Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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RKumar

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by RKumar »

I am not sure why there is no punishment - anyone in the decision-making circle who supports imports over local products should be removed from such a post and deputed on the border with harsh conditions. So they become aware of the hardship of normal soldiers even they will avail the facilities but they can't fool the weather :mrgreen:
VinodTK
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »



According to the person Indian army wants 800 truck mounted 155/ 52 caliber guns
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Maria »

RKumar wrote:I am not sure why there is no punishment - anyone in the decision-making circle who supports imports over local products should be removed from such a post and deputed on the border with harsh conditions. So they become aware of the hardship of normal soldiers even they will avail the facilities but they can't fool the weather :mrgreen:
+108
ashishvikas
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ashishvikas »

We are proud to share that #ATAGS has successfully completed trials in the highest altitude with harshest conditions. This would not have been possible without our partners. We express our gratitude to #DRDO for guidance and faith in manifesting this achievement into reality.

https://t.co/BwM7OcKDTN

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ashishvikas
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ashishvikas »

Army plans to buy 2,000 gun-towing vehicles to move medium guns on hilly & desert terrain
The vehicles will replace the Kraz and Scania GTVs that are in use for the Russian-era 130 mm towed field guns and the Swedish Bofors guns respectively.

The vehicles, it states, will be used to carry 155mm towed guns weighing upto 20 tonnes, carry gun stores, ammunition and gun crew on metalled roads, tracks and cross country in plains, deserts, semi-deserts, mountains and high altitude areas.

The requirements sought by the Army for the vehicles include a capability to operate across terrains with a payload of 8,000 kg or more with a gun in tow weighing upto 20 tonnes.
https://theprint.in/defence/army-plans- ... in/683329/
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

ashishvikas wrote:Army plans to buy 2,000 gun-towing vehicles to move medium guns on hilly & desert terrain
The vehicles will replace the Kraz and Scania GTVs that are in use for the Russian-era 130 mm towed field guns and the Swedish Bofors guns respectively.

The vehicles, it states, will be used to carry 155mm towed guns weighing upto 20 tonnes, carry gun stores, ammunition and gun crew on metalled roads, tracks and cross country in plains, deserts, semi-deserts, mountains and high altitude areas.

The requirements sought by the Army for the vehicles include a capability to operate across terrains with a payload of 8,000 kg or more with a gun in tow weighing upto 20 tonnes.
https://theprint.in/defence/army-plans- ... in/683329/
I had initially thought that AL FAT would receive a repeat order. The vehicle can be fitted with a 450 BHP engine as well.

Let's see, what happens. And with a requirement to tow upto 20 tons makes me optimistic about ATAGS order as well. Because if the FAT can drive to the battlefield with its weight and on board payload. Then ATAGS can also be towed to the battlefield. The concerns about weight no longer hold true.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ashishvikas »

AL FAT 6x6 can tow upto 10 tons only. Do we have anything else from AL & TATA ?

It would be shame if it go down to import.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Some reports suggest Tata and BEML will be giving their proposals. BEML with Tatra 6x6 truck and Tata with 450 HP 6x6 version. I would assume that Al would also not loose the opportunity for 2,000 FAT order and will make an offer with a 450 HP engine version that can tow 20 tons of load.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Nikhil_Naya »

I think the Tata 6X6 has a 20 ton tow capability with 8500 kg payload capacity (internal). The best would be to split the order between Tata and AL, giving the home grown brigade a good opportunity overall.
If you have ever been to Sikkim the roads have a lot of sharp U-turns and corkscrew turns (where sometimes only SWB buses dare) - if they were able to tow the ATAGS up there, it will be easy to deploy this anywhere in India.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

As per the reports above, ATAGS traversed 500Kms+ during its high altitude winter trials. The travelling was also done during night time. This means that all arguments with regards to weight and mobility of the system should be out of the window. The roads in Sikkim and AP are amongst the most difficult to traverse. Much more than in places like Ladakh. If ATAGS could negotiate the roads in Sikkim, then it is good to go anywhere else.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^
Vested interests will find some issues to make sure it will go for another round of trials.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

On the one hand, we just moved 50K troops to the China border.

On the other, we are dragging our feet on ATAGS, didn't order more of K-9 & the LCH is still awaiting orders.

How are our troops going to fight against the much better armed & mechanized enemy? Are we just going to count on our Bihar-like braves to duke it out all the time?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

^^+108! Perhaps we should let the Purchase Divisions/Depts be the frontlines.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »



On the other, we are dragging our feet on ATAGS, didn't order more of K-9 & the LCH is still awaiting orders.

