Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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gpurewal
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by gpurewal »

manjgu wrote:@darshan ...100% true. plus many other perks of importing...phoren trips, phoren .... etc etc
These are some excellent artillery systems, and it's really sad that they are being glossed over because they are not "phoren". So I was thinking, why don't the companies that make these excellent product spin off shell companies in phoren lands, and submit tenders for their systems just renamed with to the local phoren lingo (ie. Kalyani Garuda V2 -> Jim Bobs Shoot n' Scoot Black Edition). Plus, they can hire the locals to add to the masquerade.

The plus side for the companies is that they can ask for a heavier mark up since it's "phoren" equipment. :D
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Don't worry too much.

Importing will be under cutting India itself via sabotaging AtmaNirbar Bharat.
Something dalals don't get.
MAD won't let it happen.
la.khan
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by la.khan »

Vips wrote:Would be interesting to see if Bharat Forge will make a Mounted system of its 52 caliber ULH I am sure they will be able to mount it on a light 6X6. Will be really Kick Ass for our Army.
That may be true but the problem is not what Bharat Forge can build; they have built quite a few artillery guns. I don't know if these guns are as good as imported ones; however, I am certain they serve our purpose. The problem is there are no orders for BF guns. I don't recollect reading in the media of MoD placing orders for BF artillery guns.

Why would the establishment place orders for Indian equipment if it means putting an end to their gravy train? :evil:
ramana wrote:Don't worry too much.

Importing will be under cutting India itself via sabotaging AtmaNirbar Bharat.
Something dalals don't get.
MAD won't let it happen.
I pray to God you are right.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Haridas »

Indranil wrote:I am waiting for even smaller rockets. Motors of which are the basis of A2S rockets and shoulder launched man-portable anti-air missiles.
Think about the magic number 73mm dia rocket motor 8)
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EiMTleEUwAA ... name=large ---> What looks like 155mm Sarangs, are taking more work load which was the Bofors 155mm used to do. God thing is the Sarangs (formally known as Metamorphosis under Soltam) is made in India and so is the TATRA 6x6 truck.

Image
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 77216?s=20 ---> Kalyani Bharat 52, 155mm/52 calibre artillery gun.
* Equipped with an APU for self-propulsion in support of shoot and scoot missions
* Automated ammo loading system

Image
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 18240?s=20 ---> Kalyani Mountain Artillery Gun (MArG).

(155mm/39cal), 2 variants
* Steel + ER (52cal)
* Titanium

Titanium version of ULH is extremely lightweight. Provides high field manoeuvrability, flexibility and accuracy.

Image
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Rakesh, Recoil requires mass or weight. One report I saw on M777 says it needs to be re-registered 9r sighted again after a few rounds. So need to be wary of titanium gun. Just mobility is not enough.
ArjunPandit
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

wow! the image above is very very slick. I hope that in few years they will be producing the naval equivalents of Mk45 so that we dont have to import those or use them at land
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

The boresight retention issue with the M-777 was initially picked up during the early operational evaluation and a re-designed technical solution was adapted to the design in the early 2000's. This was tested during a dedicated technical assessment conducted by the USMC and US Army and validated/retired before the weapon moved into rate production.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Per a Defense AV, DRDO has started a program to turn regular shells into guided shells by installing a trajectory correction fuse for making a cost effective indigenous option. The Aerodynamic guidance will be performed with small wings that will be controlled by the miniaturized avionics embedded into the fuze. A prototype has been developed and is undergoing evaluations to be followed by intensive testing to evaluate correction fuse and other electronic/mechanical components to check their survivability in intense EW atmosphere and in extreme cold and hot weather.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by shaun »

Precision Guidance Kit

Image

Fitment of PGK on existing ammunition improves accuracy (CEP- Circular Error Probability) of the Ammunition from 250 to 50 Mtrs. OFB has associated with DRDO from design stage to develop PGK for 155mm Ammunition.
‘PGK’ conceived, Global Positioning System (GPS)/Inertial Navigation System (INS)-guided, Extended-Range artillery projectile. The design effort involves a total redesign of ammunition including shell, fins and Canards and miniaturization of electronics. Gun fired shells experience shocks which are of the order of 15000g and are almost 100 times that of rockets and missiles.
Till now this technology is available only with the selected companies of the western nations.

