Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Picklu
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Picklu »

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:It looks slightly more complicated than adding an extra charge to get additional range.
Basically, the extra charge to get additional range caused the shell to wobble at the muzzle exit.
So the design fix was an enlarged diameter of the muzzle brake to avoid the muzzle strike.
Earlier fixes were hit or miss.
Now its all good.
Thanks you sirji.

One thing the army has to realise is that to reach for atmanirbhar they will have to handhold. Deep experience comes from repeated failures. Unfortunately, the challenges of product design and productionisation is not something that young officers seem to be taught as they move up the ladder. This should start initially at the Academy and then be reinforced at Staff College etc Atmanirbhar and its implications on India and its geopolitical universe should be mandatory at NDC.

Again may be it is already in which case I shall withdraw by opinion.
Hand holding does not mean only financial support. It has to be supported by life and limbs of a few olive greens during peace time. That's the sad truth.

Most of the arms are designed with extremely thin margin of safety and the development testing phase has to be dangerous by design to ensure optimal duration of design phase.

Check the number of test pilot deaths in for F22 or Grippen and they have decades of designing, manufacturing and operating cutting edge aircrafts.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

You need muzzle brake to reduce recoil forces.
The initial muzzle brake diameter works for lesser charges and barrel length.
With longer barrels and higher charges the shell wobble increases and with more energy.
So a strike produces more severe force at contact.
This is the complex interaction of charge, barrel length, and operation.
with the longer range fuzes become important. Course correction and proximity types.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Ramana garu what is EMI test?
arvin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by arvin »

Electromagnetic Interference test.
Verify emissions from electric drive doesnt effect nearby equipment.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Arvin explained.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »



Munitions India limited has set a timeline of 30 weeks prototyping the first 155 mm smart shell.
Rakesh
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:Ramana garu what is EMI test?
Easy Monthly Installment.

Sorry Sirjee, but I could not resist :mrgreen:

But arvin saab is correct.
Kakarat
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

https://twitter.com/FGKKANPUROFB/status ... qGi2TLda3Q
FGK succesfully proof fired 155x52 cal ordnance today at CPE Itarsi, proving its capabilities to manufacture 52 calibre artillery fire power.
Image
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The carriage looks like one of the American 155 mm gun carriage from WW2 days.

Why not use a purpose built carriage from day one.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

https://twitter.com/Tej_Intel/status/15 ... wNgLQr0NFg
Big News
The initial rough estimate for the recent Indian Army RFI for 105 mm/37 caliber Mounted Gun System (MGS) is 50 Units. The MGS should have a minimum of 50% Indigenous Content.
https://twitter.com/HellHoundIN/status/ ... HXyKQllO-A
#NorthTechSymposium2022
Bharat Forge equipment displayed, from left:
TC-20 155mm/39 gun system
@Tej_Intel

Garuda-105
Garuda-105 V2 (both are 105mm/37)
M4
Image

It seems Kalyani is offering both the versions of its 105mm MGS to the Army
1 TATA LPTA 716 4×4 based gross wt ~7.5 ton
2 Kalyani LSV based gross wt ~5.5 ton
Rakesh
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... vXBn6uuVDg ---> Munition India Limited has released an EoI for Development of 155mm Smart Ammunition for all in-service Artillery Guns Systems i.e. 52/45/39 calibre under MAKE-1 category.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... vXBn6uuVDg ---> The ammunition should be capable of being guided to the target by changing its designated course from its ballistic trajectory either by continuous guidance through GPS/GLONASS/IRNSS with INS or by designation of the target from a ground based Observation Post Officer/Air Observation Post Officer from a helicopter/remotely controlled Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV). The ammunition should be provided with fins and canards that facilitate necessary corrections to ballistic flight path and allow it to move on a non-ballistic trajectory to reach the target. In case, when target is designated, the designator, should be capable of being operated from a static or a mobile platform, from ground or from aerial platform.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... vXBn6uuVDg ---> The ammunition. should be passive in nature and should only receive signals. It should not radiate Electro-Magnetic Waves and should therefore, be resistant to jamming.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Whenever the desi-Excalibur equivalent is made, it will be a big day for Indian artillery. If the cost is lower by at least 50% (more like 25-30%) as compared to the excalibur, then it would make a big difference.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The first prototype is scheduled for completion in the next 30 weeks. So the timeline is quite aggressive.

Let's see how many decades of trials it will have to undergo?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ashishvikas »

Additional K9 Vajra order discussion brings another ‘aatmanirbharta’ push for India’s defence
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/addi ... e-91733413
23 May 2022
The K9 155mm howitzers, manufactured by Larsen and Toubro has already been bought by the Army. But after the first 100 guns, the purchase of an additional 100 will be discussed at the next high-level Defence Procurement Board meeting chaired by the defence secretary, Ajay Kumar, and including the three vice-chiefs of the armed forces and a senior representative of the Defence Research and Development Organisation.
Other than that, several deals, all indigenous, are on the agenda. They include 6,400 guided extended range rockets of the Pinaka rocket launchers and successor air defence guns for the Army.

