Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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VinodTK
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

From India Today
What’s behind a massive order for Made-in-India howitzers
The defence ministry has begun moving files to place a repeat order of 200 more 155mm tracked self-propelled howitzers worth over Rs 10,000 crore.

This significant order, to be placed with Larsen & Toubro (L&T) sometime this year, is the largest order placed with an Indian private sector defence firm and is a potential booster dose for the government’s plan to modernise the military, create an industrial defence base and reduce defence imports.

A self-propelled gun is a tank chassis fitted with a howitzer designed to provide firepower to mobile columns. A K9 Vajra weighs 50 tonnes and can fire shells out to over 50 kilometres. L&T had delivered 100 K-9 Vajras for Rs 4,500 crore in partnership with South Korean defence firm Hanwha Defense. The contract was signed in May 2017 and the 100th gun delivered to the army on February 2021. It remains the largest Make in India programmes signed and completed on this government’s watch.
It is also the fastest way for the army to acquire modern artillery systems.

A new order, which could be placed by this year, will see the guns start to roll out of Hazira by 2023 with all deliveries completed before 2028. A large number of these guns will be specially modified with uprated engines to operate in the high altitude cold deserts of Ladakh and Sikkim.


It is not a stretch to believe this massive order could be one of the highlights of Defexpo 2022, the defence ministry’s biennial land and naval systems exhibition. The 12th instalment of Defexpo is to be held in Gandhinagar, Gujarat, between March 10 and 13. It also coincides with the government’s drive to make Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s home state a defence industrial hub.

Until last year, the army had planned to order only one more K9 regiment. How then did this become a humongous 10 regiments? One reason, clearly, was China’s military deployment, which began in eastern Ladakh in May 2020.

The army’s five existing regiments of Vajras (each regiment has 18 guns, not counting the two in reserve) were acquired not for the mountains, but to operate with the Indian army’s three strike corps ranged across the plains of the Punjab and the semi-deserts of Rajasthan. The People’s Liberation Army deployment and the subsequent activation of the entire northern and eastern borders saw the army scramble to acquire modern artillery. Late last year, three K9s were moved up into eastern Ladakh on a trial basis. A senior artillery officer in the Udhampur-based Northern command was a key mover behind this unusual deployment. The guns drove up from Leh to the forward areas of eastern Ladakh on their own power (instead of a tank transporter-trailer), demonstrating their ability to operate independently. What seemed to have been forgotten was that these guns had been originally designed to operate in South Korea, a rugged mountainous country with a hostile neighbor and with climatic conditions that could mimic those of eastern Ladakh. The Indian army K9s, however, still needed to be modified with a special low temperature kit in the field with L&T engineers. The range tables and the software that guided these guns was modified, again in the field, by the engineers. The guns are believed to have performed exceedingly well, which strengthened their case for more guns.
“If you don’t have at least 10 more regiments of self-propelled artillery, you will fall short all over the border,” says Lt General P Ravi Shankar, former Director General Artillery.

The army’s own howitzer acquisitions were going nowhere. Its insistence on acquiring 400 ‘Athos’ towed howitzers from Israeli firm Elbit were repeatedly rebuffed by the MoD and the case finally closed late last year. The MoD argued, correctly it would seem, that imports would kill indigenous howitzer capabilities developed over the years by a range of private and public sector developers. Seen from the army’s point of view, the two most promising indigenous artillery systems are yet to deliver. Design defects on the Dhanush, an indigenous version of the FH-77B Bofors, have jeopardised an army order for 114 guns. The DRDO-designed Advanced Towed Array Gun System (ATAGS), built indigenously by Tata Defense and Bharat Forge, is yet to clear army trials. The army believes it could take these guns at least until 2025 to pass its stringent trials.

