Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Vips
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Not having MGS and very long range rocket system will bite us in our behinds big time.

Forget China, even Pakistan has more 155 MM guns then us. Artillery is our weak point.
sanjayc
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by sanjayc »

^^ How to stop unending trials by Generals, and then ordering a dozen guns? Do they realize how they are deliberately keeping India weak, and soldiers on the ground will pay the price with their life. There will be national humiliation in the event of defeat, like 1962 when that woolly-headed philosopher Nehru too kept India deliberately weak. Are generals emulating him as their role model?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Will they bite the bullet and order ATAGS. Noooooo.

But will make a case of emergency purchase of ATHOS. Yesssss.

They will rather loose the war.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by A Deshmukh »

Prem Kumar wrote:https://swarajyamag.com/defence/china-m ... uns-report

China deploys 100 of its PCL-181, 155mm howitzers in response to our deployment of K9 Vajras & M777

PCL-181 weighs 25 tonnes & can fire upto 40 Km (wiki). China has already inducted them.

ATAGS weighs 18 tonnes (a whopping 7 tonnes less!) and shoots upto 45 Km. Has traversed 500 Kms in Ladakh and the winding Himalayan roads. And what does our DG Artillery do - send it back to the drawing board!

I don't want to type the words that come into my head right now :evil:
this is a best thing to happen.
Indian army procurement leadership has been traditionally reactive.
this will lit the fire under their asses and get the ATAGS procurement going.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SinghS »

Why can't the journalist ask, China is deploying 25 ton 155mm howitzer on border and why do you want to further reduce weight of 18 ton well tested and proven howitzer?

What could Chawla reply...Tibet is plains and we have rugged mountains??
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

If weight is the deciding criteria for induction of any 155 mm system. Then the m 777 should have been inducted by the 1000s.

Because the axle load limit is under 5 tons. It can be towed using stallion 4*4 tractor.

Because the cold hard fact is that wherever the FH77 can be towed. The ATAGS can be towed as well. With the added benefit of the axle load limit of ATAGS being less than half of the FH77.

So weight being an issue doesn't pass the smell test.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Nothing about the ATAGS "getting the Arjun treatment" passes the smell test. If they can induct M777 with barrel burst issues, they can do the same with ATAGS. Both seem to be an OFB quality problem.

Orders should've been placed already.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

CPWD (Jai Ho PSU mentality) is more then one year behind schedule in constructing the manufacturing facility for Project Mango (APFSDS Shells). Because of the delay, Indian Army is not able to plan the schedule for inviting Russian experts to operationalize and commission the facility.

Before someone blames Covid, check the speed achieved by various firms involved in constructing various infra and other construction related projects.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

A Deshmukh wrote:


this is a best thing to happen.
Indian army procurement leadership has been traditionally reactive.
this will lit the fire under their asses and get the ATAGS procurement going.
I am not sure.. forces will ask for x amount of Athos /Nexter, govt will say no money. An order of x/10 will be placed for these expensive pieces from emergency funds.. r&d will continue with atags, bf/kalyani will be announcing new products without orders…

Sorry to be pessimistic but this Atags going the Arjun way has killed my morale
Vivek K
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

This is how India works Atmavik. We need to fight it however we can. Keep raising your voice - do not be intimidated if that causes personal attacks. Get on as many forums as you can. The Indian Army continues to make decisions that harm national security (territorial security + economic security + ability to make sovereign decisions) for future generations by selecting imported junk over good domestic weapons. It continues to waste vital resources by investing in foreign vendors denying the average Indian the chance of a good paying job. The GOI has paid lip service to "make in India" and does not grasp the effect of its failure to enforce the policy. The net result will be a cash starved, poor, low tech India.

So this is a worthy fight. Stay on the right side.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... 47138?s=20 ---> M777 Ultra Lightweight Field Howitzer near LAC.

Image
Larry Walker
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Larry Walker »

What boggles my mind is how can we be ok for using 39 caliber Bofors but not ok for longer ranged 45 and 52 calibers.
Also - if the army is happy deploying Bofors - they why dont they simply order more of these - as OFB and MGF have complete blueprint of the gun from SAAB.
Atleast we will have a proven 39 calibre to rain hell on PLA !!
This saga is too twisted for my simple mind to understand.
Vivek K
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Larry, it is actually very simple. But if I state the obvious, I will be sent to the netherworlds.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by DavidD »

SinghS wrote:Why can't the journalist ask, China is deploying 25 ton 155mm howitzer on border and why do you want to further reduce weight of 18 ton well tested and proven howitzer?