The rocket launchers project worth Rs 6000 crores will be divided between Explosive Economics Ltd and the government-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB). Whoever is L1 or cheaper, after conforming to accepted standards, will get 60 per cent of the deal and the firm that is L2 will get 40 percent of the deal. Explosive Economics, a Nagpur based firm, has already supplied hand grenades to the Army.
The project for the successor Air Defence Guns for the Army initially was about buying some and making the rest. Now, 220 guns will be made in India. About 140,000 rounds of ammunition are also being procured.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Good developments.
One thing about rockets.
Early on Soviets developed unguided rockets as they were cheaper and easier to make than tube artillery, especially after Operation Barbarossa.
The lack of precision was not a problem as they were used as area weapons against massed troop concentration areas.
Even Germans adopted them as NebelWerfer.

US and GB concentrated on aircraft rockets.
US started MLRS and ATACMS in response to the Soviet rocket artillery.
Especially after the Angola war where the 122mm rockets outranged the South African artillery batteries.

The introduction of cheap INS and GPS navigation has transformed rockets from area weapons to point weapons with extra range.
So IA should concentrate on inducting more Extended range Pinakas and Guided Pinakas.
Think of them as artillery and not just area weapons.
And they are Made in India.

In fact, the Guided Pinaka is similar in warhead and range to the heavy artillery in the IA corps namely the 7.2 inch gun.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Haridas »

ramana wrote: ...... The introduction of cheap INS and GPS navigation has transformed rockets from area weapons to point weapons with extra range.
So IA should concentrate on inducting more Extended range Pinakas and Guided Pinakas.
Think of them as artillery and not just area weapons.
And they are Made in India......
And the ultimate step of
1. Hitting moving target designated by Laser illuminated by UAV or person.
2. Smart self contained (i.e. no laser illumination needed) artillery that can classify, identify, prioritize and engage moving target. All in 3 to 6 seconds (when its close enough for camera resolution to do the job).
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

Also need to factor in guided rockets for rudra/LCH
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

A guided rocket is great force multiplier - particularly at very extended range (say around 100 km-150km). Similarly guided artillery rounds (Excalibur like) will be another force multiplier - you see them regularly in Rus-UK war where Russian art is almost working like sniper artillery round, knocking out static enemy positions at more than 25 KM away with pinpoint accuracy (in many videos, it has been able to hit 2 feet wide trench exactly where a man is hiding in it).
The unsaid is - I hope we are ramping on sensors (UAV, SATs, Special forces with designators) and reducing sensor to shooter time (i.e. info is captured, processed (friend/foe/civilian/false target), and shoot order given, within few minutes of sighting the enemy, and for moving enemy, within few seconds of confirmation). It takes more than UAV, a whole system of processing the data, assigning it to the right team (like nearest to the target, with the right weapon) to shoot etc.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

What will be a real force multiplier are the very long range MLRS. The max range we can presently target is just110 Kms with the aging Smerch. What the pakistanis have is MLRS with 150 Kms plus range and the chinese have 250 Kms plus range systems. This plus the absence of MGS makes our artillery look ill-equipped.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Ordnance PSU idle as negligible orders for artillery shells in four years
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 715181.cms
23 May 2022
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

in reference to guided rockets and Artillery shells.

long video on the lessons learnt from Ukraine war. The general says that the old adage of "fire and maneuver" is taking a backseat to "surveillance and precision"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5JOXXD3hBw

WAR HAS CHANGED FOR EVER | INDIAN ARMY MUST ALSO CHANGE | Ep. 62 | Major Gaurav Arya
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Indian artillery options proved are:
155mm 45 calibers:
Dhanush and Sarang modified 130mm chassis
155mm 52 calibers:
ATAGS -Tata and Bharat Forge.

In the pipeline are the MGS and 105mm truck-mounted guns.

In light of lessons from the Ukraine war in order to achieve precision need more CCF fuzes.
This becomes a priority along with setting up mfg lines for ATAGS.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... FYbl9Bg2xw ---> ARDE has received 2 bids for the 'Development of 155mm HE Bourrelet Projectile'. The 2 bidders are:

1. Ordnance Factory Ambajhari
2. Reliance Ammunition Limited
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

Evaluating the arsenal: The army is severely short of artillery
Good read
By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 3rd June 22
:
:
:
A higher calibre means a longer barrel. The Bofors gun’s 155 mm/ 39-calibre barrel is 39 x 155 mm long, which amounts to 6.05 metres. This gun is outranged by the M777 ultralight howitzer (ULH), whose 155 mm/ 45-calibre barrel is 45 x 155 mm long, or 6.96 metres. BAE Systems is developing a 58-calibre barrel to increase the range of its M777 155 mm ULH. However, these guns are out-ranged by most contemporary guns, whose 155 mm/ 52-calibre barrel is 52 x 155 mm long, or 8.06 metres.
:
:
:
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

I dont know the intention of your post classifying as good read

The Author has in the past proven to have an agenda, eg. In 2021 he claimed that Indian Army suffered casualties in clashes with China which Indian Army denied, a fake report.

