitate the Indian private industry for testing/ trials, proof firing or field firing of their products, Government has offered the test facilities/ proof ranges/ Field firing ranges available with OFB, DPSUs, DGQA, DGAQA, DRDO,SHQ(Army), SHQ(Navy), SHQ(Air Force) to private industry. The guidelines for Test Facilities offered by the Government issued on 28th Aug 2019 can be downloaded here.
An Standard Operating Procedure (SoP) for allotment and utilisation of proof and field firing ranges can be downloaded here.
Nodal officers have been designated to assist the industry in this regard.
List of Test Facilities offered by each Government entity is available at their respective websites.Please click on the relevant link to know more about the facilities being offered
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Well 2019 is a day late and a dollar short.

We are 5 years behind where we should have been in terms of artillery capacity at the minimum. The Dhanush procurement process should have been completed.

But OFB zindabad.

Victory has a thousand fathers. Defeat is an orphan.

But in our case, defeat will have a thousand fathers.

Because we keep on blowing hand grenades at our own heads. It's a wonder how we have survived this long.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

How about you made your point and its been addressed. So lets not beat a dead cobra.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 96176?s=20 ---> So finally confirmation that both Smerch and Pinaka MLRS deployed in Tawang.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

In terms of accuracy, we have PGK type kit in developed under the TDF project. In the meantime, we could actually get some PGK kit and see how it performs on ATAGS.

We anyways have M777 and we know it will work with it. PGK is meant to mass, so it would more preferable to use it with ATAGS, Dhanush, Sarang etc.

But sigh, only god knows when we will get the numbers.
brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10694
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

nam wrote:In terms of accuracy, we have PGK type kit in developed under the TDF project. In the meantime, we could actually get some PGK kit and see how it performs on ATAGS.

We anyways have M777 and we know it will work with it. PGK is meant to mass, so it would more preferable to use it with ATAGS, Dhanush, Sarang etc.

But sigh, only god knows when we will get the numbers.
The IA already purchased the more capable and more expensive Excalibur so I suspect they could also have purchased some PGK kits as well under the emergency authorization. Some of the medium or long range artillery ranges being spoken of here require some sort of course correction otherwise miss distances will be large which is not ideal in mountains or some of the other use cases (like destroying fortifications, bunkers etc)
Last edited by brar_w on 23 Oct 2021 05:00, edited 1 time in total.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

The South Koreans are the best on impact videos. This video tells you why artillery is and will be the God of war. Look at the coverage area.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Nam, You are right. India has a PGK fuze being produced under the TDF program.
Also a laser guided kit for shells under TGM.

So things will only get better.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32225
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

ks_sachin wrote:From what I recollect AHQ was okay with it but MoD shot it.

maybe they know best about bread and butter, the babooze usually have a very keen eye on such "technical" matters
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25085
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 96176?s=20 ---> So finally confirmation that both Smerch and Pinaka MLRS deployed in Tawang.
From the reports, it looks like Pinaka-1, not the ER Mk-1 or Mk-2 or Guided Pinaka.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20772
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

This is the report everyone is referencing.

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/14514289 ... UOY2A&s=19

And Brahmos mentioned too.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 2.ece/amp/

This level of transparency is clearly an open signal to China to back off. This is not IMHO just an all is well sort of display. We seem to be signaling our preparedness openly.
ShivS
BRFite
Posts: 142
Joined: 19 Apr 2019 23:25

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ShivS »

brar_w wrote:
The IA already purchased the more capable and more expensive Excalibur so I suspect they could also have purchased some PGK kits as well under the emergency authorization. Some of the medium or long range artillery ranges being spoken of here require some sort of course correction otherwise miss distances will be large which is not ideal in mountains or some of the other use cases (like destroying fortifications, bunkers etc)
Fire missions with the M777 need to be short - can’t do the conventional number of rounds due to logistics and wear and tear issues as well as your point that in mountains, especially on slopes, a miss by 10 meters is a miss. That system needs precision rounds like the Excalibur.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIframePa ... ID=1759416

A few days ago it was reported that the army was procuring 33000 + Terminally Guided Munitions from a domestic source.

This coupled with the Excalibur will give a potent precision strike capacity to the Indian artillery.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4215
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Is there any indigenous terminally guided munition for artillery?

For Pinaka, yes. I am unaware for shells.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The development program for such kits was initiated 6-7 years ago.

Given Indian capabilities, in design and fabrication, it should have reached fruition by now.

The RFQ was issued in 2014.

https://indianarmy.nic.in/MakeInIndia/w ... 080814.pdf
Last edited by Pratyush on 23 Oct 2021 13:14, edited 2 times in total.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12187
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Looking at the images of the shattered gun barrels.

As someone with a non engeneering background. I have a question regarding the testing of the metallurgy and strength of different materials.

In oil and natural gas industry or even for municipal applications it is required that the pipes be fit to handle certain amount of flow and pressure on a daily basis for a certain period of time. Before it reaches a point of failure and needs to be replaced.

1) How is this quality assured for customers?

2) Is it possible for non invasive means such as x-rays or ultrasound be used to check for flaws in materials?

