Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
Atmavik
BRFite
Posts: 1987
Joined: 24 Aug 2016 04:43

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/158 ... m64gCph55w --->

Alright, let me share some unequivocally 'good' news with you:

1. The tender for import of 155 mm/52 caliber howitzers has been scrapped with the file being closed.
2. Internal Army modalities for the procurement of 150 indigenous ATAGS howitzer units have been fast-tracked.
Just 150 ??? I thought the need was for some 850 +
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18290
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

150 is the first batch. More will be ordered now that the import has been cancelled.
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

Atmavik wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/158 ... m64gCph55w --->

Alright, let me share some unequivocally 'good' news with you:
1. The tender for import of 155 mm/52 caliber howitzers has been scrapped with the file being closed.
2. Internal Army modalities for the procurement of 150 indigenous ATAGS howitzer units have been fast-tracked.
Just 150 ??? I thought the need was for some 850 +
Towed artillery requirement is for 1,580 units. Or was. The whole of it will come from in-house production. No imports. BTW, I say 'was' because the break-up between Self Propelled (Tracked), Towed, and Mounted Gun System (MGS) might get rejiggled given the operational scenario and available artillery options. Frankly, at this stage, we're spoiled for options!
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Aditya_V wrote:And M777s?
In some place, BAE was saying the production line has stopped and needs US Army permission to re-start as they are a co-owner of the design or some such thing.

I would hope Kalyani light howitzer is picked to augment the M-777 batteries.
They also make a steel version that costs 1/8 of a Titanium M-777.
Need to think of how to deploy more guns and not the expensive light gun and Chinook to airlift it along LAC.

Another thing is IA is standardizing on the 155mm shell which is traditionally a medium caliber.
The way to see it is the field artillery will have the Sharang and Dhanush 45 caliber guns.

The medium and heavy will have the ATAGS as it has a longer range.

We should not be hung up on the weight of the shell but on the range.
Then we have the Pinaka series to augment the long-range artillery.
Hopefully, the guided and electronic fuzes will be produced in quantity to make the artillery fire more effective.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Rohit have you seen the table of rounds for grades of destruction in British Artillery practice?

I will try to find it.
It's all a factor of the fuze reliability.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Holy smokes!!

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 027629.ece

Kalyani Group eyes world’s largest artillery manufacturing facility in India. By 2025, it can produce 1 gun per day :eek:

This is exactly the kind of thinking that helped the US win WW2.

Unleash the beast!
rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7830
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by rohitvats »

^^^I have saying this repeatedly on Twitter - India is sitting on a cusp of technology and manufacturing revolution in defense sector. Indian Army can shape up to match the Chinese Army in almost all departments (if not in quantity, at least in quality) through domestic production. These domestic products will vary from 100% indigenous products to those coming from JVs with foreign firms. But all can be done here. Its a matter of this government loosening the purse strings. Simple.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18290
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar wrote:Holy smokes!!

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/co ... 027629.ece

Kalyani Group eyes world’s largest artillery manufacturing facility in India. By 2025, it can produce 1 gun per day :eek:

This is exactly the kind of thinking that helped the US win WW2.

Unleash the beast!
Prem, nice to see you back! :)

And thanks for this news item. Absolutely fantastic news. Baba Kalyani is a force to reckon with. Truly amazing.
Vayutuvan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12066
Joined: 20 Jun 2011 04:36

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vayutuvan »

rohitvats wrote:Indian Army can shape up to match the Chinese Army in almost all departments (if not in quantity, at least in quality) through domestic production.
Even in quantity. India has a large/well educated production planning workforce. We do not have properly educated floor technicians. Can retired Army jawans be roped into new factories?
bala
BRFite
Posts: 1996
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

Baba Kalyani per link posted by Prem:

The group currently produces about six guns in 30 days at present. “The capital investment has already been done. Now we need to increase the volumes,” said Kalyani at the DefExpo 2022 at Gandhinagar on Tuesday.