The army hence cannibalised its requirement for nine regiments of wheeled howitzers—a 155 mm howitzer mounted on a 6x6 armoured vehicle—to make way for the K9s. The wheeled howitzer programme was one of five different types of howitzers projected after the Kargil War and whose requirement was accepted by the government. Around 3,000 new guns were to be procured in the towed, wheeled and tracked (on a tank chassis, like the K-9) mounted gun systems (on a truck chassis) and ultra-light howitzer categories. Only the mounted gun systems and the wheeled howitzers are to be acquired. The second category now seems to have been scrapped.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by vimal »

^^ Thank you China! Just like 62.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The article makes it sound like the army is making a compromise and not makeing the most logical decision.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Just last October 2021 Pak got last of 245 M109L armored guns shipped from Italy.

While IA was agonizing over wheeled vs tracked catalog shopping.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

ramana wrote:Just last October 2021 Pak got last of 245 M109L armored guns shipped from Italy.

While IA was agonizing over wheeled vs tracked catalog shopping.
OT, but how is a system used for 30 years by any Army- which will be rough and tough with questionable spares support be useful- its Beggers cant be choosers syndrome.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by putnanja »

I think we are at a stage where we need to welcome any additions to Artillery. Their 20-30 year plan went for a toss.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

You are missing the point.

It's about brid in hand being worth 2 in the bush. The K9 is in hand.

On the other hand, the proposed 6*6 armoured SPH. Could only have been met by the G6. Something that has been out of production for nearly 20 year's.

So this was really a case of not being able to meet requirements for over 20 year's. Yet instead of merging it into K9 contract. With an order of 300+ weapons. The army was looking at its shopping list.

Secondly don't dismiss the TSPA's second hand M109 out of hand. The system has seen service in dozens of nations and has upgrade packages available from multiple sources, including Turkey.

So they are going to make do with what they can get their hands on.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by sum »

Design defects on the Dhanush, an indigenous version of the FH-77B Bofors, have jeopardised an army order for 114 guns. The DRDO-designed Advanced Towed Array Gun System (ATAGS), built indigenously by Tata Defense and Bharat Forge, is yet to clear army trials. The army believes it could take these guns at least until 2025 to pass its stringent trials.
End of my wet dream of ever seeing Desi guns being pumped out in large numbers
Will never hope for such miracles ever again.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

sum wrote: End of my wet dream of ever seeing Desi guns being pumped out in large numbers
Will never hope for such miracles ever again.
In the ultimate analysis, it dosent matter what the army is saying. Athos has been cancelled. The army has a simple choice, take what is available in country or go without any new howitzers.

Post election in 2019 upon learning that RNS would be the Raksha Mantri. I was quite despondent that MOD & services by extension will never be brought to heel.

Boy how I was wrong.

Have some faith, it will turn out to be okay in the end.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

Pratyush wrote: Post election in 2019 upon learning that RNS would be the Raksha Mantri. I was quite despondent that MOD & services by extension will never be brought to heel.

Boy how I was wrong.
RNS is the most underestimated political leader and Minister. He did really well as Home Minister also.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

Pratyush wrote:...
Post election in 2019 upon learning that RNS would be the Raksha Mantri. I was quite despondent that MOD & services by extension will never be brought to heel.

Boy how I was wrong.

Have some faith, it will turn out to be okay in the end.
<OT>Have faith... but more than that spread it as much as possible (the non-dharmics go further and proselytize) and make sure that you and the faithful vote. Better to have BJP in power and be able to moan & gripe in hopeful expectation rather than have the coalition of the corrupt as the rulers and again be helpless in our rage & dismay with hopeless despondency</OT>
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

1) Great news that the IA will go for 200 more K9's. The order could have been placed before the line went idle (could've saved 2 years at least), but by the standards of our artillery program, this is lightning speed

2) The DG Artillery must be given the twin goals: (a) Ramping up to the 3000 guns within an aggressive timeframe and (b) Doing it with indigenous systems. If only the latter goal is emphasized, what'll end up happening is that they will mope over the lack of Athos, not buy ATAGS/Dhanush either (endless trials) and go to the next war unprepared but with lofty slogans ("we will fight with what we have"), while lifafa journos will blame Modi for stifling IA's preparedness. Our RM will be forced to rush to Israel & others, begging for arms/alms

3) Just like the PM, RM and CDS got into the details of the MoD procurement mess and put their foot down, its incumbent upon the COAS to do the same with DG Artillery & DGMF. He can't delegate and hope things turn out ok. He needs to read them the riot-act and micro-manage.