What could Chawla reply...Tibet is plains and we have rugged mountains??
You can just Google the answer. PCL181 is self-propelled artillery, ATAGS is towed artillery. One has a truck attached to it, one is just the gun.

The M777 is very light, but it's also very expensive and it uses a 39 caliber barrel so it's not really in the same class as say the ATAGS which uses a 52 caliber barrel.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Chinese troll alert
SinghS
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SinghS »

DavidD wrote: You can just Google the answer. PCL181 is self-propelled artillery, ATAGS is towed artillery. One has a truck attached to it, one is just the gun.

The M777 is very light, but it's also very expensive and it uses a 39 caliber barrel so it's not really in the same class as say the ATAGS which uses a 52 caliber barrel.
Long age when I had a Chinese colleague. She was a PHD from USofA and we really liked each other ;). The most absurd thing I ever heard from her beautiful mouth was: Japanese are actually Chinese people who were sent out in the search of an island by the Chinese emperor. Such is the power of Chinese government propaganda.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SinghS »

deleted
Last edited by SinghS on 21 Oct 2021 12:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

DavidD in telling the truth, not a troll. PC-181 is a 155 mm gun mounted on a 6 wheeled truck. It has been inducted in some formations already including a few facing India under Western Theater Command.
Even Pakis have purchased 236 units and inductions should start be end of next year.

Only Indian babooze and generals are hell bent on derailing all indigenous attempts of local products. It is not even subtle anymore. People can whine against it all they want, but it will not change a thing. Perhaps try writing to PMO and other avenues of feedback to govt.

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Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The MOD of India is ministry of disarmament and not ministry of defence.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

The difference in the type of artillery used by IA versus PLA is dependent on the area of deployment.

M777 is shorted ranged than 52 caliber cannon, however it can be deployed in places where a truck or SPH artillery cannot go.

You can deploy it closer to the LAC, while a SPH would be further back, using the longer to compensate for the lack of deployment areas. Ultimately both M777 & SPH would ending with the range on the adversary's ops area.

M777 can be deployed on reverse mountain peak, making is very hard, if not impossible, for counter battery to target it. The only way is air power or long range loitering drones. This is the reason why India has so many towed artillery.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

For the PLA, given the open space they would prefer a SPH. However the drawback is exactly that: open space, easy to target by counter battery. It covers this drawback by using the truck to scoot after firing.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Jamwal: agree with your points. I am aware that the PCL181 is truck mounted. But the arguments given by DavidD was almost word-for-word from Gobar Times regarding this deployment.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The only thing I admire about the PRC system is the single minded persuit domestic capacity. They look for imports only for capacity they are unable to develop at home during the timeframe they need.

While we in India have endless summer, winter, high altitude, plains dessert, trials for low double digit orders. Whereas, no limits for imports.

Pvt sector is kept at arms length.

If the MOD wanted, they could have placed orders for bharat 52 as a stop gap measure. Or asked Bharat forge to develop a 52 cal barrel for FH77 B. Produce that as a stop gap measure while "issues" with ATAGS get resolved.

But no. We can't be that innovative. We have to dot all the I and cross all the T.

Process has become punishment for us.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SinghS »

PC-181 is a magical dragon, it would come down from the Tibetan plateau and climb the steep slopes of the Himalayan range as it is self propelled. M777 goes where nothing goes and Chinese are creating an impression that PCL181 counters it sitting in Tibet and having 10 km longer range.

This is what China does best. It has to get in real fisticuff with a real army to prove themselves. Obfuscation by means of comparing anything with anything doesn't get you anywhere in a real war. For a long time, they are using it to win psychologically. Now the time is over for it.

If they are so confident and everyone and their relatives know that they want to redraw borders; why don't they decimate ill-prepared, babuism laden, corrupt under developed Indian army and get done with it now.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Why do people here take this stuff in such a cavalier manner? Of course, the optics that China presents and reality are not close. Yet, they have a much better artillery deployed in far greater numbers against us. I am not even touching other things like cruise missiles, ATGMs, mortars, tanks, armoured vehicles psychological warfare etc in which they are miles ahead from us. And almost completely self-reliant and wouldn't have to go around to Israel, Russia, US to get absolutely basic stuff like ammunition.

