Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

US is also looking at mobile artillery system.


https://www.defensenews.com/land/2020/1 ... ts-emerge/
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

ramana wrote:US is also looking at mobile artillery system.


https://www.defensenews.com/land/2020/1 ... ts-emerge/
Yes they are but someone somewhere is going to ask the US Army the question of how and who is going to move some of these behemoths across continents and particularly deploying them into the pacific and then moving them within the theater. The archer and some of the other large solutions are just absurd and I expect those to go nowhere. The best they can hope for is a 155mm gun on an existing FMTV. Madus has that in the Brutus where the gun is the only thing that needs to move (the truck is standard in the US Army so deploying it is already factored in the logistical footprint). I expect this program to be eventually cancelled after the demonstration.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

It's just data for reference.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

Dont think this was posted here. SOme useful data points that

https://theprint.in/defence/how-armys-a ... ce/553053/

> "Induction of K9 Vajra is on schedule and will finish by March 2021.” 51st was delivered earlier this year
>According to the contract, L&T was to complete delivery of all 100 K9 Vajra-Ts to the Army by the end of 2020.
>Sources in the Army said that 77 K9 Vajras have already been handed over to the Army.

>Reports say the Army is likely to get all the 145 Howitzers by the end of 2021 to equip the M777 regiments that it is planning to form.

> OFB also handed over six Dhanush guns to the Army in 2019, which was touted as a major success story of the Make in India initiative. The OFB was to deliver another six to eight guns, but could not because of a Covid-19 lockdown.
> Army is looking at inducting 18 guns soon. According to reports, the OFB is now working on the next two versions of the Dhanush gun including a truck-mounted version.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Dhanush guns
This is the first indigenously-built artillery gun with a range of 38 km; its automated technology allows three guns to be fired simultaneously at a rate of 42 rounds per hour.
14 rounds per hour per gun or 42?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by putnanja »

Army to test indigenous artillery system with 48-km strike range
...
The 155mm/52 caliber advanced towed artillery gun system (ATAGS) is set to undergo “winter user trials” by the Army in Sikkim in January-February, which will be followed by the “mobility trials” and then the “summer trials” in May-June.

With the development of ATAGS, which has Bharat Forge (Kalyani Group) and Tata Advanced Systems as the production partners, DRDO officials contend the Army has no need to import such guns from Israel or other countries.

But the Army says the indigenous guns will have to first prove their worth in the forthcoming user trials. The force has a parallel project stuck in the final stages to procure 400 Athos towed gun systems for Rs 5,147 crore from Israeli firm Elbit Systems, which was originally supposed to be followed by the domestic production of another 1,180 guns in collaboration with the Ordnance Factory Board.

The Israeli gun had emerged as L-1 (lowest bidder) a year ago to beat the French one from Nexter Systems after trials. “Our procurement case for towed artillery guns has been hanging fire since 2010,” said an Army officer.
...
Amidst this wrangling, the user-trials of the indigenous ATAGS also got somewhat delayed after the barrel of one of the guns burst during test-firing at the Pokhran field firing range in Rajasthan, which injured four personnel, in September.

“It was most probably due to defective ammunition. There was no issue with the barrel. Over 2,000 rounds have already been successfully test-fired from the ATAGS during high-altitude trials in Sikkim and then in Pokhran,” a senior DRDO official said.
...
...
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Summer Winter Mobility Palm Greasing trials. LOL. Did they fire 2000+ rounds from Athos too and took it on so many dates as they are doing with ATAGS?

>>“Our procurement case for towed artillery guns has been hanging fire since 2010,

Really, just like rifles, carbines, grenades, helmets, guns, BPJs and almost everything else that a professional army needs gets stuck in the procurement circle for decades?

Or is it Rajat Pandit being the soldout DDM who forgot to mention this drama which started during Rajiv Gandhi's reign?

I don't want to whine, but this is just too much. MoD is indeed a cesspool, but army is not much better.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

If Athos even gets trialled in 2021, then Rajnath Singh's "no-import-list" will become a joke.

If they are going to make an exception for artillery (especially when sound domestic alternatives exist), then dalals everywhere will be drooling
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by sum »

The 155mm/52 caliber advanced towed artillery gun system (ATAGS) is set to undergo “winter user trials” by the Army in Sikkim in January-February, which will be followed by the “mobility trials” and then the “summer trials” in May-June.
Weren't "summer trials" already done and "winter trials" supposed to be the last step?

So, now it all circles back to level 0?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

As I mentioned earlier, the story is a plant by OFB with probably some babus in the MoD to stop the private players coming in to artillery production. The fight with DRDO continues..

The pandit report is absurd at multiple levels. It seems like IA is preferring Athos over Dhanush and ATAGS. IA seems to be "clueless" about ATAGS and it sounds like it was developed on it's own by DRDO.

IA doesn't want OFB's Dhanush, but would prefer OFB manufactured Athos! :roll:

DRDO along with BF have done good PR around ATAGS. It will very difficult for IA or MoD to justify Athos over ATAGS or Dhanush.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Prem Kumar wrote:If Athos even gets trialled in 2021, then Rajnath Singh's "no-import-list" will become a joke.

