Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Good article by Sandeep Unnithan about locations of various artillery ecosystems in the country:

https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-09-28
Larry Walker
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Larry Walker »

Probably time has come to remove our blind trust blinkers for the military procurement arm and do a thorough house cleaning. I am still at loss to understand what difference does 3 ton more weight have on roads and bridges and towing capability if it is still overall under 20 tons. What spectacular will be achieved by reducing 3 tons vs saving lives of 100's of our soldiers in another Kargil type war. Lt Gen Chawla is just mouthing inanities to distract from the basic issue. Sorry to say but he sounds like one of our corrupt politicians delivering a pre-election speech.
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

One could think that the Army is concerned about the axel load limit.

But the thing is that today wherever the FH 77B can be towed. The ATAGS can be towed as well. Because the weight of ATAGS is spread over 2 axels. Compared to 1 axel for FH77 B.

So this weight related issue is not understandable.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Just for the records, the ATAGS just cleared 100s of Kms of towing tests in Ladakh etc!

So, WTH is the Army complaining about? The tow truck, the gun & the roads can all take the load. Also, why in the world do you make the gun go through all these tests if you have already decided that its 3 tons too heavy?

Once weight reduction happens in ATAGS 2.0, off they go for another 100 Kms of towing tests!

2 decades after Kargil & the needle hasn't moved! A thorough house-cleaning is required.
SRajesh
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SRajesh »

^^ 'Top down' approach or branch-wise Services/MOD etc.
MOD/babooz straitening with major elections round the corner will the Government 'bite the bullet', as there are quite a few disgruntled missing the 'Malai Express'
Services review, Hmm that would be like proverbial 'Crossing the Rubicon' know!!
Until the third term, these probably wont be tackled
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Arty import ban comes in to force effective 31st December. Athos procurement has already been rejected by the government. No alternative exists.

The army will have to make do with ATAGS or they will not get any other guns.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

I think the "emergency procurement" clause supersedes the "no import" clause. It will be fully exploited.
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I don't think so.

But if emergency procurement has to happen, it will be of bharat 52 with a ammo handling crane.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Larry Walker »

Prem Kumar wrote:I think the "emergency procurement" clause supersedes the "no import" clause. It will be fully exploited.
Already articles and blogs have started on why IA needs emergency purchase of 400 Athos. Once you have 400, you make case for 1000 more and bury ATAGS and Dhanush.
And we will later sit and cry watching one more Shershah movie, not realizing that the our Vikram Batra's would not have to lose their life just because our military leadership was sold out for few pieces of silver :cry: :|
srin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srin »

They don't need to buy Athos, they can lease !
YashG
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

Pratyush wrote:Arty import ban comes in to force effective 31st December. Athos procurement has already been rejected by the government. No alternative exists.

The army will have to make do with ATAGS or they will not get any other guns.
I like your hope against the hell in this situation. May you be right. But I find IA's love for phoren maal here .... :x
Haridas
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Haridas »

srin wrote:They don't need to buy Athos, they can lease !
Sure here is my quote for the lease:
1) 20% of list price/ yr for first 5 year, layer Yeats it drops to 15% /yr.
2) Lease period of 5 years, thereafter in 4 year increments.
Lease cancelation terms: upon full payment due for the contracted lease.
Last edited by Haridas on 01 Oct 2021 23:21, edited 1 time in total.
arvin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by arvin »

ATAGS is our best hope to make and field 100 km precision artillery shell like XM1155. Skardu can be flattened using artillary fire from kargil.

Import ban list is a joke. Most useful to wrap moong phali.
Vips
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

With big guns, Army keeps combat posture along LAC.

The Army continues with its strong combat posture along the entire frontier with China, which includes high-volume artillery firepower ranging from the older 105mm field guns, Bofors and rocket systems to the spanking new M-777 ultra-light howitzers, amid no signs of deescalation in eastern Ladakh.

The M-777 howitzers can be airlifted from one sector to another in forward areas by Chinook helicopters, while the swifter mobilization of heavier
artillery guns has been made possible by the roads constructed by the Border Roads Organization (BRO) over the last couple of years.

“As the BRO further takes the road network to forward areas, we will be able to deploy our guns in more locations,” said director general (artillery) Lt-General T K Chawla, a day ahead of the Gunners’

The Army is also trial-evaluating whether the new K-9 Vajra self-propelled tracked guns, procured for operations in plains and deserts, can be effectively deployed in high-altitude regions as well, he added.

