Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 26 Mar 2019 20:30

its desi bofors because the its design is based on technical documents which came as ToT alongwith Bofors. Sad that it took so many years to fructify. and IDK why only 114 have been ordered. If we are ourselves reluctant to use our stuff how do we expect to export anything !!

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 26 Mar 2019 20:38

ramana wrote:Vips Same date yet different data.
Rahul Bedi says 36 by December and Rajat Pandit says 18 by March 2020.
Would look like different sources.

The old thread had GCF production tranches.
First year was 18, 36, 36, balance of 114.
Army was to approve the following order ~400 guns.

6 are joining now. I think 36 by this year looks steep, but given the way things have been turned around for tejas and other products, keeping fingers crossed. Praying for the best

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Mar 2019 22:12

It all depends on the production flow and supply chain at GCF for the Dhanush.
Recall the Sarang (conversion of M-46 130mm) is also making its way through the system.

I hope after elections are over the rest of the order is given and budget provision made in 2020 budget.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Mar 2019 22:19

So how many confirmed orders by Modi sarkar, the Govt that did nothing for defence etc?

So far:
Dhanush 155mm, 45 cal: 114 guns, Rs 1,260 crores
Sharang 155mm, 45 cal upgrade of 130mm M-46, 300 guns, Rs 200 Crores
K-9 Tracked gun, 155mm, 52 cal, 100 guns, Rs 4500 Crores
M-777 lightweight gun, 155mm, 39 cal, 145 guns, Rs 5000 Crores

Rocket arty
Pinaka, 214mm, 2 regiments ordered in 2016, Rs 3230 crores to add to two existing regiments

Precision strike
4th Brahmos regiment at Rs 4300 crore for the China front

Approved, waiting for order
ATAGS 155mm, 52 cal, 150 guns at Rs 3,365 crore, 10 guns produced as part of trials. User assisted trials from May-June 19 (Link)
Pinaka, DAC approval for 6 more regiments obtained in 2017. With Pinaka round production now stabilizing and guided Pinaka available, something tells me we will likely go that route for a massive jump in our precision capabilities

Overall, this GOI has spent Rs 18,000 Crores on ordering extra arty for IA, around 700 guns and two regiments of MBRLs and one regiment of Brahmos. This is apart from the amount spent on ammunition imports, local production and fixes etc. Plus additional development programs underway for guided Pinaka, ATAGs, Pralay etc.

At any rate, the new induction jinx has been broken. The biggest thing is that we have new 155mm guns and homegrown answers as well. Something which makes the entire effort a huge success!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 26 Mar 2019 22:35

KaranM, Thanks for the summary post.
Going to the Hindu Link by Dinakar Peri, one ATAGS was supposed to join trials in Jan. I will ask him about that.
Second the weight is 18 tonnes now and Army wants the weight reduced to 14-15 tonnes. i.e. delta 3 tonnes.
Is this feasible for the weight affects a lot of parameters: accuracy, recoil, gun-carriage life etc.
Are there 155mm-52 cal guns that weigh in the desired weight range?

Bigger question is this an after thought to slow it down or was it not communicated in the design stage itself?

Its hard to cut down weight after the design has been completed and proven.
We see repeated desires of unaccountable officials.
Dhanush got many such suggestions by the trial folks and when incorporated a different trial crew objected!

Such suggestions for improvement should be given in writing and approved by the Arty Lt General.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Mar 2019 23:22

We get so lost in some of the details nowadays, that i find it helpful to step back and look at the bigger picture.

Re: ATAGS
The extra weight is because DRDO went for a higher pressure, volume barrel for extra firepower. And now IA wants weight reduction. I think simply put, the IA should take ATAGS as is, as a Mk1 & ask for any significant changes in Mk2. The boost to Kalyani & Tata SED & domestic production itself would be substantial.

Pinaka production is stalled purely because of OFB inability to make the rockets. I note Solar & PEL are chafing at the bit to make the rockets themselves (assembly & integration) and sooner it happens the better. Two failure analysis boards have been unable to find why things are not working out at OFB, and to me this suggests yet another production issue.

Army to rope in pvt sector for making Pinaka rockets, March 12, 2019

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst

Solar is building rockets for ARDE. While OFB does bulk production. Solar also has put in efforts to have a factory up and running. Net, we *seem to be* (don't want to jinx it) fixing the Pinaka supply. Also, we now have MK2 developed (precision at 90km). Boom time (pun intended) for the Pinaka supply chain & 6 more regiments worth of orders for TATA SED, L&T & hopefully Solar.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Mar 2019 23:25

Next, I would also like to point out we have three more programs in play which will also go to the IA.
One, Pralay, 500km. I suspect IA will take a few regiments of this as well. At least two, and finagle a few Herons for target acquisition.
Two, Nirbhay, 1000km. Again, this is more IAF & SFC level, but I won't be surprised if IA makes a strong play for this.
Three, Brahmos NG, 450km+ (300km is passe IMHO) - a drop in fit for the IAF's existing Brahmos regiments and may even prompt them to ask for a couple more.