IA is boasting about lifting light howitzers using Chinooks. How many do they have? Grand total of 15 and even those are with Air Force. There are so many holes in this doctrine, that it's on the same level as Global Times propaganda.
We have multiple local designs of various calibers? How many have we inducted? They have not only inducted multiple types in hundreds and thousands, but also exported them to numerous countries. It is one thing taking apart their propaganda. But a lot of stuff which goes on here is something different
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SinghS »

Yes, I do agree that Chinese bring numbers and quick deployment to their forces. Non-induction by army and not having enough numbers across calibers is a different issue altogether. If we start comparing apples vs oranges and then dhoti-shiver, it creates chaos and confusion. It also obscures the current picture.

PCL181 serves a purpose for them. So does M777 for us. Different concepts and situations, so different solutions. Why do we need to match Chinese piece by piece? If they bring howitzer, we can naturalize them on the ground itself. Our counter may be different.

If we analyze counters, I believe that is a better utilization of our bandwidth. We can't change ways of DG artillery and MOD's. No one is going to listen to our rona-dhona. So why to burst a vein?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Let's face it. The PRC has a better procurement system and because of it has the ability to generate force in a sustainable manner.

The rot of the Indian bureaucracy will not be resolved by the rona dhona from us.

The question I have is what is it the Indian army knows, that we don't. That they are not running to the government asking for Bharat 52. Or the ATAGS even in its current form. Or telling the government to hand over the IP of FH77 to Pvt sector for emergency procurement.

All we are seeing is articles getting published every few months about emergency procurement of ATHOS.

But no more.

I wonder why that is so.

Is it because the Indian army decision making is so broken that it cannot see beyond imports of ATHOS?

Or they know they regardless of what the PLA can throw at us. The army can handle it?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Or Probably the buck is being transferred to the Army, I am there is some corruption but I am sure due to limited budgets there is a classification

1. Urgent and Critical
2. Urgent but not critical
3. Critical and not Urgent
4. Not Urgent and not critical

On BRF everything is in no. 1 category, beauracratic delays can make a lot of stuff move from no. 4 to no.1, but we do have a real problem with budgets and commission based imports. Its probably taking a bit longer in the real world than what we expect
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

Everytime we bring the budgets as defence to our decision making - let me say, if we wanted to take debts to make money available for domestic procurements - we can do that ( I will repeat my arguments of of our GDP-debt levels, that I posted elsewhere in forum to argue that). But some of the things like not inducting what Kalyani can make or what is available indigenously isnt limited by money.

Actually the babudom in India works both ways. Its like a flywheel - giant one. If you want to move fast - it will slow you down: so imports cant happen quickly but so cant indigenous procurements. But If you want to block something, it will not let you - So you cant block orders for indigenous maal for very long but also cant accelerate them.

Working with our bureaucracy is no easy thing. But its somewhat like a good insurance. E.g. US bureaucracy if not as worse, is kind of similar. In trump times, US bureaucracy kept trump away from doing the worst. But it also does funny things, like really funny.

So think about it - During peak election times in India, pre & post - something like 6-10 months, when there Def Min cant attend to decisions, work in MoD work doesnt stop - it chugs on -flywheel effect.

But Good Def Mins can definitely make a huge change of pace though. Good ministers are the greatest instruments of change. If a minister works hard, he can push the heavy weight of bureaucratic flywheel for good. RNS is a well balanced, gracious minister but he is not catalytic enough for bringing the changes like we want to see, like Parrikar was.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

jamwal wrote:
IA is boasting about lifting light howitzers using Chinooks. How many do they have? Grand total of 15 and even those are with Air Force.
Forget the Chinooks you know how many M777 have been procured and produced till date? A grand total of 45.

Yes we have just 45 ULH to face both the fronts.


Fact is our artillery is like an emperor whose nakedness is just barely covered by a fancy gown. We have very limited number of 155MM guns, and do not have MGS. In the end our brave soldiers will be fighting with 105MM LFG and World War II vintage M46 (130MM guns).

My shashtang dundvat naman and pranaam to Baba Kalyani for carrying on with his yeoman efforts in trying to build an indigenous eco system for heavy guns.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

Has domestic production of the M777 been delayed by Covid or budgets? I remember reading that the order was expected to be completed by early 2022?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... e/1528269/
Indian Army to get ‘Make in India’ M777 Howitzer guns soon! By the end of the fourth quarter of 2019, a new M777 Howitzer gun, assembled, integrated and tested at the Mahindra Defence facility will be ready for rollout, a BAE Systems executive tells Financial Express Online. The Indian Army has placed an order for 145 ultra-light weight Howitzer guns with BAE Systems under the ‘Make in India’ programme. Out of these 145 howitzer guns, 25 will come in a flyaway condition and the rest 120 will be assembled in India at the Mahindra Defene facility. Under the ‘Make in India’, the foreign original equipment manufacturer BAE Systems has tied up with India’s private sector firm Mahindra Defence for the completion of the $750 million deal.
Haven't heard anything relevant after this.