A basic fact M777 is 155mm×39 caliber gun, in fact made of Titanium is ultra light but expensive and bit delicate.

So the basic premise posted is wrong.

Indian Army is short of Artillery and thier is a big dual going on between the Import lobby ecosystem and those who want more Dhanush, MGS and Atags. The said Author clearly bats for import lobby and 8n the.past supported Athos. The import lobby wants to sabotage indigenous solutions at any cost.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Also, the 58 caliber upgrade is not for the M777 ultra light weight guns, but the regular heavy weight guns. That development is still in the works and will take a few years to come online. Till then the ATAGS rules the range charts.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

mody wrote:Also, the 58 caliber upgrade is not for the M777 ultra light weight guns, but the regular heavy weight guns. That development is still in the works and will take a few years to come online. Till then the ATAGS rules the range charts.
The M777 has demonstrated both 52 & 58 calibre barrel.

And a reading of this linked article from 2018 suggest that the ERCA canons can be mounted on the m777 mount.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... rrel-long/

https://www.deagel.com/Artillery%20Systems/M777/a000511
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

Take whatever 'Give siachin to TSP shooklaw' says with malintent. If you are impressed with his knowledge, don't be, the article is lifted from wiki, duly Indianized, like what undeserving Karan Johar does, steals a Hollywood movie and makes a horrible bollywood b grade copy of it.

He himself says that we have 5400 artillery. Wiki says we have double the amount (it is doubling numbers for all nations, perhaps accounting for reserves). I am using half the factor - Chinese have 8000, India -5400, Paki 2700. In that context, our numbers are not bad.

What is bad is, it is not modern enough (some elements are, but most are post ww2 era, thanks to Shooklaw benefactors' dad Shri Rajiv Boforandhi). While of late DRDO and private sector have caught up in artillery, it is derailed by import lobby both within and without the army. It's most shining example is you know who. The artillery round production standards are also horrible. Private players are coming, but the OFB/new corp factory should be modernized for better quality. The unsaid is then, you import rounds for 2000-3000 dollars per round.

He is also factually incorrect - We have Excalibur, and making desi copy of it (in 30 weeks). He has conveniently skipped mortars, where we are very good (thanks to mainly Israeli tech).

To summarize - It would be criminal to import on any artillery segment. We are there. Can the product be further improved, oh hell yes, but that should go through this cycle - induct first batch --> further field test/use normal --> provide feedback --> Further improve the product --> induct new batches. Repeat this cycle as much as needed.

Our Gun holding and tech is adequate for TSP (we can and should improve on that). It is good as far as China goes in Tibet (remember we have 145 new M777). We are also inducting MGS - hopefully Garuda. Chinese though are improving very fast and we have no choice to induct better guns (but all of that is available in house).

The biggest lesson from UKR was is UAV support, and thankfully IA is fully aware. They can still play the game of only import, but it is at least not happening in the present.

Btw M777 has one big flaw, it cannot get into the sustained rapid-fire like other guns of same caliber. It is good to be placed in hard-to-reach places (as it can be flown with hepter), where other guns cannot reach, and use them at slow rate of fire but at decent distance and accuracy. In planes, I will take Dhanush or ATGAGS, Bofors or even d-30 over it any time.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/a-long-range ... heinmetall

The Germans are building a prototype of a 60 calibre 155 howitzer.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

VinodTK wrote:Evaluating the arsenal: The army is severely short of artillery
Good read
By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 3rd June 22
:
:
:
A higher calibre means a longer barrel. The Bofors gun’s 155 mm/ 39-calibre barrel is 39 x 155 mm long, which amounts to 6.05 metres. This gun is outranged by the M777 ultralight howitzer (ULH), whose 155 mm/ 45-calibre barrel is 45 x 155 mm long, or 6.96 metres. BAE Systems is developing a 58-calibre barrel to increase the range of its M777 155 mm ULH. However, these guns are out-ranged by most contemporary guns, whose 155 mm/ 52-calibre barrel is 52 x 155 mm long, or 8.06 metres.
:
:
:
After the first sentence eyes glazed.
It's longer calibre not higher.
M777 is standard 39 calibres.
It's lightweight only.
The design was for arty to be airlifted by Osprey tilt rotor.
The newer guns are still on drawing board.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... n-ukraine/

Arty is back at centre stage of military procurement thanks to the war in Ukraine.