Interesting times at Devlali for sure.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 26 Mar 2019 23:28

Have they started testing the Bharat 52 from Kalyani yet? Ordering another Made in India gun from a parallel line in the Private sector will ramp up the numbers fast.

Bharat Forge ULHs also need to be tested, and then ordered if found adequate.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 26 Mar 2019 23:36

No, it has to be trialed and its not specifically been asked for by IA as far as I remember.

ULH should just be handed over to BSF for instance. Give them a few hundred of those low-recoil 105mm and even a few 155mm.

Kakkaji · Post by **Kakkaji** » 26 Mar 2019 23:39

Karan M wrote:No, it has to be trialed and its not specifically been asked for by IA as far as I remember.

Even then, it is available, it is Made in India, so why not test it, and order it if it passes the tests? We need the numbers, so we need parallel lines. One program hits some delays, and the whole procurement gets stuck, while the army needs go unmet.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 26 Mar 2019 23:50

karan sir, are you on twitter, if you are please post this information. I will share it. Else I will share by giving credit to you. Let me know .

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 27 Mar 2019 02:05

Regarding performance of Modi sarkar viz acquisitions:

1. ARMY: With Arty and Small Arms sorted - i think we can say that pressure on Army's procurement backlog has been sorted to a big extent. Tanks are not a pressing issue at this time - IMHO.

2. NAVY is doing alright thanks to many orders during UPA years but other than the shallow water ASW order there is nothing else of note in Modi term.

3. AIR FORCE worst off - there is some light at the end of the tunnel thanks to a LCA but unless Rafale wins the second tender soon, the IAF is not going regain size - ever.

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 27 Mar 2019 02:17

Aditya G wrote:Regarding performance of Modi sarkar viz acquisitions:

1. ARMY: With Arty and Small Arms sorted - i think we can say that pressure on Army's procurement backlog has been sorted to a big extent. Tanks are not a pressing issue at this time - IMHO.

2. NAVY is doing alright thanks to many orders during UPA years but other than the shallow water ASW order there is nothing else of note in Modi term.

3. AIR FORCE worst off - there is some light at the end of the tunnel thanks to a LCA but unless Rafale wins the second tender soon, the IAF is not going regain size - ever.

This is highly OT for this thread but I totally disagree with point 3. If not for this govt, even the Rafales that were ordered would not have been purchased (see the history of the MRCA during 8 years of UPA, and even their current approach to the Rafale deal), nor would LCAs have seen FOC or deployment in squadrons that easily, if at all. The late Shri Parrikar had a key role in the latter.

The airforce might still be badly under-strength, but you can hardly blame the Modi sarkar for 20 years of neglect. Fulfilling jingo dreams of upping defence budget to 5% of GDP to buy 200 Rafales is not going to happen, not with this govt, and certainly not with any other.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Mar 2019 05:30

https://twitter.com/ThePrintIndia/statu ... 08192?s=19

Advantage Indian Army: Dhanush’s high range, accuracy will be a boon in mountainous LoC

Chief Editor of Delhi Defence Review, Saurav Jha @SJha1618, writes in #ThePrintOpinion

https://t.co/uXXzblQ6lQ

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 27 Mar 2019 07:30

Let's not forget Su 30 fleet availability was 35% in 2014 and spares and ammunition was short. This had emboldened Pakistan and China and both misbehaved until they realised corrective measures.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 Mar 2019 07:38

that was the UPA regime - for political cover will not cancel anything overtly, but covertly starve all orgs and projects with less funds and delays to wither the capability...... mission accomplished.....500 F22 that have no proper serviceability is worse than 20 bandars!

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 27 Mar 2019 17:40

Kakkaji wrote:
Karan M wrote:No, it has to be trialed and its not specifically been asked for by IA as far as I remember.
Even then, it is available, it is Made in India, so why not test it, and order it if it passes the tests? We need the numbers, so we need parallel lines. One program hits some delays, and the whole procurement gets stuck, while the army needs go unmet.

The Kalyani Bharat 52 will be in competition with OFB's upcoming Dhanush Gun of 52 calibre. I think Indian Army's plans are to procure 300 guns of 52 calibre after the delivery of the 114 guns of 45 calibre is done. Only issue is looking at the long drawn and multiple summer/winter trials process there will be a gap of at least 4-5 years (from now) till the first guns of 52 calibre are inducted.