Add to that M777 which Mahindra Defense had tied up with BAE. No further orders. ULH made for mountain warfare paired together with with more chinooks. Maybe the joint theater commands will address some of the ad-hoc piecemeal acquisitions.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Still no MGS. This will bite us big time.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by darshhan »

Vayutuvan wrote:
Quantify or else "a lot" means nothing. A lot of them are corrupt a lot/some times and a lot/some money is involved. An army wouldn't be performing as well as it had if the corruption is "so much".
If you believe our army is performing well, then I am afraid we are not on the same page. I hope you are right though. I on the other hand have a more mixed opinion of our Army. Besides how do we even evaluate their performance when the last full fledged war fought by them took place about half a century back. IMO, they should be praised only when they fight in a new Conventional war and come out Victorius there.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

We lose 600+ of our best men in a shitty conflict like kargil. 100s die every year in CI operations in our own controlled territories and we still can't destroy terrorism infrastructure even after decades of bloodshed. 100s die in a crappy Bluestar, dozens in Mumbai attack, Maoists attacks and more.

Pray how can anyone claim this army well trained or well equipped or uses great tactics? I am ignoring corruption and arms procurement drama.
I have huge respect for servicemen and I know that a vast majority of them try to do their jobs in the best way they can but such claims that armed forces are doing well or are best are delusional.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by darshhan »

jamwal wrote:We lose 600+ of our best men in a shitty conflict like kargil. 100s die every year in CI operations in our own controlled territories and we still can't destroy terrorism infrastructure even after decades of bloodshed. 100s die in a crappy Bluestar, dozens in Mumbai attack, Maoists attacks and more.

Pray how can anyone claim this army well trained or well equipped or uses great tactics? I am ignoring corruption and arms procurement drama.
I have huge respect for servicemen and I know that a vast majority of them try to do their jobs in the best way they can but such claims that armed forces are doing well or are best are delusional.
Exactly. IA was actually doing ww2 style frontal charges in Kargil and touting that as battlefield prowess. The truth is that Kargil only highlighted obsolence, inability to conduct joint operations and lack of imagination on Army's part. The only saving grace was the conduct of junior leadership(colonels and below) along with the sheer courage of our jawans that saved the day for us. Ideally the Generals should have been court martialled.

On top of it they think that doing job of J&K police and BSF gives them great battlefield experience. Mark my words in the next conflict again many young guys will die needlessly because of the incompetence and malfeasance on the part of senior Army leadership. Now I am not that stickler for human life nor do I hold the western viewpoint that all human life is sacred. Warriors have always fallen in Battlefield and will continue to die. If anything the future battlefield will be far more lethal for a soldier because of the rapid advancement of technologies such as loitering munitions, persistent AI enabled surveillance, Swarm etc. The survival rate will be lower than it is today. But is it fair if soldiers died because the military forgot to order requisite quantity of Artillery guns or UAVs in time?

An average army general today would be huffing and puffing today just to reach China national highway 219 in Aksai chin. While General Zorawar Singh was taking a bath in Mansarovar lake like a boss in 19th century that too without any specialized cold weather or high altitude equipment. True Warrior. Lived like one and died like one. Tell me who should we admire.

Instead of playing golf and having elaborate ceremonial dinners with British era rituals, our Army should actually focus on fighting. And by fighting I mean the real wars of conquest and not substituting J&K police/CRPF/BSF.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^
CI should be completely handled by the police and paramilitary under the Home Ministry or State.

J&K
  • RR
  • BSF
  • CPRF
  • J&K Police
  • Local Police
NE
  • AR
  • BSF
  • CPRF
  • State Police
  • Local Police
Similar for Moaist issue.

Equip these CI forces properly with BPJ, small arms, medium caliber area weapons, UAVs & surveillance equipment, MPV and helicopters.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Mod Note: This is the Artillery thread. Not the posting random rants about the Army thread. Further OT posts will invite warnings.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Maria »

darshhan wrote:
jamwal wrote:....

Instead of playing golf and having elaborate ceremonial dinners with British era rituals, our Army should actually focus on fighting. And by fighting I mean the real wars of conquest and not substituting J&K police/CRPF/BSF.
+108 :evil:

I say purge the Army of everything British except relevant doctrines for warfighting. And since this is the Artillery thread, I kind of cringe when I see the Artillery crews doing the Arab wala double time around their guns. It makes sense for PT but not for a drill in my humble 2 cents. However, CDS General Rawat's heart is in the right place, he has already changed so much.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

All work and no play make Jack a dull boy, there should be some perks for the Army, playing golf and Polo is way of peacetime relaxation , so be it. Especially in our army where they have had to go through COIN, LOC, LAC stressful situations.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

K-9 Vajra on its way to somewhere in north.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by darshhan »

jamwal wrote:K-9 Vajra on its way to somewhere in north.
Kam se kam iska repeat order to mil jaye L&T ko.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

It was not be a repeat order for vajra. A repeat order will be too sensible s thing to do.