Electronic Fuzes are required for 155 mm, 130 mm and 105 mm Guns (L118) of Indian Army, which is presently using mechanical fuzes. The electronic fuze will be fitted in the existing artillery shells without modification of the shell.
OFB is developing electronic fuze in association with DRDO, BEL and IIT Mumbai. The varieties of the fuzes being developed are:

Percussion Fuze (PD) - instantaneous burst upon hit

Time Fuze - burst after a programmed delay.

roximity Fuze – burst upon sensing the distance / nearness to the target.

Development work has been taken-up for the 03 type of in-service ammunitions.

courtesy : https://ofb.gov.in/uploads/unit/0/Make_ ... a_AMMN.pdf
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Desi Excalibur alternatives
https://alphadefense.in/desi-excalibur-alternatives/
12 Jan 2021
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

brar_w wrote:The boresight retention issue with the M-777 was initially picked up during the early operational evaluation and a re-designed technical solution was adapted to the design in the early 2000's. This was tested during a dedicated technical assessment conducted by the USMC and US Army and validated/retired before the weapon moved into rate production.
Correct. Thanks for bringing it up. Don't know if desi designs are aware of it.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Rakesh wrote:Desi Excalibur alternatives
https://alphadefense.in/desi-excalibur-alternatives/
12 Jan 2021

Good article shows the two tier approach.
- Course Correction Fuze (PGK) for reducing the dispersion.ARDE has completed the development and some company has the TOT already. Posted in the Forum last two months. Please try to see the picture posted in alphadefense article. Its quite illuminating.

- Guided shell on Excalibur pattern. This is new for it comes in two flavors: INS/GPS and Laser Guidance. The first is early realization and next needs more time.


In addition there is the electronic fuzes program from BEL with TOT (Pune) and the OFB program.

The Krasnopol was bad in many aspects. Guidance shell quality. Its major turnoff in buying such stuff from them.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 18240?s=20 ---> Kalyani Mountain Artillery Gun (MArG).
exam time folks
1. what is the greenish thingy midbarrel where the vented cover ends?
2. Blackish where the same cover in Q 1 starts?

Ramna saar, sight mal allignment is Meriki system peculiarity Sherman tank gun needed alingment after few km of bumpy ride or speed over 40kmph
another merikan gun peculiarity is you need to ram the shell in one smooth motion or else air will be trapped forcing a painful process to take out the shell and reload reason for 2 seperate breech gas escape system and tubing in all Meriki system.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Anoop »

niran wrote:exam time folks
1. what is the greenish thingy midbarrel where the vented cover ends?
2. Blackish where the same cover in Q 1 starts?
Is the green thing a sight correction and the black thing a housing for an accelerometer? I am wondering whether the low weight of the ULH requires additional positioning because of the effect of recoil on the light gun.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by hnair »

Niran-saar, brochure feeder and expo-crawler here. So guesses would be

1) compact muzzle reference radar(based on brochure labeling) for measuring deviations
2) looks like a collimator type device for correcting feedback from the radar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Direct fire sight for close in shots?
Philip
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Philip »

What's the verdict on the contest between ATAGS and the Elbit ( built in India) 155mm howitzer?
Vips
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Per a new report the ATAGS if ordered now will not be delivered before 2026 and the Dhanush delivery is also not happening. So new additions to our Artillery arsenal is only through import of M777 and assembly of K9 which will come to an end next month when L&T fulfills the initial contract of 100 units. I hope Sharang delivery picks up and we order the much needed MGS from Bharat Forge.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by morem »

How does it take 6 years to deliver a gun, surely the components are not as complex as an aircraft to produce?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

The so called reports from all from the usual suspects like Manu Pubby etc. Bharat forge has said they can deliver the guns at a much faster rate. However, the fly in the ointment could be something like the Arjun Mk1A nonsense of sending a few LSP guns for "user exploitation" trials, which will be the usual summer, winter, monsoon trials etc. etc. and holding up further production till then.
Don't know the reason for the Dhanush production stoppage. Not a single new gun was delivered in 2020 and this was mostly attributed to the lockdown and following govt. regulations of allowing only 10% staff initially etc. However, now some reports have come of recoil mechanism failure in November 2020, due to which further production has been held up.
This is really strange, as I think the recoil mechanism is in all probability going to be very similar to the one on the original bofors guns. We have been using them for over 3 decades and OFB has been servicing the same for a long time.
Something is definitely fishy in how the Israeli gun is relentlessly being pushed.