Bharat Forge Limited announced a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with General Atomics, US, to collaborate on a Lithium-Ion Battery System for naval platforms/submarines to address the requirements of the Indian Navy. Under the terms of the MOU, Bharat Forge and General Atomics’ Electromagnetic Systems Group (GA-EMS) will partner with each other in the area of permanent magnet motors. GA is a market leader for in-service Li-Ion Battery solutions for naval platforms/submarines and and our partnership with General Atomics is a firm step in the direction to develop Make in India solutions for Indian Navy and setting up a strong defence technology and manufacturing vertical within India,” Kalyani said. Scott Forney, president of GA-EMS, said, “Our Li-Ion battery system has been developed after 10 years of rigorous R&D. Instead of the usual ‘fault prevention’, our design philosophy is based on assuming a fault and requiring fault containment’, which has made our system extremely safe and reliable.”
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Vayutuvan wrote:
rohitvats wrote:Indian Army can shape up to match the Chinese Army in almost all departments (if not in quantity, at least in quality) through domestic production.
Even in quantity. India has a large/well educated production planning workforce. We do not have properly educated floor technicians. Can retired Army jawans be roped into new factories?
Its not about quantity of workers it is about the size of the armed forces.

We can declare martial law and mandate that we have one ARty piece manufactured per day but can the army absorb that unless we think it is a good idea that we only have arty in the armed forces!
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Rakesh wrote: Prem, nice to see you back! :)

And thanks for this news item. Absolutely fantastic news. Baba Kalyani is a force to reckon with. Truly amazing.
Thanks. Had a self-imposed internet vanavas, just to see if I can do it. Now, back due to BRF's Gargantua-like gravity pull, which slows time. What feels like 1 hour here is 5 days in the outside world
Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4699
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Dhanush 155MM 52 Cal Howitzer unveiled for the first time at Defense Expo 2022.
Overall weight - less then 14 tons and comes with barrel retraction feature to facilitate easier towed-transportation in mountain areas.
KSingh
BRFite
Posts: 504
Joined: 16 Jun 2020 17:52

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by KSingh »

Atmavik wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/158 ... m64gCph55w --->

Alright, let me share some unequivocally 'good' news with you:

1. The tender for import of 155 mm/52 caliber howitzers has been scrapped with the file being closed.
2. Internal Army modalities for the procurement of 150 indigenous ATAGS howitzer units have been fast-tracked.
Just 150 ??? I thought the need was for some 850 +
3000+ as outlined in the IA’s artillery plans
KSingh
BRFite
Posts: 504
Joined: 16 Jun 2020 17:52

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by KSingh »

rohitvats wrote:^^^I have saying this repeatedly on Twitter - India is sitting on a cusp of technology and manufacturing revolution in defense sector. Indian Army can shape up to match the Chinese Army in almost all departments (if not in quantity, at least in quality) through domestic production. These domestic products will vary from 100% indigenous products to those coming from JVs with foreign firms. But all can be done here. Its a matter of this government loosening the purse strings. Simple.
It’s not just a question of purse strings though. How many times have we seen the services return unspent to the exchequer at the end of a FY? The endless train and paper shuffling procurement process needs to end. This defence industry will never get built up without having significant demand at home

1 unit a day is absurd for an army that planned to induct 114 Dhanush-45 over 3-5 years? Even now they are only considering 150 ATAGS vs a requirement of 1500-3000 towed pieces


Listen to what private players will openly say and they will tell you the lack of orders and serious numbers is the limiting factor now, NOT R&D/production (that the armed forces have used as an excuse for years )
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Twitter abuzz with news: Kalyani bags an export order worth $155 Million to supply artillery guns to a non-conflict-zone country (wonder who)?

Quite amazing: a foreign customer trusts our product while IA will order 2 more rounds of "hot & high, cold & low, smile & bend-over" series of tests
Dilbu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8272
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 22:53
Location: Deep in the badlands of BRFATA

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Dilbu »

Prem Kumar wrote:Twitter abuzz with news: Kalyani bags an export order worth $155 Million to supply artillery guns to a non-conflict-zone country (wonder who)?
KSA
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

That's what I read in the Twitter chirps as well. Good diplomacy at work, combined with a world-class product and Modi's Atmanirbhar push. Phenomenal news all around!