4) Promotions within the Forces and elevation to CDS must have Atmanirbharta as a key criterion. Create a competitive environment where officers, generals etc hustle to show what they have done to promote Atmanirbharta. Sideline those who gripe & wish for the good old gravy train.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

VinodTK wrote:From India Today
What’s behind a massive order for Made-in-India howitzers
Seen from the army’s point of view, the two most promising indigenous artillery systems are yet to deliver. Design defects on the Dhanush, an indigenous version of the FH-77B Bofors, have jeopardised an army order for 114 guns. The DRDO-designed Advanced Towed Array Gun System (ATAGS), built indigenously by Tata Defense and Bharat Forge, is yet to clear army trials. The army believes it could take these guns at least until 2025 to pass its stringent trials.
So that is IA's plan - keep testing ATAGS till 2025. The induction date in 2028 but oh in 2027 we can start calling ATAGS obsolete.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

I think even better, children allowed to study abroad must be based on atmanirbhara criteria for both forces and MOD Babus.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by rajkumar »

YashG wrote:
So that is IA's plan - keep testing ATAGS till 2025. The induction date in 2028 but oh in 2027 we can start calling ATAGS obsolete.
Also the hope is that Modi loses in 2024, so that the looting can start again.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

The K9 deployments around LAC and its performance must have convinced the IA to get more of these guns.
Should credit Lt Gen PR Shankar for suggesting the K9 deployments to counter the vaunted PLA combat brigades.
He pointed out the direct fire mode with the Indian sight system would be valuable.
People started saying cold weather etc not realizing K9 works fine in Finland.
Yes, high altitude requires a turbocharged engine.
So these versions will get the uprated engine.
Hope it clarifies.

PS: Folks keep it technical.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

sum wrote:
Design defects on the Dhanush, an indigenous version of the FH-77B Bofors, have jeopardised an army order for 114 guns. The DRDO-designed Advanced Towed Array Gun System (ATAGS), built indigenously by Tata Defense and Bharat Forge, is yet to clear army trials. The army believes it could take these guns at least until 2025 to pass its stringent trials.
End of my wet dream of ever seeing Desi guns being pumped out in large numbers
Will never hope for such miracles ever again.
Dhanush was tested for so many years. And so many changes were made due to design inputs of testing officers.
And all these tests did not show these design defects reflected on the Army testing process.
These so-called stringent trials are a joke and plans are frozen even when circumstances change.

There are design problems and production-related design problems.
And you don't find the latter unless you make them.
The Military wants a perfect solution without going through the pains of the mfg learning process.
They would fight with obsolete imported stuff than accept a 99% good product.

For example even the great 5.5" gun used to have barrel burst in Egypt when it was introduced.
BA did not scream for US 155mm guns but worked to find the solution and continued.
Yes, the very same 5.5" gun that was used in the 1965 War.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

ramana wrote:The K9 deployments around LAC and its performance must have convinced the IA to get more of these guns.
Should credit Lt Gen PR Shankar for suggesting the K9 deployments to counter the vaunted PLA combat brigades.
He pointed out the direct fire mode with the Indian sight system would be valuable.
People started saying cold weather etc not realizing K9 works fine in Finland.
Yes, high altitude requires a turbocharged engine.
So these versions will get the uprated engine.
Hope it clarifies.

PS: Folks keep it technical.
There was an report earlier in print for additional 40 for LAC . Looks like requirement has gone up to 200, it’s a great addition
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

Yagnasri wrote:
RNS is the most underestimated political leader and Minister. He did really well as Home Minister also.
I had my doubts abt RNS as well. We should all do a Kadi Ninda of our selfs for underestimating him.