If at all a stopgap procurement is required, why not the Bharat Forge Bharat-52 gun?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

You don't have to go that far away from India in order to procure 155 MM guns. Both Bharat Forge and TATA can mate their respective gun carriage with a standard 52 cal barrel and 23 liter chamber relatively quickly. Delete that extensive battery pack and the weight of the gun is reduced significantly.

Hell I am quite sure that the OFB can take the Sarang barrel convert it to 52 cal and build a 155 MM howitzer around that.

This ATHOS is a scam.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by hemant_sai »

Someone on this thread claimed that one who is paying for guns has decided for ATAGS hence no chance of ATHOS.
If OFB is pushing for ATHOS and really case for it is getting stronger then OFB has great connections in MoD.

For me it is always surprising on how Army and IAF cannot be in driving seat and accountable when they are real customers and it is their life which is at stake due to all procurement mess.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Especially given how the Israeli 130mm upgrade was a flop show. And suddenly we want to depend on them for our bulk artillery?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

hnair wrote:Niran-saar, brochure feeder and expo-crawler here. So guesses would be

1) compact muzzle reference radar(based on brochure labeling) for measuring deviations
2) looks like a collimator type device for correcting feedback from the radar
:rotfl: googling is allowed as kids google their answers during their online exams and unit tests.
the green one mid barrels is a sight muzzle velocity measuring barrel heat barrel distortion all in one digital and icing wholly made in India. the black one is also sight plus initial velocity sensor plus gas release measuring sensor plus barrel position you see every shot shift the barrel back earlier they had traditional scale gun commander would look at it and decide to readjust barrel after redline, this one is digital will alert and shut off the gun if alarm is unheeded. once again made in India.

although with the range direct line of sight firing will be rarest of rare but why not DRDO can and they built it a digital one ti boot.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Vips wrote:Per a new report the ATAGS if ordered now will not be delivered before 2026 and the Dhanush delivery is also not happening. So new additions to our Artillery arsenal is only through import of M777 and assembly of K9 which will come to an end next month when L&T fulfills the initial contract of 100 units. I hope Sharang delivery picks up and we order the much needed MGS from Bharat Forge.

It makes sense for more K9s to equip the Independent Armoured Brigades also.

Please quote that late delivery report.

Thanks.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

Vips wrote:Per a new report the ATAGS if ordered now will not be delivered before 2026 and the Dhanush delivery is also not happening. So new additions to our Artillery arsenal is only through import of M777 and assembly of K9 which will come to an end next month when L&T fulfills the initial contract of 100 units. I hope Sharang delivery picks up and we order the much needed MGS from Bharat Forge.
what is the source sir, baba kalyani said in 2018 of a ready plan to deliver 250 guns an year.
http://forceindia.net/feature-report/in ... ght/[quote]
“We have been able to fire up to 48 kilometres in range, which is the highest ever range that a 155mm/52 calibre artillery gun has been able to achieve in normal ammunition. The consistency and accuracy of firing is extremely good. The gun is very stable and has fired more than a thousand rounds so far and has had no trouble,” said Kalyani at DefExpo-2018 in Chennai. “We a have plant ready which can produce roughly 250 guns a year,” he added.[/quote]
had we ordered we would have had at least 400 guns. Which is roughly equal to the no. of bofors we acquired over a period of 5 years. This desire to perfect systems before completion even under modi gvt perplexes me..
Last edited by ArjunPandit on 14 Jan 2021 18:55, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

hemant_sai wrote:Someone on this thread claimed that one who is paying for guns has decided for ATAGS hence no chance of ATHOS.
If OFB is pushing for ATHOS and really case for it is getting stronger then OFB has great connections in MoD.