If they are going to make an exception for artillery (especially when sound domestic alternatives exist), then dalals everywhere will be drooling

Its not going to happen. If ATAGS is to be cancelled or delayed. The interim solution to that will be Dhanush with 52 cal barrel. Not Athos.

OFB has presented a 52 cal mounted gun on 8*8 chassis based on FH 77.

The same barrel will be integrated with the FH77 Carriage and inducted in service. Come what may Athos will not be ordered.

The entry into force for arty ban is more concerned with the on going K9 and M 777 purchases and not Athos.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

sum wrote: Weren't "summer trials" already done and "winter trials" supposed to be the last step?

So, now it all circles back to level 0?
The trial results are valid for six months. So by the time winter trials finish, the previous summer trial results will have expired. So they will need to conduct the summer trials again in May, followed by Monsoon trials. After which the winter trial results will have expired, necessitating a retest.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

nam wrote:As I mentioned earlier, the story is a plant by OFB with probably some babus in the MoD to stop the private players coming in to artillery production. The fight with DRDO continues..

The pandit report is absurd at multiple levels. It seems like IA is preferring Athos over Dhanush and ATAGS. IA seems to be "clueless" about ATAGS and it sounds like it was developed on it's own by DRDO.

IA doesn't want OFB's Dhanush, but would prefer OFB manufactured Athos! :roll:

DRDO along with BF have done good PR around ATAGS. It will very difficult for IA or MoD to justify Athos over ATAGS or Dhanush.
isnt dhanush IA baby by Gen P. Shankar. He was very optimistic about dhanush but not so much in recent past about ATAGS and mentioned on twitter that it was under test. There are other concerns about cost. But give then firepower and capability ATAGS offers it is worth the price tag.
Few suggestions to stall import
1. A fake complaint that ATHOS has commission. It would find resonance with those who were shelled heavily by an old gun
2. Sell the IP to Rafael :mrgreen:, the country would learn difference Rafale adn rafael. Else teh old chowkidar chor hai would make enough noise for the govt to double down on it.
3. Else wait for MoD to follow the DPP to the t. issue multi vendor tender and wait till ATAGS and others are already in full scale production

read it before pest-e-shahadat on twitter that these guns have been tested more than engineering students.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/1340135498182844418?s=20 ---> ATAGS (Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System) Howitzer gun firing at the Balasore test-firing range in Odisha. "It is the best gun in the world, no other county has been able to develop such a gun system," says Shailendra Gade, ATAGS Project Director, DRDO.

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A Deshmukh
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by A Deshmukh »

Why is ATACGs being tested at Balasore?
Hasn't it been already tested at Rajasthan (hot weather) and Sikkim (Cold weather)?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

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shaun
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by shaun »

ramana wrote:
shaun wrote:Both Godrej and EEL producing pinaka rockets apart from OFB , enhanced and guided pinaka seems to be same , if range and accuracy is taken into consideration

https://twitter.com/KUNALBI25146617/sta ... 45957?s=08
shaun, there is confusion in the above article on enhanced vs guided Pinaka.

Enhanced has range increment and dispersion is 1.5% of range. So at 40 km its CEP is (1.5/100)*40,000= 600m.
Makes it good in a volley mode only.

Guided Pinaka has longer range 0f 75 km and 10 m accuracy and 3 m with imaging seeker.
Right Sir, the chart below explains everything Courtesy DFI

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Thakur_B
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

122 ER has been in development for a good part of a decade.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

I am waiting for even smaller rockets. Motors of which are the basis of A2S rockets and shoulder launched man-portable anti-air missiles.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Even Pakis have manufactured Anza in 3 versions by thousands and even exported it. Strange to see India importing such missiles even now.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

John wrote:
niran wrote: muzzle velocity is different from initial shell velocity ISV is highest velocity achieved by a shell usually at mid barrel or there about ISV is used to caculate recoil force generation plus barrel distortion from heat and recoil,
What is the ISV data for ATAGS?
dunno saar :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

A Deshmukh wrote:Why is ATACGs being tested at Balasore?
Hasn't it been already tested at Rajasthan (hot weather) and Sikkim (Cold weather)?
arty system are live system saar, they have operative manual wihich is live too constantly grows with updates like if you use A charge need to mop clean the chamber after every X rounds fired or wait for chamber to get to X temp before loading a particular shell of a particular batch. ATAGS barrel burst necessitate rewriting whole SoP so new test batch
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

and yes, for the last time ATAGS is coming Athos ain't, why? because the one paying says so. no matter what Chandigarh lobby tries ATAGS is coming.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

niran wrote:and yes, for the last time ATAGS is coming Athos ain't, why? because the one paying says so. no matter what Chandigarh lobby tries ATAGS is coming.
Clap, clap.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Khalsa »

wait what is the chandigarh lobby ? what lab or estabilishment are we talking about at CHD ?
:)
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

niran wrote:and yes, for the last time ATAGS is coming Athos ain't, why? because the one paying says so. no matter what Chandigarh lobby tries ATAGS is coming.
Thank you. Big relief. Aap ke muh mein ghee shakar.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by la.khan »

niran wrote:and yes, for the last time ATAGS is coming Athos ain't, why? because the one paying says so. no matter what Chandigarh lobby tries ATAGS is coming.
Thank you for that emphatic assertion!