Let's hope that the Indian army gets the message and starts ordering the indigenously devloped howitzers.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

fanne wrote:T

Btw M777 has one big flaw, it cannot get into the sustained rapid-fire like other guns of same caliber.
why do you say so?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

No reason other than wisdom on internet. No inside info. But many respectable/reasonable news/tweets have referred that over say last 6 months. I could be 100% wrong.

Having said that - titanium is tough to work with - says Bharat forge ceo and Ukraine field report. Meaning it cannot be maintained easily in battlefield. It is claimed that titanium is brittle.

It looks like repeated firing from titanium tube is not good for its health. Steel though heavy can take that abuse.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

fanne wrote:No reason other than wisdom on internet. No inside info. But many respectable/reasonable news/tweets have referred that over say last 6 months. I could be 100% wrong.

Having said that - titanium is tough to work with - says Bharat forge ceo and Ukraine field report. Meaning it cannot be maintained easily in battlefield. It is claimed that titanium is brittle.

It looks like repeated firing from titanium tube is not good for its health. Steel though heavy can take that abuse.
not goot for healt translate into shorter life= shorter time between barrel or parts change= costlier, nothing to do with fire rate. Fire Rate is dependent on crew training and availability for example 155mm shell weigh 60kg fuses and exotic guidance extra, two man shell carry crew will start huffing puffing by 2nd shell reload IA uses 8 man crew to carry shells(benefits of 1.5 billion Indians :D ) in 2 teams of 4 man each so they can sustain fire at 10 t0 12 rounds per minute(60 seconds)
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

I have some time at hand will dig deeper on Google. I suspect repeated heating and cooling at high rate is not good for ti based barrel. But will see what is out there
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Guy's the US has been using the titanium M777 for nearly 20 years in combat. They would have had written thousands of page's of documents over any issues faced by them in combat if titanium was an issue with the guns.

They have not.

Similarly the Indian army has fired thousands of shots from the M777. The only reported issue was the barrel strike.

The choice of the Indian army has not yet been made. WRT, the titanium or steel. So why speculate.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

The point is more subtle. The titanium barrel is great, light weight, tough, and when fired within limits (rate of fire) -fool proof. Hence no need for paper.
If you exceed that rate of fire, problem start surfacing. On regular steel barrel (heavier etc) one can have a higher rate of fire compared titanium one. When any army is trying to do a rate of fire on m777 what you can do on bofors, it is giving issues. If you remain within m777 parameters no issues.
For us Bharat forge has both types of gun. Army has to choose which one it needs. In either case we need not import m777 beyond 145.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I still don't understand. The argument about the gun. Most guns have a burst rate of fire and sustained rate of fire. This issue is due to the heating of the barrel due to the temperature generated by the ignition of the propellent and the friction caused by the movement of the shell through the barrel.

Most western howitzers have a sustained ROF approximately 1 to 2 rounds per minute.

Pzh2000 and FH77 are exceptions to the above ROF.

Given the thermal tollerance of titanium the gun should be amenable to much higher ROF. Provided shells could be fed to the gun quickly enough.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

fanne wrote:The point is more subtle. The titanium barrel is great, light weight, tough, and when fired within limits (rate of fire) -fool proof. Hence no need for paper.
If you exceed that rate of fire, problem start surfacing. On regular steel barrel (heavier etc) one can have a higher rate of fire compared titanium one. When any army is trying to do a rate of fire on m777 what you can do on bofors, it is giving issues. If you remain within m777 parameters no issues.
For us Bharat forge has both types of gun. Army has to choose which one it needs. In either case we need not import m777 beyond 145.
fanne garu fire rate is not dependent on barrel type length of sustained fire time span is, i have no idea about Titanium barrels but steel barrel guns will distort bend due to heat by 25th shell @ 3 rounds per minute fire rate. modern guns like ATAGS has barrel shape sensor barrel temp sensor hell it has mid barrel shell velocity sensor so crew will be alreted to wait and allow barrel to cool down by kampooter, but not all guns are ATAGS in particular M777 have no fancy sensors crew uses user manual usually yellow in c9lor, like 4 shots with x charges inspect breech and clean breech of residual debri, 12 shots in 10 minutes time out for 10 minutes, it is all in manual
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

ashishvikas wrote:Additional K9 Vajra order discussion brings another ‘aatmanirbharta’ push for India’s defence
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/addi ... e-91733413
23 May 2022
The project for the successor Air Defence Guns for the Army initially was about buying some and making the rest. Now, 220 guns will be made in India. About 140,000 rounds of ammunition are also being procured.
140,000 rounds ...hmmm, so 3 days supply. (Russia is firing 50K rounds a day) - Why cant we procure 1400K rounds, say 30 Days supply atleast.
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