At say $2 Million a pop, that's probably an order of 75 units. A 3 year fulfillment implies a production rate of 1 unit every 2 weeks. Easily do'able for Kalyani. They have plans to churn out 1 a day by 2025.
bala
BRFite
Posts: 1996
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

Awarded $155.50mn export order for 155mm artillery guns: Bharat Forge

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 114715.ece
November 09, 2022

Image
Pune-based Bharat Forge Limited announced on November 9 that it has won a $155.50mn export order for one of its 155mm artillery gun platform to be executed in three years.

Company officials said at the Expo that they have secured export orders for the Kalyani-M4 vehicles.
Larry Walker
BRFite
Posts: 488
Joined: 26 Nov 2019 17:33

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Larry Walker »

Dhanush/ATAG's/Pinaka's laying down a carpet of fire for hours on a particular area - then Arjun's/Bhism's moving in to clear out any dugouts and left-over armors - followed by mechanised infantry in Abhay's supported by Namica's and Tunguska and Pantisir equivalents providing protection from helis and UAV's - all the while a JStar keeping an eye on the battle field and Prachand's/Rudra's providing close air-support and IFG's providing direct and in-direct artillery support for clearing any leftover MMG/LMG nests.
What a dream !!
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18290
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... IZPaurdHGA ---> The @BharatForgeLtd export breakthrough is largely the triumph of one man - the CMD Baba Kalyani. He invested in plant and machinery over a decade ago with no orders in sight. But never gave up. @MGArun1 captures his journey.

Image
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/158 ... m64gCph55w --->

Alright, let me share some unequivocally 'good' news with you:

1. The tender for import of 155 mm/52 caliber howitzers has been scrapped with the file being closed.
2. Internal Army modalities for the procurement of 150 indigenous ATAGS howitzer units have been fast-tracked.
The IA is fast tracking it so hard that KSA order the guns from Kalyani.

All these fast-track news is bull shit.
Nothing moves in Delhi unless there is an invasion.
The reason is every nose picker babu can put an objection on the sidelines like SC judges observations and delay procurement.
years after they retire we find the wife's nephew is an arms agent for the tires of the imported gun.

Things won't change. Same rascals will still be in power and cant be removed.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Ramana sir that is unusual coming from you.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12198
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

It's only an acknowledgement of the reality of the Indian babucracy.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

People are losing patience because of the "in your face" corruption and step-motherly treatment of indigenous products. This is in spite of the Atmanirbharta diktat coming from the PM himself

Frankly, even the no-import list is starting to look like a joke with the items being so specific in nature (& sometimes already indigenized) that they can prepare a list of 100 such items for the next 100 years, while keeping the gravy train going. The MoD is pulling the wool over the RM/PM eyes

Some divisions in the Armed Forces have embraced local options well (like orders for indigenous drones). But the sword arms are filled with Chandigarh Lobby middlemen
YashG
BRFite
Posts: 939
Joined: 22 Apr 2017 00:10

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

so the country is armenia. but its a conflict zone. What am I missing here?
YashG
BRFite
Posts: 939
Joined: 22 Apr 2017 00:10

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

Prem Kumar wrote:The MoD is pulling the wool over the RM/PM eyes

Some divisions in the Armed Forces have embraced local options well (like orders for indigenous drones). But the sword arms are filled with Chandigarh Lobby middlemen
no one can fool modi, he is too good to be fooled by MoD. Right now his priorities are different.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12198
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

My dad retired as a senior Babu in 2016. He has been very clear that the so called civil services have to be brought in control. If the nation is to progress.

In 2014, he was clear that the civil services will completely screw Modi's agenda.

Modi's comment post 2019 victory about not letting the bureaucrats trip him over the next 5 years. The way they did from 2014. Made me understand my dad's fears.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12198
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

WRT, different priorities for Modi. PRC, is sitting on the borders. What can be more urgent than that.