Need something like on the Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions thread too. If you have any information on Tejas Mk1/Mk1A, can you please visit that thread too?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

la.khan wrote:
niran wrote:and yes, for the last time ATAGS is coming Athos ain't, why? because the one paying says so. no matter what Chandigarh lobby tries ATAGS is coming.
Thank you for that emphatic assertion!

Need something like on the Tejas Mk.1 & Mk.1A: News & Discussions thread too. If you have any information on Tejas Mk1/Mk1A, can you please visit that thread too?
wish i had information on LCA unfortunately i have non.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 79168?s=20 ---> Kalyani 155mm/39 calibre mounted gun system (4x4 HMV).

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

One good thing about 2020 wrt to artillery is how quickly the COI came to terms after the barrel burst of ATAGS and took corrective action instead of dragging things.

Maybe they now have better expertise in such investigations.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

https://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2020/12 ... delhi.html

Shukla sahab flying Elbit gun balloon again.
One has to admire his loyalty to the companies which pay him. He was very steadfast in his support for LM during MRCA and now this. I only wish there were a few journalists in some big media houses who supported Indian interests as he does for foreigners.
Highlighting how important Tel Aviv regards an Indian order for 1,580 artillery guns, worth about Rs 20,000 crore, Israel’s ministry of defence (MoD) has written to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, pushing the award of a contract to Elbit Systems – the Israeli firm that bid lowest in an Indian global tender for towed guns.

Business Standard has reviewed the letter, which was signed last Tuesday by Brigadier General Yair Kulas, director of Sibat – the Israeli defence ministry agency in charge of defence exports. It expresses concern that no contract has been signed, even though Elbit Systems was declared the lowest bidder in March 2019 in the tender for 155 millimetre, 52 calibre guns. In July 2019, Elbit successfully concluded price negotiations with India’s MoD.

“(W)e would kindly request your guidance regarding the status of the approval process and the anticipated/planned timeline for the conclusion of the approval process”, writes Sibat.

As Business Standard earlier reported (December 10, Israeli firm Elbit offers to build 70% of artillery gun in India) Elbit priced its Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System (ATHOS) gun 40 per cent cheaper than the rival offering from French firm, Nexter.

Elbit quoted €477 million for 400 fully-built ATHOS guns, while Nexter quoted €776 million, say Indian MoD sources. That puts the cost of each ATHOS gun at €1.2 million (~10.7 crore), significantly cheaper than the €1.94 million (~17.3 crore) price of each Nexter gun.

However, Elbit’s main sales pitch is not low cost, but a high degree of indigenisation. The Indian tender requires the first 400 guns to be supplied fully built or in kits, with no indigenisation requirements. The remaining 1,180 guns are required to be built by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), with at least 50 per cent indigenous content.


On October 14, Elbit provided a written commitment that it would indigenise production to the extent of 70 per cent, including the first 400 guns.


.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Has MOD ever considered the cost variation due to exchange rate fluctuations for the imported content of license produced items or for that matter the % of license fee paid for the cost of total production.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Plus , Indian CAPEX , ideally Import should come at 25% cost given future capabilities and maintenance, R&D know how etc. But things in India are upside down. We are the only Country's which wants the domestic alternative to be cheaper.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

https://twitter.com/JaidevJamwal/status ... 7591424001
Live fire trials of Excalibur guided artillery shells.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

jamwal wrote:https://twitter.com/JaidevJamwal/status ... 7591424001
Live fire trials of Excalibur guided artillery shells.


Looks like guidance with a proximity fuze in some cases. And contact/delay in others for penetration.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by brar_w »

You can see the proximity fuze being used for the 70 km Excalibur demo as well.

https://youtu.be/Oyb_eyxce6E
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... 96264?s=20 ---> Kalyani Garuda V2 105x37mm Mounted artillery gun system with soft recoil technology.

* Weight: <1 ton
* Successfully test fired in India and USA
* Adaptable for fitment on any in-service light vehicle
* Shoot and scoot capability
* Lower maintenance cost

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Would be interesting to see if Bharat Forge will make a Mounted system of its 52 caliber ULH I am sure they will be able to mount it on a light 6X6. Will be really Kick Ass for our Army.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by darshhan »

Vips wrote:Would be interesting to see if Bharat Forge will make a Mounted system of its 52 caliber ULH I am sure they will be able to mount it on a light 6X6. Will be really Kick Ass for our Army.

But military procurement officers feel shy in negotiating their commission amount with Indian Vendors. Hence no orders will be placed on Bharat Forge.

Resolving this problem is a bigger challenge than any other technical and financial issue at hand.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by manjgu »

@darshan ...100% true. plus many other perks of importing...phoren trips, phoren .... etc etc
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