Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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John
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by John »

YashG wrote:Further egypt is buying 200 K9 for 1.7 b usd, india for 1.3 b usd - thats 23% cheaper. And K9 on last count were 50% indigenous by value. I wonder if %age is going up in second batch (It should - sometimes same vendors can supply more parts with new higher qty order, vendors develop too) . I think our K9s would have been 30% cheaper if 300 order was placed at once with higher indigenisation ask.
Egyptian deal also includes K10 which we are not procuring. I wouldn’t be surprised if per vehicle cost of K9 is about the same as our deal.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

John wrote:
YashG wrote:Further egypt is buying 200 K9 for 1.7 b usd, india for 1.3 b usd - thats 23% cheaper. And K9 on last count were 50% indigenous by value. I wonder if %age is going up in second batch (It should - sometimes same vendors can supply more parts with new higher qty order, vendors develop too) . I think our K9s would have been 30% cheaper if 300 order was placed at once with higher indigenisation ask.
Egyptian deal also includes K10 which we are not procuring. I wouldn’t be surprised if per vehicle cost of K9 is about the same as our deal.

Aussies are getting 30 K9 s for $ 788 million. which includes a factory near Melbourne

https://eurasiantimes.com/k-9-thunder-a ... howitzers/
YashG
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

John wrote:
YashG wrote:Further egypt is buying 200 K9 for 1.7 b usd, india for 1.3 b usd - thats 23% cheaper. And K9 on last count were 50% indigenous by value. I wonder if %age is going up in second batch (It should - sometimes same vendors can supply more parts with new higher qty order, vendors develop too) . I think our K9s would have been 30% cheaper if 300 order was placed at once with higher indigenisation ask.
Egyptian deal also includes K10 which we are not procuring. I wouldn’t be surprised if per vehicle cost of K9 is about the same as our deal.
One K10 can replenish one K9 in 5 minutes. So you can probably replenish a dozen of K9s in 1-2 hour with one K10. Assuming stockpile within K10 is enough for that) So that would mean you would buy a ratio of 1:5 or 1:10 K10s. Assuming 1:10 ratio, Egypt would need 20 K10, at 1:5 Would need 40 K10s. So at $400 Mn difference, that would peg K10 at either 10-20 mn USD. Either doesnt seem correct.

So seems our K9s are cheaper but not by the margin I guessed. OTH it could be that K10s procured by egypt are more than numbers i estimated. Then this estimation wont be correct.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The K10 carries 104 rounds for a reload. Such vehicles are usually acquired on a 1:1 basis.

However, South Korea had ordered 1136 K9 and 179 K10. Mostly because the fact that they have nearly 1000 AARV of the M109 in service. Which though not as capable as K10 is still sufficient for South Korean army.


https://www.hanwha-defense.co.kr/eng/pr ... tem-k10.do

The details are available in the manufacturers product page.

I think the this same vehicular concept could also be executed on a 6*6 high mobility chassis. That should reduce the procurement and sustainment cost as compared to K10.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

Pratyush wrote:The K10 carries 104 rounds for a reload. Such vehicles are usually acquired on a 1:1 basis.

However, South Korea had ordered 1136 K9 and 179 K10. Mostly because the fact that they have nearly 1000 AARV of the M109 in service. Which though not as capable as K10 is still sufficient for South Korean army.

https://www.hanwha-defense.co.kr/eng/pr ... tem-k10.do

The details are available in the manufacturers product page.

I think the this same vehicular concept could also be executed on a 6*6 high mobility chassis. That should reduce the procurement and sustainment cost as compared to K10.
As per Hanwha, each K10 supports two K9s.



So Egypt has probably bought <100 K10s, could be much lesser since manufacturer specs will always be on the higher side. So Egypt could have bought 60-100 K10s for either 1:3 or 1:2 support. That puts each K10 at US $4 - 6.5 million.

I assume the FCR, turret would be well over 50% of any SPH. So K10s should be half the cost of K9s. ~ US $3 million. So at 60-100 K10s, we're looking at US $200-300 million for K10s.

But given all the data, I'm convinced our K9s might only be a tad cheaper than Egypt's if at all.
Karan M
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

pankaj wrote:Article - Aatmanirbhar Bharat: A call to indigenous arms

Available on link below - page 40

https://specials.intoday.in/pdf-issues/ ... -Today.pdf
These journos and their source based stuff. Could he not have crosschecked the IA AD comment based on open source research?
Facts - the IA AD has received over 100 modern surveillance radars of various kinds, upgraded its L70 and Schilkas, is adding anti drone systems (which he himself had reported), received around 12 batteries of Akash, with another equal number planned, has a MRSAM purchase order which dwarfs the IAFs 9 Sq deal. In short, despite issues, there have been huge positive moves. And he states its status as doom and gloom.