Will be interesting to see if the Army will give the Kalyani/Bharat 52 a fair chance or will just go with OFB/Dhanush.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2019 00:57

Vips the requirement is for 414 Dhanush.

There is plenty of inventory required.

Leaving procurement to the unaccountable selection board is creating troubles as can bee seen.
The combat formations are realizing these guys are practically denuding the forces in their quest for the better than NATO standards got by brochuritits.

Still don't understand how the M777 had shell strike in it.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Mar 2019 02:19

ArjunPandit wrote:karan sir, are you on twitter, if you are please post this information. I will share it. Else I will share by giving credit to you. Let me know .

Sir, whatever i post on BRF, you are free to use as you see fit as long as it helps drive Indian interests or is generally useful. In short please go ahead!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Mar 2019 02:38

Aditya G wrote:3. AIR FORCE worst off - there is some light at the end of the tunnel thanks to a LCA but unless Rafale wins the second tender soon, the IAF is not going regain size - ever.

Disagree completely.
Off the top of my head:
1. Got IAF serviceability back to fighting levels. This is by far the biggest thing. From 30-40% levels to 65% for the Su-30s for instance.
2. Multiple Indian munitions, EW and other programs sanctioned, funded & progressed - many are in final trials.
3. IAF combat support items keep getting ordered with minimal fuss. For instance GBMES (Link), Litening 4I (huge # of pods), IAF SDR, PGM kits, Brahmos SSM etc etc. The IAF is able to wage war far more effectively.
4. S-400, 5 Regiments - again, completely changes the complexion of the IAF ADGES.
5. 36 Rafale, silver bullet force with Meteor and Scalp
6. LCA Program revitalized and put in place (83 LCA Mk1A, 200 odd LCA Mk2)
7. 22 Apaches and 15 Chinooks
...

AFs done pretty well with its budget. The real change will kick in once the DRDO EW & munitions programs start delivering, we will see a complete change in the warfighting capability then.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Mar 2019 02:47

Karan M wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:karan sir, are you on twitter, if you are please post this information. I will share it. Else I will share by giving credit to you. Let me know .
Sir, whatever i post on BRF, you are free to use as you see fit as long as it helps drive Indian interests or is generally useful. In short please go ahead!

Amen! Well said!!

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Mar 2019 17:25

I'd like to know if modern electronic fuses can be jammed by any means?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2019 20:12

There are two kind of electronic fuzes/
1) Plain electronic fuze where the mechanical timing portion is replaced with an electronic circuit to initiate the shell detonation. Considering that the whole fuze is encased in a metal casing which acts as a Faraday cage highly remote chance of jamming or premature detonation. Besides all such components have EMI/EMF requirements they have to meet.
BTW OFB uses a ECIL fuze called Zelar which is electronic fuze and no concerns were raised.
2) Proximity fuze which works by sending RF signal and works on reflection of the signal back. Its possible to spoof the signal to cause false return and function the fuze. However Proximity Fuzes are for air burst in open areas and not point targets like bunkers etc.
155mm shell lethal fragments are ~150 m. So the jammer has to work quite far off.

I think this is all hogwash scare mongering by worry warts or naysayers.
The old M572 PD fuze is very unreliable and expensive to make. The timer is anyway imported.
Long ago in 1990s IA recommended going for electronic fuzes.
Promptly the Procurement guys stopped the orders without ensuring the electronic fuze mfg is available.
This led to huge gaps needing imports. You get the picture of who made what.
Finally BEL got a JV with an Israeli company and started making EF.
Also OFB has perfected their own EF PD Fuze for 155mm shells per the MoD 2018 report page 60.
Now that the production is flowing some motivated people are saying they can be jammed.
The repartee is the mechanical fuzes are unreliable and OFB production stopped so whats your solution?

IA has two type of shells:
The M107 low carbon steel for general purpose and ERFB high fragmentation steel shell for troops in open.
The ERFB is also more aerodynamic giving greater range with Base Bleed and Boat Tail.
I think the M107 shells get the PD fuze and the ERFB get the proximity fuzes for fragment effect.
Electronic Fuzes were evaluated in 1990s and decided to switch. Its sad MoD procurement cycle that it took 25 years to get there.
And now some askhole is raising jamming to further delay the induction.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Mar 2019 20:15

we now have in our hand, in production ready mode, with 90% indigenization and full IP, 3 of the top10 155mm howitzers in the world Dhanush, ATAGS and Bharat52.

imo HUUUGE orders need to be placed for all 3 and a complete desi ecosystem built up around these game changing weapons and their shells.

we also have M777 and FH77B which though a bit dated are still up there with the best.