The current IA chief has also visited the L&T factory a few times good signs for FICV and light Tank if it comes
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by rajsunder »

sum wrote:
Design defects on the Dhanush, an indigenous version of the FH-77B Bofors, have jeopardised an army order for 114 guns. The DRDO-designed Advanced Towed Array Gun System (ATAGS), built indigenously by Tata Defense and Bharat Forge, is yet to clear army trials. The army believes it could take these guns at least until 2025 to pass its stringent trials.
End of my wet dream of ever seeing Desi guns being pumped out in large numbers
Will never hope for such miracles ever again.
https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1485592631262720004
Also, there aren't any 'design defects' in the Dhanush 155 mm/ 45 caliber howitzer. I would like to see Unnithan or Aroor or whoever to get somebody on record to say that.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

300 Tracked SPH are required for IA. In the good'ole days when the Bhim prototype had been developed, the original plan was for 180 guns or 10 regiments of tracked SPH. Now with LAC heating up, increasing the number to 300, makes perfect sense. Alas it will come 20 years later, but der aaye durust aaye.

I hope the ATAGS, Dhanush and truck mounted guns are taken up in all earnest. The Kalyani Garud guns and the light weight 155mm 39 cal guns from kalyani also should be ordered.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by S_Madhukar »

What surprises me with the K9 order now is that the IA never considered SPH in Ladakh ? I mean our 2 borders with extreme climates are west and north, operating there should be a basic requirement! What are we going to say to enemy time out please we want to shift gear from desert to high altitude or swap equipment etc… apart from the shame that SoKo developed a good SPH for their terrain and we owners of the highest mountain ranges in the world have no clue how to design one, at least if IA requirements and trials are to go by. They should get someone from IT to do requirements then
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Tanaji »

S_Madhukar wrote:What surprises me...
^^ Sirjee, have you read through this thread in detail?
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

IA seems to have realized that just having mountain divisions, that are beefed up CRPF, is not enough along LAC when PLA has reorganized their troops and tactics.
Need firepower.

I had asked chola to add up the firepower of the various PLA combat brigades.
Sadly he got banned before he could complete the task.
Net assessment is PLA is bringing firepower and numbers to the LAC.
Hence the Ist corps was split and deployed along LAC among other things.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K9_Thunder

Image
K9 Vajra-T consists of 14 major Indian manufactured systems, 50 % of components by value, which include NUB ammunition capable FCS and its storage, communication system, and environment control and NBC protection system. Additional systems were installed such as GPS (Gunner's Primary Sight) for direct firing capability, and South African APU, which was proven for desert operation—Korean APU was under development phase during Indian trial. The vehicle's overall design was modified to be suitable for operating in the desert and high-temperature conditions, including the change of firing rate to 3 rounds in 30 seconds.[24][94][99][100][101]

The 100th vehicle was delivered to the Indian Army on 18 February 2021, completing the contract ahead of the schedule.[102]

In May 2021, it was reported that India's Defence Research and Development Organisation is working with Larsen & Toubro on a light tank using the K9 chassis with 105mm or 120mm gun system to counter China's Type 15 tank. The light tank variant was opted out as the estimated vehicle weight exceeded 30 t, limiting the places to operate.[103][104]

The Indian Army is planning to order an additional 40 K-9 Vajra-T from Larsen & Toubro as of 2021 after completion of high altitude trials at Ladakh under cold climatic conditions.[105] India is also looking to export the K9 Vajra-T variant to third countries in collaboration with South Korea and industry partners.[106] After the satisfactory performance at high altitude terrain, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) is getting ready to place repeat order of 200 K9 Vajra-T worth ₹9,600 crores.[107]
Basically, the 40 order was replaced with 200. None of the piecemeal nickel and diming.
And the light tank which is glorified AMX-15 is discarded.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

ramana wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K9_Thunder
And the light tank which is glorified AMX-15 is discarded.
So the K 9s are in place of the light tank requirement for the china border ?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

I think so and more versatile.
The fact Russia is miffed supports this view.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Seeing the Dhanish gun in R-Day parade gives its own message of Indian Army confidence in it.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Well I remember seeing the Arjun tank in the parade when I was still in college. 15+ years later we have no more than 2 regiments of it.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Looking forward to the day when tanks make it to the no-imports list. Will be a huge Burnol moment to many.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

ramana wrote:I think so and more versatile.
The fact Russia is miffed supports this view.
Interesting, as a one to one replacement (unlikely) it brings in 155mm 52 caliber artillery to counter the chinky 105mm T15.
In a direct firing mode..those tins would be target practice.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

kit wrote:
So the K 9s are in place of the light tank requirement for the china border ?
No, the light tank requirements cannot be met by SPH.