The basic fact which he is sort of alluded to is that services used the EUA heavily to stock up on imported spares and munitions for existing imported kit. And the GOI now wants the money to go local. That's the crux.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by John »

YashG wrote:
So Egypt has probably bought <100 K10s, could be much lesser since manufacturer specs will always be on the higher side. So Egypt could have bought 60-100 K10s for either 1:3 or 1:2 support. That puts each K10 at US $4 - 6.5 million.

I assume the FCR, turret would be well over 50% of any SPH. So K10s should be half the cost of K9s. ~ US $3 million. So at 60-100 K10s, we're looking at US $200-300 million for K10s.

But given all the data, I'm convinced our K9s might only be a tad cheaper than Egypt's if at all.
We really don’t know the #s of K10 they are buying and also they are getting a brand new vehicle called K11 FIre direction control vehicle not sure if cost includes some of R&D involved. Interestingly it is also intended for Navy so guessing they plan to use these from their Mistral.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Megh Updates reports K9 range is 50km in Mountains.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Can someone identify this?

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... oEYmRSgWWA ---> Erstwhile OFB unit of Jabalpur, Ordnance Factory Khamaria (OFK) is all set to get a make over. As per the factory modernization plan, it will see an extensive infrastructure boost.

Image
Kakarat
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

I think HSLD
Rakesh
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Kakarat wrote:I think HSLD
Thank you Saar.

Kalyani released a new video on ATAGS.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/IaSouthern/status/1 ... U0pl5D1M9Q ---> GOC of Agnibaaz Division visited Army Research and Development Establishment, Pune and interacted with stakeholders on artillery related defence projects being undertaken as part of Atmanirbhar Defence.

Image

Image
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

India extends Air Defence Artillery bid deadline
https://monch.com/india-extends-air-def ... -deadline/
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

What's the price difference between the two?
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

IIRC, Bharat Forge was working on 2 iteration of the light weight 155 mm.

One was designed using titanium, the other using steel. I think looking at the muzzle of the guns we are seeing both of the guns.

Or alternatively the picture were taken at different times with muzzle device changed.

Am not on twitter anymore. Will be good to know exactly what we are looking at in the 2 pictures.
Tanaji
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Tanaji »

Doesnt it say so in the picture itself that the top one is titanium and the bottom one is steel? Unless you are referring to something else….
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Tanaji wrote:Doesnt it say so in the picture itself that the top one is titanium and the bottom one is steel? Unless you are referring to something else….
I did not read the caption only looked at the picture.


My bad. :(
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by csaurabh »

ramana wrote:What's the price difference between the two?
Probably quite a bit- per weight, titanium is 10 times the price of steel, though the difference may be less compared to high quality special steel. Metallurgical properties are also different - titanium is easier to forge, but a lot more difficult to weld (special equipment and training required).
Prem Kumar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

ULH would be priced similarly, no?

Kalyani will be initially be expensive but once mass-production scale kicks in, they will be price competitive
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

John wrote:
YashG wrote:Further egypt is buying 200 K9 for 1.7 b usd, india for 1.3 b usd - thats 23% cheaper. And K9 on last count were 50% indigenous by value. I wonder if %age is going up in second batch (It should - sometimes same vendors can supply more parts with new higher qty order, vendors develop too) . I think our K9s would have been 30% cheaper if 300 order was placed at once with higher indigenisation ask.
[/quote

Egyptian deal also includes K10 which we are not procuring. I wouldn’t be surprised if per vehicle cost of K9 is about the same as our deal.
https://www.economist.com/asia/2022/02/ ... -exporters

With the uae Sam deal they are on track.. but OT
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

kit wrote:
John wrote:
https://www.economist.com/asia/2022/02/ ... -exporters

With the uae Sam deal they are on track.. but OT
Admiral - Can you move this post to relevant topic.

But notable in the exported MSAM is the fact that Almaz Antey helped SoKo design it. I wonder, if we dont seek or we dont get such design consultancy from Russia or other countries for such development. While India's missile program is the only piece where we are truly self dependent - Litmus test would be our capability to export SAMs, ATGMs (Not just Brahmos).

I also wonder if we can export Barak (Even though I understand its a joint Indo-Israeli development, but do we have export rights?)
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DfIlite/status/1500 ... Ldhfd2eT7Q ---> Kalyani mountain artillery gun (MArG) with gross weight of 6.9 tons. Already test fired.