The force has inducted 100 of 155mm/52-calibre K-9 guns, which have a range of 28-38-km, under a Rs 4,366 joint project of L&T and South Korean Hanwha Defence. “We are also examining whether more K-9 guns are needed,” said Lt-Gen Chawla.

As for the M-777 howitzers, primarily meant for the China front, around half of the 145 guns ordered for over Rs 5,000 crore from the US have been delivered so far. With a strike range of 30-km, three M-777 regiments have been deployed along the Line of Actual Control with China.

There is, however, slow progress in two major indigenous artillery guns, both of which have faced problems during trials. The first is the 155mm/45-calibre Dhanush howitzers, the electronically upgraded version of the original Bofors guns. The Army had earlier placed an order for 114 of these guns for Rs 1,260 crore from the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

The second is the 155mm/52 caliber advanced towed artillery gun systems (ATAGS), which the DRDO contends is the best in its class in the world with a 48-km strike range. The Army needs as many as 1,580 such guns.

“A lot of handholding has been done by the Army, both for ATAGS and Dhanush. We want the indigenous efforts to succeed. There are major advantages in having indigenous systems and not being dependent on foreign technologies,” said Lt-Gen Chawla.

After “constructive discussions” with both OFB and DRDO, the senior officer said he was “optimistic” that “certain parameters not achieved” during trials of ATAGS and the “few teething issues” with Dhanush will both be resolved soon. “We want robust guns. Guns which are able to fire accurately, consistently and with a high degree of reliability as per laid down parameters,” he said.
Vivek K
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

India lives in the tech medieval ages with its armed forces wanting to keep her locked there. Good luck resisting the enemy with the limited import resources. While the rest of the world produces systems one after the other - our corruption exerts its stranglehold on our abilities to cripple our strength.
Karan M
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Prem Kumar wrote:Good article by Sandeep Unnithan about locations of various artillery ecosystems in the country:

https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-09-28
Now that ATAGS is delayed, and the only two options are import then localize (Athos) and partly localized (Trajan) Bharat Forge should show some sense and trial Bharat-52 with the IA offering it as a completely desi alternative, as we've bought out the design completely.
Vivek K
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

You seriously believe that IA would even give it a chance?
Vips
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Heck the armed forces were and even now not allowing Bharat Forge to even use its testing ranges. Bharat Forge had to conduct costly trials in US and South Africa.

Bharat Forge offers a complete range of Artillery Guns in service or required by the Army
Bharat 45 = Dhanush
Bharat 52 for 52 caliber guns
105 MM Mounted gun on light Van
155 MM Mounted gun on a 4X4 light truck
ULH for mountain operations (Titanium and Stainless Steel versions) = M777
chetak
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Vips wrote:Heck the armed forces were and even now not allowing Bharat Forge to even use its testing ranges. Bharat Forge had to conduct costly trials in US and South Africa.

Bharat Forge offers a complete range of Artillery Guns in service or required by the Army
Bharat 45 = Dhanush
Bharat 52 for 52 caliber guns
105 MM Mounted gun on light Van
155 MM Mounted gun on a 4X4 light truck
ULH for mountain operations (Titanium and Stainless Steel versions) = M777
use of Indian army property by private companies.

how and why and on what basis.

or are they to allow it on the same basis where one runditeevee was allowed to celebrate a private birthday party in the rashtrapathi bhavan ie for free because of institutionalized butt kissing by this woke bunch congi commie supporters

what about corruption charges that are bound to follow

who decides the hire charges for use of army facilities.

what of damages and liability in case of accidents and injuries, say from a burst barrel, for example who pays and how much. what of court cases that arise because of this and what if the IA is made a party because it happened on their land

what if some joker's company turns up at the supreme court tomorrow and says that my 20 ton satellite should be launched by ISRO because govt property is my property and ISRO should be ordered to help me

what if this company's main business is selling stale hilsa fish and it is a beedi joint venture with an Indian fishmonger as the majority stake holder

and what if the SC says yes because it is both woke and inclusive.
Anujan
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

The performance problems of ATAGS seems to have been written up in an earlier article
https://theprint.in/defence/drdo-will-b ... ns/668417/