Abbott replacement of 180 gun's is also due. They could have been replaced along side the catapult.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

Are Abbotts still in service? Haven't even seen a picture in any exercise or movement for years now.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

jamwal wrote:Are Abbotts still in service? Haven't even seen a picture in any exercise or movement for years now.

I assume that they were still in service. As I don't quite recall having seen any news on the retirement of the vehicles.

But one way or the other. I am unable to locate news regarding these either in service or out of service.

Searching for news on this topic. I did stumble on a DRDO project to build a 105 mm SPH on the BMP hull sometime in the late 90s.

Given the age of the system, it is quite possible that they are no longer in service. But news links to substantiate the same is not available.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

In the good old days when Bhim SPH was under development, the numbers required for SPH were given as 180.
I guess a follow on order for the Vajra will be placed, but with a higher level of indigenisation and that effort might be ongoing.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

Arjun Catapult. 40 units were required but looks like nothing came off it.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

mody wrote:In the good old days when Bhim SPH was under development, the numbers required for SPH were given as 180.
I guess a follow on order for the Vajra will be placed, but with a higher level of indigenisation and that effort might be ongoing.
What for a order of 80 units? Too little for further investment.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:
jamwal wrote:Are Abbotts still in service? Haven't even seen a picture in any exercise or movement for years now.

I assume that they were still in service. As I don't quite recall having seen any news on the retirement of the vehicles.

But one way or the other. I am unable to locate news regarding these either in service or out of service.

Searching for news on this topic. I did stumble on a DRDO project to build a 105 mm SPH on the BMP hull sometime in the late 90s.

Given the age of the system, it is quite possible that they are no longer in service. But news links to substantiate the same is not available.
The Abbots were decommissioned. Glad that they were. They inherited all the problems of the Vijayantas. 100 Vajras would be more effective than 200 Abbotts
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

was weight teh only reason we abandoned Bhim? If not arjun, bhim could have packed punch..with a long range gun it might not have need to travel or cross bridges like Arjun would have required to...
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by John »

ArjunPandit wrote:was weight teh only reason we abandoned Bhim? If not arjun, bhim could have packed punch..with a long range gun it might not have need to travel or cross bridges like Arjun would have required to...
Denel was blacklisted which killed a lot of projects including license building Skyguard which would have replaced bofors 40mm even given us platform for tracked/wheeled AAA and naval CIWS.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Aaah....the much beloved blacklisting policy of the MoD. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

It was AK Antony's favourite tool as Raksha Mantri.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

srai wrote:
mody wrote:In the good old days when Bhim SPH was under development, the numbers required for SPH were given as 180.
I guess a follow on order for the Vajra will be placed, but with a higher level of indigenisation and that effort might be ongoing.
What for a order of 80 units? Too little for further investment.
Further order might be for a higher quantity than 80 nos. No confirmation for the same though.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

Blacklisting was Congress's method of CBM's with TSP and Chicom (and God knows who else), to keep India shackled. Bofors was not picked for license production, nor was HDW (in spite of paying for it and receiving the ToT). The list of such items is enormous. It is trying to do same in while being in opposition. Somehow stop Rfale when China is going ahead with stealth planes and also making one for the export market (read Tsp).
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Barath »

https://alphadefense.in/improved-atags/

Claims that ATAGS is to be modified to change gun laying mechanism from electric drive to hydraulic drive.

It's rather stream of consciousness to read.

For some background
ATAGS consists of duel [Sic] power system where hydraulics is used for mobility and gun In/out action whereas electrical power is used for Gun laying and Ammunition Handling System. The system is configured with an all- electric drive that will ensure maintenance free and reliable operation over
Presumably the ammo handling will still be electric


Summarizing, Hydraulic drive requires more (but simpler) maintenance, cannot be digitized as easily, and has potential to be lighter and more efficient (if you assume a single hydraulic pump can be used for multiple drives). The capital cost may be a bit less, but the total cost including service and operation may go up.

The article also points out that comparing ATAGS and ATHOS cost, is comparing a cost in prototype of ATAGS with tax/GST against production (import) cost without tax, so the difference is likely to be significantly smaller.

This modification will also lead to inevitable delay and need for re-qualification of the gun.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Why did the gun have the systems it did. Was it because DRDO people didn't care about the army's inputs.

Or is it because the army asked for it and now they are refusing to accept the end result.

Sure would be nice to know.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

So if the above report is true, there will be a delay in the ATAGS guns availability due to the re-trials, which will leave the opportunity for buying 400 Athos guns from Israel/Kalyani for "immediate requirement". :roll:
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