Image

Image

Image

Image
Kakarat
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

This video shows MARG (+all) gun firing towards the end

Prem Kumar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Very nice/slick video! Was posted in another thread too. The Army should pretty much order a few hundred of each type, if not more. We should never ever import artillery again - we are spoiled for choice with native guns!

In mountains, the ULH, MArG & the 105 mm Field gun will play havoc
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Prem Kumar wrote:Very nice/slick video! Was posted in another thread too. The Army should pretty much order a few hundred of each type, if not more. We should never ever import artillery again - we are spoiled for choice with native guns!

In mountains, the ULH, MArG & the 105 mm Field gun will play havoc
Indeed, I for the last few days since watching that video. I have been fantasising about building the 52 calibre 155 mm mounted gun system,

1) Either mounting the Bharat 52 gun on a 6*6 truck based chassis. This will be a cheap solution.

2) Developing a 6*6 or 8*8 or a tracked universal heavy weapon carriers in collaboration with the CVRDE. Take the mountain gun varient gun barrel. Converted to 52 calibre from the 39 calibre. Fit with autoloader for a high sustained raite of fire.

I'm thinking in terms of the USSR origine 122 mm SPH in concept. But upscaled to 155mm. This will be the world's lightest, fully functional 155 mm SPH.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2S1_Gvozdika

The universal weapon carriers can also be used as carriers for SPAAG, different Akash generations, etc.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Good news. Dhanush clears new trials.
2 guns fired 90 rounds each flawlessly.

https://twitter.com/sjaju1/status/15014 ... 9LGVA&s=19



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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by bharathp »

starch the lungi/dhoti time. been long
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

Atags orders when?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The final nail in the coffin of gun import lobby.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Thakur_B wrote:Atags orders when?
Are the Army demanded modifications completed and tested?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by sum »

Pratyush wrote:The final nail in the coffin of gun import lobby.
Would really really wait for the actual thing to happen before getting too excited ( common rule of thumb related to any desi induction with IA or IAF)
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:The final nail in the coffin of gun import lobby.
Sirji it is OFB. Their propensity to FU is legendary. They have little regard for the boys in OG.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I know, but the point about removing all options from the gun import lobby is too compelling for me. :P
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

ramana wrote:Good news. Dhanush clears new trials.
2 guns fired 90 rounds each flawlessly.

https://twitter.com/sjaju1/status/15014 ... 9LGVA&s=19
subtext is interesting + important. an IAS in defence dept. tweeting this with aplomb. Goodluck going to this guy with an gun import list. He knows and well enough what is available in country.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

YashG wrote:
ramana wrote:Good news. Dhanush clears new trials.
2 guns fired 90 rounds each flawlessly.

https://twitter.com/sjaju1/status/15014 ... 9LGVA&s=19
subtext is interesting + important. an IAS in defence dept. tweeting this with aplomb. Goodluck going to this guy with an gun import list. He knows and well enough what is available in country.
He is a Mechanical Engineer in IAS along with cost Accounting expertise. For once a round peg in a round hole.
Cynicism is nice but please learn to be optimistic.
These are the final trials after Dhanush had barrel bursts during trials.
Quite informative is the 45 rounds continuous fire in the second set of trials with charge 6.
This heats up the barrel and any issue will show up.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:
YashG wrote: subtext is interesting + important. an IAS in defence dept. tweeting this with aplomb. Goodluck going to this guy with an gun import list. He knows and well enough what is available in country.
He is a Mechanical Engineer in IAS along with cost Accounting expertise. For once a round peg in a round hole.
Cynicism is nice but please learn to be optimistic.
These are the final trials after Dhanush had barrel bursts during trials.
Quite informative is the 45 rounds continuous fire in the second set of trials with charge 6.
This heats up the barrel and any issue will show up.
Ramana sir when you say it with you knowledge of arty then I am at ease. Thanks for clarifying
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by vimal »

When are the summer trials starting?
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

vimal wrote:When are the summer trials starting?

If it is for Dhanush, it has cleared the 'second-line' firing trials which are like mfg line products.
All trials are over.
However, every gun goes through proofing trials before being accepted.
Sarang is already being produced.
This completes the development of the 45 caliber guns.

Now on to ATAGs which are 52 caliber guns.

I like the interview with Baba Kalyani who explains a lot of things DRDO cant tell.

I hope IA buys quite a few 155/39 steel guns to quickly raise the batteries due to the cost differential.
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