These are totally seperate requirements. If the Indian army is intent on this type of vehicle. Then the only option they will have is going to be the L&T light tank which in turn will be based on the FICV. The prototype of which is expected to be rolled out in 2023.

I am crossing my fingers that it will not be based on the Red Back.

No more imported solution will be shared with them.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by vonkabra »

Aren't we jumping the gun? The article only mentions files are beginning to move - that's a long way from an actual order being placed. Also this news has not being reported anywhere else (unless it's other sites quoting this same source). Possibly the government is saving the announcement for some major event like DefExpo, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

vonkabra wrote:Aren't we jumping the gun? The article only mentions files are beginning to move - that's a long way from an actual order being placed. Also this news has not being reported anywhere else (unless it's other sites quoting this same source). Possibly the government is saving the announcement for some major event like DefExpo, but I'm not holding my breath.
Yes govt wants to mk the announcement at defexpo slated in Gujarat but L&T already knows it needs to start getting ready and put in the orders and cut on lead time. Just to give L&T confidence, they went public with file moving news - u dont hear file moving as news on other deals. So there.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Article is behind a pay wall. Posting what is available. The Chandigarh Lobby will bring out their knives.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... uz27MxPTVg ---> The K9 Vajra is only part of the story. There’s a huge Atma Nirbhar Bharat mid course correction being pushed by the PMO with the defence ministry. My detailed India Today magazine story has the blueprint - (paywalled).

Aatmanirbhar Bharat: A call to indigenous arms
https://www.indiatoday.in/magazine/defe ... 2022-01-28
07 Feb 2022
The ministry of defence has announced a series of measures to energise the flagging drive to manufacture indigenous weapons. The PMO itself is supervising the initiative. Will it work?
"No more imports of defence equipment" — these six stinging words from a defence ministry directive to top defence officials in January underlined the Narendra Modi government’s growing impatience with its struggling initiative to indigenize defence hardware production. The directives from defence secretary Ajay Kumar outlined a jumpstart of its defence industrial base and a clampdown on imports.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

Not related to Indian artillery; posting because the news is about K9

Egypt inks $1.7 billion deal for K9 howitzers from South Korea
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

^^^
This article is a success story about South Korean defence exports.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by isubodh »

VinodTK wrote:Not related to Indian artillery; posting because the news is about K9

Egypt inks $1.7 billion deal for K9 howitzers from South Korea
This is where L&T can take up sub-contracting work for parts. This is quite a good opportunity to make use of the capacity. Getting Indian pvt sector the know-how should help them join the supply chains. If not then its same as PSU getting ToT.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

Further egypt is buying 200 K9 for 1.7 b usd, india for 1.3 b usd - thats 23% cheaper. And K9 on last count were 50% indigenous by value. I wonder if %age is going up in second batch (It should - sometimes same vendors can supply more parts with new higher qty order, vendors develop too) . I think our K9s would have been 30% cheaper if 300 order was placed at once with higher indigenisation ask.

This new order will embolden some downstream vendors to raise more loans and expand their capacities.

If IA can procure all swadesi and with some aplomb - they can probably procure things 25% cheaper. Thats a 33% capex increase right there. I cant see any IA wish lists that cant be made in india. IAF and IN might still have items like 5gen avionics and nuclear submarine that has nothing swadeshi.

Plus the supply chains used in tata-drdo whap, lnt K9 will have overlaps with fmbt or light tank. In a way these inductions have already brought down the cost of whatever wheeled stuff we are going to build. It goes beyond parts commonality, same cendor if it has orders to keep his balance sheet running will takeup manufacture of sometimes even smaller quantities of certain parts.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by pankaj »

Article - Aatmanirbhar Bharat: A call to indigenous arms

Available on link below - page 40

https://specials.intoday.in/pdf-issues/ ... -Today.pdf
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