Regarding the rona dhona about procurement going on, please read Gen VK Singh's biography and a few others which mention the issue. The personal anecdotes I've heard are from much lower levels and pretty disheartening. But the rot is even worse on upper levels in civilian as well as armed forces side. There are money routes clearly defined for different ranks, which person will get how much and so on. Almost the same as it is with any corrupt municipality and police organisations. Going by how things are, it is hardly surprising at all.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Okay Gurus, the number of M777 have gone up. We now have 25 guns more to the care of both the fronts.

With big guns, Army keeps combat posture along LAC
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 569237.cms
28 Sept 2021
As for the M-777 howitzers, primarily meant for the China front around half of the 145 guns ordered for over Rs 5,000 crore have been delivered so far. With a strike range of 30-km, three three M-777 regiments have been deployed along the Line of Actual control with China.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem »

India adds punch to its firepower against China and a mix of defensive-offensive strategy
https://theprint.in/defence/india-adds- ... gy/753957/
21 Oct 2021
The Bofors, along with the M-777, have been deployed at heights of over 12,000 feet.

“These guns have enhanced our fire power capability,” said Brig Sanjeev Kumar.

While the M-777 have a normal range of 32 km, these guns — which can be lifted and deployed anywhere with the Chinook transport fleet of the IAF — have been able to achieve a range of over 40 kms at the LAC, because of rarified air.

The M-777s can reach where the Bofors can’t and hence is a huge capability jump in the mountains, said Army sources, adding that the tracked K-9 Vajra guns system — along with the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) — when inducted in future, will take fire power to the next level.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

The report confirms what we have been saying here. The M777 gets position in to hard to get places, providing good protection and availability of firepower to the frontline troops.

You could place individual gun on various mountain peaks, thus spreading them out, protected by the peaks.

By the looks of it, IA wants ULWH. I know BF ULWH was been tested at the artillery school. Wonder how far it has gone.

Even if ATAGS needs more changes, more ULWH should be inducted. It would be precious for a sector like tawang.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

That’s why the LW155 M777 exists so that it can can deployed, along with other components like counter-fire radars etc, using Chinooks or other similar helo lift capability. I think the IAs primary use case here will be the Mountain strike corps with larger, heavier 52 cal self propelled guns preferred in other theaters.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

nam wrote:The report confirms what we have been saying here. The M777 gets position in to hard to get places, providing good protection and availability of firepower to the frontline troops.

You could place individual gun on various mountain peaks, thus spreading them out, protected by the peaks.

By the looks of it, IA wants ULWH. I know BF ULWH was been tested at the artillery school. Wonder how far it has gone.

Even if ATAGS needs more changes, more ULWH should be inducted. It would be precious for a sector like tawang.
Let’s see if kalyani tc 20 or Garuda gets inducted. Apparently the CDS recommended the tc 20. We have 3 more years of the so called nationalist gov. Who know what comes next
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by DavidD »

Prem Kumar wrote:Jamwal: agree with your points. I am aware that the PCL181 is truck mounted. But the arguments given by DavidD was almost word-for-word from Gobar Times regarding this deployment.
I just stated some facts, I dont believe I made any arguments. What argument did I make?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

DavidD wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Jamwal: agree with your points. I am aware that the PCL181 is truck mounted. But the arguments given by DavidD was almost word-for-word from Gobar Times regarding this deployment.
I just stated some facts, I dont believe I made any arguments. What argument did I make?

But you did state facts....
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

nam wrote:M777 is shorted ranged than 52 caliber cannon, however it can be deployed in places where a truck or SPH artillery cannot go.
Range is also not the be all end all criteria that will impose costs on the Chinese. If they are getting 40 km using the LW155 in the mountains then the range should be a little more with Excalibur or PGK. While range is easy to compare, accuracy isn't. If you're able to get pin point accuracy at beyond 40 km from a gun that is light enough to be moved over mountainous terrain independent of roads then that's something that the Chinese will take very seriously. The larger guns have their place and will offer even greater range and rate of fire, but in the mountains you can impose a fairly significant cost by having accuracy and the ability to deploy or re-deploy using a helicopter. The real tragedy is that they should be producing 5+ times more 52 cal guns than the M-777 and inducting them at those rates for both these theaters and others.
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