The Athos saga
Army has been pursuing a separate process for procurement of towed guns from abroad under the ‘Make In India’ initiative. The gun that has finally emerged as the lowest bidder for this process was the ATHOS of the Israeli firm Elbit, in 2019. The deal was for the supply of 400 guns and indigenous production of another 1,180 guns by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), under a full Transfer of Technology (TOT) process. However, the Army has changed its plans and is now eyeing to only procure 400 of the ATHOS
The weight problem
Army has a “few issues of concern”. Sources said that the first among these is the aspect of extra weight, which may impact on the operational performance of the gun system in mountainous and high altitude terrain. The ATAGS is said to weigh around 18 tonnes. In comparison, the ATHOS weigh less than 15 tonnes.
But...Weight does not seem to affect mobility
“Movement to Lukrep meant covering 341 kilometres and was tested over 10 days. ATAGS could negotiate the otherwise un-accessible mountainous terrain with steep gradient and narrow Hair-Pin Bends with ease....He added that the total distance traveled by the ATAGS in mountains and high altitude was 526 kms as against 23 Kms mobility test done for foreign guns.

The "Inability to meet firing parameters" problem
A second concern they said is the “inability of the gun” system to meet the critical performance parameters, especially with regard to rates of fire.

ATAGS programme sources said that the rate of fire includes the burst firing of five rounds in one minute, intense firing of 10 rounds in two-and-a-half minutes and a sustained rate of 60 rounds in sixty minutes.

In comparison, the Elbit Systems claims ATHOS can fire three rounds in 30 seconds, 12 rounds in three minutes, and 42 rounds in sixty minutes.
5 rounds in 1 min = 1 round in 12 secs (ATAGS)
3 rounds in 3 secs = 1 round in 10 secs (Athos)

10 rounds in 2 mins 30 secs = 1 round in 15 secs (ATAGS)
12 rounds in 3 mins = 1 round in 15 secs (athos)

60 rounds in sixty mins = 1 round per min (ATAGS)
42 round in sixty mins = 1 round per 1.4 min (Athos)

Not sure if this was design performance, or actual performance.

Barrel Burst problem
The third concern expressed is the September 2020 accident during the internal validation trials of the ATAGS in a firing range. The barrel of the gun burst while firing a round.
Cost problem
Incidentally the cost is also a factor. While the ATHOS will cost less than Rs 11 crore per piece, the ATAGS is said to be costing anywhere between Rs 16-18 crore.
Karan M
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

Anujan, based on the article, the reasons cited against ATAGS appear completely bogus. The M777 suffered a muzzle strike or two too. A former VCAS has also spoken up about the ATAGS getting a raw deal. As long as its fixed,it shouldn't be held agast the system. The rate of fire and mobility claims are clearly bogus. If our 40 ton tanks can be taken around, so can a 18T ATAGS. Get Bharat 52 or Trajan for the lighter segment then.

The most bizarre complaint I read was from a former commandant of the Arty school who wanted the ATAGS to be at the same price as the ATHOS not even bothering about the fact order value for ATHOS at 400 was some 2-3x the reported indent for ATAGS. Apparently the basics of economy of scale aren't their issue at all.

The December date for no more imports, needs to be strictly maintained and a political decision to induct the ATAGS needs to be taken. Otherwise the Army will keep refusing to induct if thinking anyhow they've got imports.
Anujan
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

Totally agree. This line stood out
total distance traveled by the ATAGS in mountains and high altitude was 526 kms as against 23 Kms mobility test done for foreign guns...Winter Trials was moving the guns to the Northern-most point of operational area (Lukrep) in the Plateau areas of North Sikkim.

If I were to take a guess...

Athos order was 400 outright purchase followed by 1,180 OFB manufacture after ToT

When ATAGS started clearing trials, it was changed to 400 Athos followed by the rest ATAGS.

Maybe there is some lobby hoping for at least 400 imports.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »


I know first hand how this works and also the ecosystem of people who line up, palm outstretched, to reap the "collateral benefits".

advertising is one thing, actual ground reality is another.

Yes, to prove the rule, there will be one or two insignificant examples.

there are any number of "private companies" who are slyly getting items manufactured in govt facilities for free because of "contacts" and selling these items back to govt labs and PSUs.
chetak
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Anujan wrote:Totally agree. This line stood out
total distance traveled by the ATAGS in mountains and high altitude was 526 kms as against 23 Kms mobility test done for foreign guns...Winter Trials was moving the guns to the Northern-most point of operational area (Lukrep) in the Plateau areas of North Sikkim.

If I were to take a guess...

Athos order was 400 outright purchase followed by 1,180 OFB manufacture after ToT

When ATAGS started clearing trials, it was changed to 400 Athos followed by the rest ATAGS.