we need to be the country with the highest holding of 155mm artillery regiments on gods earth. nobody has this portfolio not even close.

srin · Post by **srin** » 28 Mar 2019 20:41

Karan M wrote:
Aditya G wrote:3. AIR FORCE worst off - there is some light at the end of the tunnel thanks to a LCA but unless Rafale wins the second tender soon, the IAF is not going regain size - ever.
Disagree completely.
Off the top of my head:
1. Got IAF serviceability back to fighting levels. This is by far the biggest thing. From 30-40% levels to 65% for the Su-30s for instance.
2. Multiple Indian munitions, EW and other programs sanctioned, funded & progressed - many are in final trials.
3. IAF combat support items keep getting ordered with minimal fuss. For instance GBMES (Link), Litening 4I (huge # of pods), IAF SDR, PGM kits, Brahmos SSM etc etc. The IAF is able to wage war far more effectively.
4. S-400, 5 Regiments - again, completely changes the complexion of the IAF ADGES.
5. 36 Rafale, silver bullet force with Meteor and Scalp
6. LCA Program revitalized and put in place (83 LCA Mk1A, 200 odd LCA Mk2)
7. 22 Apaches and 15 Chinooks
...

AFs done pretty well with its budget. The real change will kick in once the DRDO EW & munitions programs start delivering, we will see a complete change in the warfighting capability then.

Add to the list ...
8. Akash orders and upcoming Akash 1S. I don't have the info on the radar procurements, but what I sense is that the air defence has undergone massive upgradation.
9. AEW&C being operational.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 28 Mar 2019 20:53

Srin, you are cent per cent right about massive upgradation in air defence. Lets look at IA for instance.
For instance, IA wanted to replace Flycatcher/older Reporter radars. It put a tender out and in 1st phase has got 66 IAI SkyCapture units while the DRDO ADFCR undergoes confirmatory user trials (it too, is ready).
And in the meantime, IA has ordered around 50 odd Bharani Mk2 LLLWRs. All these orders just keep coming through with minimal fuss or hype.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Mar 2019 22:51

Folks please stick to thread topic.
Singha means you.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Mar 2019 22:58

Ramana-ji, I have moved all the off-topic posts to the International Aerospace Thread.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 28 Mar 2019 23:13

Thanks ramana.

Question about another possible hoax. How can Swati be used against mortar positions? Are they very short range? That would require the WLRs to be close to border too, exposing them to counter-fire.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Mar 2019 01:18

I don't know the Swati effective range.
But if it can locate Guns, it can locate mortars.

Lots of naysayers who would rather have nothing than something.
And find fault with desi talent.

all masters of CIA How to sabotage school of scandals.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Mar 2019 01:18

Swati can detect mortars from 4-20 km.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 29 Mar 2019 01:22

Thanks

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 29 Mar 2019 01:23

Please see SRai's post from 2016 in the DRDO thread.

srai wrote:

and this

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 02 Apr 2019 23:43

Bofors guns saying hello to pakis

Initially I thought that they are Dhanush guns but Ravi Shankar garu confirmed that they are bofors.

===================

Palepu Ravi Shankar
‏
@palepurshankar
13m13 minutes ago
More
Replying to @Vamsee9002 @nileshjrane @elmihiro
Hey. Bofors has auto firing and burst capability of 3 rounds in 15 secs since 1984 when I first fired it! It is still one of the best guns going around. That is why Dhanush which is an upgraded Bofors with latest technology will succeed.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 04 Apr 2019 19:59

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1113781913087610880

On April 8, the first Dhanush howitzers will be handed over to the Indian Army. The Dhanush is the indigenised Bofors 155mm gun that India purchased in the eighties.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Apr 2019 21:36

The bofors video was published 4th march

Vamsee · Post by **Vamsee** » 04 Apr 2019 21:54

Dhanush handing over is becoming like Priyanka-Nick Jonas wedding reception.
Previous page of this thread has news report saying that first batch of Dhanush was handed over on 26th March. Now Apr 8th?

--Vamsee

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Apr 2019 23:04

Vamsee wrote:Dhanush handing over xxxx
Previous page of this thread has news report saying that first batch of Dhanush was handed over on 26th March. Now Apr 8th?

--Vamsee

Looks like the date has slipped.
Location is same GCF, Jabalpur.
Maybe clash with dignitaries schedule.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 05 Apr 2019 02:28

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1113781913087610880 ---> On April 8th, the first Dhanush howitzers will be handed over to the Indian Army. The Dhanush is the indigenised Bofors 155mm gun that India purchased in the 80s.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Apr 2019 12:20

Watch the shell.

https://twitter.com/adgpi/status/111470 ... 06176?s=19