Yet the MOD is moriboud despite having the best RM for the last nearly few years.
Kersi
BRFite
Posts: 467
Joined: 31 May 2017 12:25

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Me no expert. So i have some basic queries.

We have / will have several type of 155 mm guns like K9, ATAGs, MGS, Dhanush etc.
Will they be able to use the same shells and same charges ?
Will there be different type of shells like air-burst, illuminating, smoke ?
Any types of "armour piercing" or "concrete piercing" shell to destroy say concrete bunkers ?
Shell with base bleed units
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12198
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The will fire the same shells and use the same charges.

They will all be able to use ERFB-BB shells.

IIRC, 155 mm armour piercing shells and concrete piercing shells don't exist.

For all others types the high explosive shells should do the job.
Kersi
BRFite
Posts: 467
Joined: 31 May 2017 12:25

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Pratyush wrote:The will fire the same shells and use the same charges.

They will all be able to use ERFB-BB shells.

IIRC, 155 mm armour piercing shells and concrete piercing shells don't exist.

For all others types the high explosive shells should do the job.
Thanks
Till date I too have never heard of 155 mm "armour piercing shells and concrete piercing shells". Aren't they required for some specific applications like say bunker busting or anti-tank ?

Just thinking aloud
How would an arty battery deal with a group of modern tanks ?
mody
BRFite
Posts: 1364
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

What is needed urgently are IRNSS based precision guided shells like Excalibur. Also rocket assisted projectiles, till the new ramjet propelled tech takes shape.
Do we have only 1 manufacturing facility for the 155mm shells? The one setup at Nalanda in Bihar or are there any other facilities? if not, we should start involving the private sector companies like solar industries etc. to also start manufacturing 155mm arty shells, as well.
Haresh
BRFite
Posts: 1503
Joined: 30 Jun 2009 17:27

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Haresh »

Kersi wrote:
Pratyush wrote:The will fire the same shells and use the same charges.

They will all be able to use ERFB-BB shells.

IIRC, 155 mm armour piercing shells and concrete piercing shells don't exist.

For all others types the high explosive shells should do the job.
Thanks
Till date I too have never heard of 155 mm "armour piercing shells and concrete piercing shells". Aren't they required for some specific applications like say bunker busting or anti-tank ?

Just thinking aloud
How would an arty battery deal with a group of modern tanks ?
anti-armour 155mm shells have been developed and are being used in Ukraine.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambl ... ery-round/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors/Nexter_Bonus

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambl ... ery-round/
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12198
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Haresh,

I have been aware of the Smart and the SADRAM for some time. But the specific reason why I didn't address those rounds is because they are essentially Cargo projectiles and not unitary rounds.

I should have been more clear about what I had been posting.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59773
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Kersi wrote:Me no expert. So i have some basic queries.

We have / will have several type of 155 mm guns like K9, ATAGs, MGS, Dhanush etc.
1) Will they be able to use the same shells and same charges ?
2) Will there be different type of shells like air-burst, illuminating, smoke ?
3) Any types of "armour piercing" or "concrete piercing" shell to destroy say concrete bunkers ?
4) Shell with base bleed units
1) All use same shell. Earlier used M107 and now ERFB shells. These are made by OFB.
2) Air burst is fuze related. Illuminating and smoke are special rounds.
3) Accurate hit on concrete bunker with time delay is used to destroy bunkers. No special shell. For armor piercing no special shell. But cargo shells with shaped charges are there.
4) ERFB shell have a small rocket which lights and reduces base drag which increases the range.
Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4218
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

For the Kalyani export order, who will provide the shells? Does anyone in India make 155 mm shells other than the OFB (or) will the Kalyani gun work with any 155mm shells that have been imported/stocked by Armenia
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12198
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The gun will use any NATO compatible rounds available to it.

As such Armenia can procure from any supplier.

But it will be prudent for them to be able to source the rounds either domestically or from India.
ks_sachin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2906
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Especially the OFB manufactured rounds Pratyush Sir?
Post Reply