Maybe there is some lobby hoping for at least 400 imports.
the IN initially funded the ALH dhruv and placed orders for a total of close to 200 nos.

due to abject non performance by this soooper doooper PSU, the orders were whittled down to the low two figures

was the IN too hoping for imports

IN ships are practically nude without the shipborne helo embarked and exploitation doctrines are hugely constrained due to the lack of such helos in place

how long should the IN have waited for these soooper doooper PSU wonders to get their finger out and get going.

I still remember one bad meeting where the chairman said after the meeting was over "if you don't come to us, where else will you go, we will block off your every move" I wish that he had the testimonials to say it in the meeting.

These guys will neither piss nor will they get off the pot. Nothing that the IN did budged them nor were they willing to accept the help offered by the IN to try and resolve technical issues.

So finally, the message was delivered, loud and clear, in the only language that they understood: cancellation of orders.

whichever lobby it is, it has to get past the govt which is very vary of scams and always sees a scam under every bed.

As long as Modi is in the seat, imports are not being allowed to go through unless it is a compulsory govt to govt deal and the decision is taken at levels very much higher than the PSU, MoD and DRDO

wasn't this how the french fighter and the ameriki howitzer deals took place as did the P8I and the airforce transport and helo deals

Even though pappu ji maharaj and his grubby coterie say otherwise, pray tell, where exactly do you see the lobby in any of these imports
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

^^pratyush ji i am a kid in knowledge as compared to you..so no ji for me..
here's my take on this/indigenization
1. IN is already bought in
2. IAF was largely convinced/coerced by MP with Tejas
3. IA the biggest and most powerful beast was not addressed/tackled, we have to keep in mind most IA is not technically inclined and has been ingrained with inefficiences of OFB and delays by DRDO so whatever the leadership says others believe/follow largely, experiences of INSAS and faulty ammo didnt help either. The games played by top ones are not visible or implausible to most of the soldiers on ground. IA is also a huge voting base. Govt has to choose own survivability. I hope when the right time comes all the points for IA are addressed too.
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Arjun,

Even though I am critical of the Indian army. I personally think that the blame is squarely on the MOD and the defence minister. He should be the one who ought to be speaking to the the Indian army.

But doesn't mean that the army has not been a bad faith actor.

If they issue a GSQR, at least stand behind them. Or have the honesty to withdraw GSQR if they don't want a specific equipment.

Secondly, the breakup of OFB is something that so many reformers have been asking for over the last few decades. It finally got done. That gives me hope that the Army's issues with domestic equipment will get solved in the next few years.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

As the saying goes, more small shells do greater damage than few large shells. Pinaka is great equipment that we have; unfortunately, we aren’t exploiting it enough.
Lt Gen. P. Ravi Shankar in conversation with Sandeep Unnithan
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2021-04-22

We have to exploit indigenous systems.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

1 regiment of Vajra deployed in Ladakh - good news!

Our DG Artillery is now considering whether additional orders must be placed! Months after the production line has gone idle.

Speaks volumes about his ability to strategize-plan-execute
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Prem Kumar wrote:1 regiment of Vajra deployed in Ladakh - good news!

Our DG Artillery is now considering whether additional orders must be placed! Months after the production line has gone idle.

Speaks volumes about his ability to strategize-plan-execute
Gen Chawla took over July 2021 as DG Arty. Pray teLl what strategy he can execute when in previous role he was no where near W&E directorate.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Tanaji »

ks_sachin wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:1 regiment of Vajra deployed in Ladakh - good news!

Our DG Artillery is now considering whether additional orders must be placed! Months after the production line has gone idle.

Speaks volumes about his ability to strategize-plan-execute
Gen Chawla took over July 2021 as DG Arty. Pray teLl what strategy he can execute when in previous role he was no where near W&E directorate.
One would like to think that institutions have continuity in terms of thinking and strategy. The situation on LAC has been brewing for some time now and the utility of artillery one hopes is not a great realisation to the post of DG artillery. The general staff would probably have laid down the guiding principles of how the LAC is to be defended in case of all out war, it’s not unreasonable to expect DG artillery to have a strategy in that regard as he would be doing the nitty gritty of number of guns required.

Bit late to ask for more guns when we have known what the Chinese can throw at us since a long time.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Tanaji wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
Gen Chawla took over July 2021 as DG Arty. Pray teLl what strategy he can execute when in previous role he was no where near W&E directorate.
One would like to think that institutions have continuity in terms of thinking and strategy. The situation on LAC has been brewing for some time now and the utility of artillery one hopes is not a great realisation to the post of DG artillery. The general staff would probably have laid down the guiding principles of how the LAC is to be defended in case of all out war, it’s not unreasonable to expect DG artillery to have a strategy in that regard as he would be doing the nitty gritty of number of guns required.