For me it is always surprising on how Army and IAF cannot be in driving seat and accountable when they are real customers and it is their life which is at stake due to all procurement mess.

Excuse me you are highly pessimistic and dump here.
Net result folks spend time refuting your fears.

OFB isnot the driver.

As you are a trainee just cautioning you.

Ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

ramana wrote:
Vips wrote:Per a new report the ATAGS if ordered now will not be delivered before 2026 and the Dhanush delivery is also not happening. So new additions to our Artillery arsenal is only through import of M777 and assembly of K9 which will come to an end next month when L&T fulfills the initial contract of 100 units. I hope Sharang delivery picks up and we order the much needed MGS from Bharat Forge.

It makes sense for more K9s to equip the Independent Armoured Brigades also.

Please quote that late delivery report.

Thanks.
Artillery modernisation: Army faces gap in key capability till 2026.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

ArjunPandit wrote:
Vips wrote:Per a new report the ATAGS if ordered now will not be delivered before 2026 and the Dhanush delivery is also not happening. So new additions to our Artillery arsenal is only through import of M777 and assembly of K9 which will come to an end next month when L&T fulfills the initial contract of 100 units. I hope Sharang delivery picks up and we order the much needed MGS from Bharat Forge.
what is the source sir, baba kalyani said in 2018 of a ready plan to deliver 250 guns an year.
http://forceindia.net/feature-report/in ... ght/[quote]
“We have been able to fire up to 48 kilometres in range, which is the highest ever range that a 155mm/52 calibre artillery gun has been able to achieve in normal ammunition. The consistency and accuracy of firing is extremely good. The gun is very stable and has fired more than a thousand rounds so far and has had no trouble,” said Kalyani at DefExpo-2018 in Chennai. “We a have plant ready which can produce roughly 250 guns a year,” he added.
had we ordered we would have had at least 400 guns. Which is roughly equal to the no. of bofors we acquired over a period of 5 years. This desire to perfect systems before completion even under modi gvt perplexes me..[/quote]

Induction of any platform is not depending on how fast it can/may be supplied but on how much budget the army/navy/airforce has earmarked for that weapon in a particular year. If Kalyani is able to make 250 guns in a year that is fine but does the army have the money to make payment for all of them in a single year?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by kit »

Rakesh
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 68802?s=20 ---> DDR's pic of 80km guided Pinaka. This is Indian Army's new (relatively) weapon of choice to complement the Excaliburs it procured from US. Makes Pinaka more than a mass salvo area weapon, with fewer rounds required per target. IA has already confirmed some 10 Pinaka regiments.

Image
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/OFB_India/status/13 ... 69507?s=20 ---> Reliability firing of SHARANG artillery guns successfully completed.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 24995?s=20 ---> OFB's 155mm Sharang guns during recent reliability trials:

Image

Image
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Vips,
Induction of any platform is not depending on how fast it can/may be supplied but on how much budget the army/navy/airforce has earmarked for that weapon in a particular year. If Kalyani is able to make 250 guns in a year that is fine but does the army have the money to make payment for all of them in a single year?
Wrong question. Has Army made the case fir their artillery requirement to the MoD to go seek funds?

Retired people writing op-eds is not enough.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

It's always a balance of needs versus resources as you well know. This year it's IAF with TEJAS. LCH, HTT.
Army will get 118 Arjuns.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

DDR interview with Baba Kalyani

http://delhidefencereview.com/2021/02/1 ... a-kalyani/

Goes into seekers, composites, Jet engines, Defence R&D etc etc...

DDR: Speaking about the ATAGS, can we expect to see orders for it anytime soon?

Baba Kalyani: It should have happened already. But that is not in my hands. Our ultra-light howitzer (ULH) went for testing, came back. The problem with our procedures is that there are multiple procedures. As far as the ATAGS is concerned, we are going to Sikkim for a third time. We are hoping that something will happen with respect to procedure-related issues so that things get speeded up.
His impression about summer trials, winter trials, monsoon trials, mountain trials, desert trials, plains trials, winter in desert trials, summer in mountains trials, monsoon in plains trials, proof range trials, user trials, pre-induction trials, .....
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^
Apparently there is also a “reliability trial” :P
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