3) Can such techniques be used to assure the quality of the arty gun barrels as well?
jaysimha
BRFite
Posts: 1696
Joined: 20 Dec 2017 14:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jaysimha »

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... n/2354963/
Modernisation of the Army’s Artillery – issues remain
October 22, 2021 5:40 PM
By Lt Gen Anil Ahuja,
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

Our artillery modernization is the biggest paradox for the pat 3 decades.

Previously import was the only solution and the relevant making schemes blocking the deals.
Now there is overwhelming local options
Mahindra: M777
L&T: K9
BF: ATAGS, Bharat52, ULWH, truck mounted 105, 155 you name it
OFB: Dhanush/Bofors

Does any country has so many artillery type being built locally?

Yet Artillery is not happy and is looking at Athos with plans to let OFB build it, who could not produce Dhanush! It is as if Artillery doesn't want to progress themselves :roll:

And there is a tiny winy problem of a 16T GDP nation's army mobilized on our border for a conflict! Surreal..
Atmavik
BRFite
Posts: 1985
Joined: 24 Aug 2016 04:43

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

nam wrote:Our artillery modernization is the biggest paradox for the pat 3 decades.

Previously import was the only solution and the relevant making schemes blocking the deals.
Now there is overwhelming local options
Mahindra: M777
L&T: K9
BF: ATAGS, Bharat52, ULWH, truck mounted 105, 155 you name it
OFB: Dhanush/Bofors

Does any country has so many artillery type being built locally?

Yet Artillery is not happy and is looking at Athos with plans to let OFB build it, who could not produce Dhanush! It is as if Artillery doesn't want to progress themselves :roll:

And there is a tiny winy problem of a 16T GDP nation's army mobilized on our border for a conflict! Surreal..
I am confused.. do we love ofb or hate ofb ?
niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5535
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

nam wrote:The South Koreans are the best on impact videos. This video tells you why artillery is and will be the God of war. Look at the coverage area.
show baazi onree assembling 12 guns just 2 meters apart is recipe for disaster just 2 shells air bursting at 10 meter hieght and that battery kaput
sankum
BRFite
Posts: 1150
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by sankum »

Fire and scoot.
niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5535
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

ramana wrote:https://twitter.com/dpkpillay12/status/ ... 47785?s=20



Finally, we are seeing the barrel failures. They all are due to the shell exploding inside the barrel. The fuze is supposed to actuate after a set distance. See the tank round splitting the barrel in ductile fracture. The rest are a brittle failure. And shell has traveled a distance.
almost confirm it is the shell lack of QA QC not the gun fault
niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5535
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

sankum wrote:Fire and scoot.
saar there is a reason minimum distance between two guns must be 25 meters and it should be haphazardly placed not lined up into neat circle line triangle wagera wagera you never know you are spotted till enemy shell scream down on you then it would be too late
niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5535
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

WRT locally produced arty shell guidance yes we have been producing since 2019 currently IA has guidance kit even for mortar rounds. without guidance ATAGS would have been still born, as for why no purchase arrdaar? rest assured situation iz ander kantrol.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4282
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

Of Excalibur’s caliber? Like off axis flight?
shaun
BRFite
Posts: 1385
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by shaun »

niran wrote:WRT locally produced arty shell guidance yes we have been producing since 2019 currently IA has guidance kit even for mortar rounds. without guidance ATAGS would have been still born, as for why no purchase arrdaar? rest assured situation iz ander kantrol.
Are you taking about precession guidance kit or course correction Fuze

Folks here can enlighten, how the coordinates are feeded to this shells . Firing I guess is done in the general direction with elevation for maximum range and this shells with some brake mechanism guided to the target during terminal phase.

Added later

For Non Satellite Navigated Shells , Muzzle velocity radar sends range correction to shell and for Satellite Navigated Shells , shells are pre programmed and course correction through satellite
niran
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5535
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 16:01

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

shaun wrote:
niran wrote:WRT locally produced arty shell guidance yes we have been producing since 2019 currently IA has guidance kit even for mortar rounds. without guidance ATAGS would have been still born, as for why no purchase arrdaar? rest assured situation iz ander kantrol.
Are you taking about precession guidance kit or course correction Fuze

Folks here can enlighten, how the coordinates are feeded to this shells . Firing I guess is done in the general direction with elevation for maximum range and this shells with some brake mechanism guided to the target during terminal phase.

Added later

For Non Satellite Navigated Shells , Muzzle velocity radar sends range correction to shell and for Satellite Navigated Shells , shells are pre programmed and course correction through satellite
read up on arty targeting lasing methods you will understand.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

SSridhar wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 96176?s=20 ---> So finally confirmation that both Smerch and Pinaka MLRS deployed in Tawang.
From the reports, it looks like Pinaka-1, not the ER Mk-1 or Mk-2 or Guided Pinaka.
https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/14 ... 92738?s=20 ---> A Pinaka launcher, along with the older Smerch demonstrates abilities to quickly bring down devastating Rocket fire on the enemy. Currently at a training area on the Assam Arunachal border, these long range vectors are tasked for forward positions on the LAC.

Image

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/14 ... 09952?s=20 ---> A Pinaka launcher takes up quick firing position towards the Line of Actual Control (LAC) as part of a training drill and demonstration in the Eastern sector.

Image
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18190
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 26567?s=20 ---> Report: BrahMos cruise missiles also deployed in Tawang sector of Arunachal Pradesh.
Post Reply