Bit late to ask for more guns when we have known what the Chinese can throw at us since a long time.
How each and every km of the Chinese border is to be defended has been sandmoddeled to death. In addition defences have been built and fortified over decades. Because of the geography we know pretty much what offensive options the Chinese have

If we are now thinking of Vajra there then there could have been a strategic shift in the recent past.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

When we order in piecemeals, most observer are able to tell that we will need more of this (whether it is pinaka, Javra, Atags or LCH, LUH etc.). Yet it baffles me why do we do this. The only explanation that comes to my mind is by ordering low numbers, artificial urgency is created and then phoren order placed. I was skeptical of presence of import lobby but after seieng how atags was arjuned and how in other weapons programs, first small orders are given (since there is no money) and then the money appears the moment imports are done. I'm now convinced that import lobby exists perhaps in the most discreet ways. In any case, It is in interest of US, RUssia & EU & beyond to keep indian MIC starved.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Go all ahead with the K9. Keep on building it till the decision on MGS is made and then switch to MGS.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

Prem Kumar wrote:1 regiment of Vajra deployed in Ladakh - good news!

Our DG Artillery is now considering whether additional orders must be placed! Months after the production line has gone idle.

Speaks volumes about his ability to strategize-plan-execute
Such incompetent persons have no place in an army! Failure to plan comes at the cost of national security!!
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Anujan, About the barrel burst we need to find out how the shells are filled with explosives by OFB. And the composition of the explosive.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:Anujan, About the barrel burst we need to find out how the shells are filled with explosives by OFB. And the composition of the explosive.
https://www.outlookindia.com/newswire/s ... pur/628865

The link suggest that the 155 mm round contains 8 kg explosives. Reading from other sources it suggests that it is either TNT or RDX.

unfortunately the horses mouth is not accessible https://ofb.gov.in/product/products/pro ... erfb-bt-bb

The shell as explained earlier in the thread is filled with explosive that are poured as a viscous fluid in the shell cavity. Which upon cooling hardens into an insensitive solid.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

YashG wrote:When we order in piecemeals, most observer are able to tell that we will need more of this (whether it is pinaka, Javra, Atags or LCH, LUH etc.). Yet it baffles me why do we do this. The only explanation that comes to my mind is by ordering low numbers, artificial urgency is created and then phoren order placed.
But K9 is already a foreign system screwdrivered in India and there is no indigenous equivalent available since we threw away the Bhim. So what is the point in creating artificial urgency here? I believe this is a classic combination of available budget being too low for a larger initial order and organizational lethargy in processing additional orders before the production line shuts down. The budget issue itself is not simply explained by govt. coffers being empty. The problem is also with the forces and MoD being hopeless at prioritizing purchases. How they managed to justify spending a billion on 6 Apaches when we have so many shortfalls everywhere I will never know.
I was skeptical of presence of import lobby but after seieng how atags was arjuned and how in other weapons programs, first small orders are given (since there is no money) and then the money appears the moment imports are done. I'm now convinced that import lobby exists perhaps in the most discreet ways. In any case, It is in interest of US, RUssia & EU & beyond to keep indian MIC starved.
When it comes to Indian defence procurements, it doesn't matter what system is under discussion, there is always an import lobby working furiously somewhere. How successful they are depends on abilities and intentions of the military and civilian leadership at that time. Most of the media (barring a few notable exceptions) will always sell themselves to the highest bidder and inevitably end up shilling for the foreign manufacturers.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

L&T is producing around 70-80% of K9 locally. And I think 50% by value. The engine and electronics must be imported. The Koreans allowed such high localisation because they know India can easily produce armor. There was no point holding it back.

This is good enough, as we have the design skills in CVRDE. Having L&T as another line for armor is very very helpful.

CVRDE is working through the 1500hp engine now.

In terms of land system... tech is not the block. Only MoD can force the matter.

Unfortunately for our forces only DPSU & OFB model can work. Given their habit of taking their own sweet time, changing spec during development... no private company can sustain such a customer.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

nam, The reason OFB did not work earlier was it's another govt department. What that means is there is no contract to perform to. It's an indent from one govt bureau to another. And captive customer makes OFB very uncaring. So corporatization was a must to at least have them on contract to account for.
DPSUs have contracts.
However, as chetak mentioned HAL has an OFB mindset. Lets see.
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