Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

If OFB can supply to UAE. Why not?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/raflanker/status/15 ... PDP5Sg2iYw ---> Two types of ammunition table are seen on ATAGS.

Top: Kalyani variant with linear ammunition table (6 shell)

Bottom: TATA variant with revolver ammunition table (5 shell)

Image

Image
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Looking at the pictures. I would call both the systems conveyor belts. The kalyani one is skinny. The Tata one is chonky.

But both of those systems can be further developed by the respective companies into components for high capacity autoloader for different systems.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

Prem Kumar wrote:For the Kalyani export order, who will provide the shells? Does anyone in India make 155 mm shells other than the OFB (or) will the Kalyani gun work with any 155mm shells that have been imported/stocked by Armenia

I thought bf/Kalyani got into defense by manufacturing bigots shells during kargil ? Or have I got this wrong ??
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

No. They made quite a few shell forgings in quantity and OFB did the filling.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

We should track the Terminally Guided Munitions (TGM) program of DRDO to improve shell accuracy.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Ramana: I think this is the EOI PDF put out by the MoD for the same

https://makeinindiadefence.gov.in/admin ... c_2021.pdf
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Who is going to invest in capacity and capital to manufacture just 197 rounds per year for next 10 years.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Pratyush wrote:Who is going to invest in capacity and capital to manufacture just 197 rounds per year for next 10 years.
Looks like some duffer wrote it. Look at artillery usage in Ukraine by both sides.
The total qty is expended in one day.
Some desk walla wrote the requirement. And went to play golf.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »



An interview with Gen. Deepak Kapoor about the need of Indian companies in meeting the requirements of the Indian Army.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

I think currently only the OFB factory at Nalanda produces the 155mm shells for IA. The private sector will be allowed into manufacturing the arty shells soon and this would be a big boost. With Solar industries manufacturing the Pinaka rockets now, it has effectively doubled our production capacity for rocket artillery. The big push for indigenizing all the ammunition manufacturing in India, will have a very significant impact in the next few years. Looking at the Ukraine-Russia war, very few countries have the required industrial base to sustain long drawn-out conflicts and manufacture a majority of the ammunition of all the different grades that they consume.

With private sector staring to manufacture arty shells, our effective production capacity would double, with the potential to increase further in the times of emergency. Besides having multiple facilities, it would make it very difficult for the enemy to destroy our military industrial base. For example, the pakis have only 1 factory manufacturing the 155mm arty shells. The same was setup with South Korean technology and assistance.

Looking that the success of SkyRoot and the impending launch of the Agnibaan rocket by Agnikul space startup, it also gives hope that in the near future we may have private sector companies manufacturing short range ballistic and cruise missiles as well. Solar industries have already given a proposal to develop a 250 Kms range ballistic missile and maybe Bharat Forge too has made a similar proposal. Besides Bharat forge is developing small turbofan engine for cruise missiles. With private sector manufacturing guided rockets from 150 Kms to 250Kms range, we would literally be able to pummel Pakistan into submission and would be able to go toe to toe with the Chinese.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

^^^ Good interview:
- Gen. Deepak Kapoor had no good answer as to why other nations are thinking of buying Indian made guns but Indian Army has not taken placed any orders for made in India guns.

- Towards the end of the interview he did say the army should hasten the trials

Wonder why no opposition party/MP's are bringing up the question of slow trials in parlement!
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SRajesh »

Is Nirbhay fully tested and deployed
per wiki deployed limited numbers near LAC
And ITCM WITH MANK, can private players be roped to solve technical issues
Will DRDO allow
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

RSatchi, Deployments are usually classified. We should respect that.
We are not a newbie youtube channel.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

One gripe is that accuracy at long range is taking a hit for ATAGS!
The boy wonders want the same accuracy at 45km as at 20km.
I don't know what is the dispersion but DRDO had cleared the development trials and then called for user trials.
If dispersion is more than the lethal radius of the shell it needs guidance. And that adds costs from fuzes to guidance kits.
So it's a trade-off.
And the logistics folks want the same mobility for it as M-777!

They won't straigten out.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

A brief Wikipedia read of she'll CEP suggests 267 meter for the US Army's M541A1 at maximum range.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1156_Pre ... idance_Kit

The ATAGS with a substantially greater range as compared to the 39 calibre gun barrels of US Army. Can be expected to have a CEP substantially greater than the one stated above.

So your conclusion about needing PGK, if they want any degree of accuracy is completely justified.

The Indian army had ordered nearly 10000 lazer guided rounds from Russia in early 2000s and several hundred Excalibur shells recently as well.

Which tells me that the Indian army is well versed with the value of precision guided arty shells.

But th Indian army is Indian army. They are asking for 197 guided shells per year for a period of 10 years. From a domestic source.

Don't understand just what is it they are hoping to accomplish.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Anoop »



Lessons for India on use of artillery from the Russia-Ukraine war.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/15 ... MpGleBQEDw ---> In the latest episode of BattleCry, I answer a question that's been echoing for yeawrs -- with the strides being made by local industry, does India never need to import artillery again?

India Booms With Own Big Guns | Watch This & More On Battle Cry With Shiv Aroor

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

Is IA looking for sniper artillery? 1 shot 1 kill..we also need to consider that artillery fire itself has a impact on enemy plans..accuracy or not
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

ArjunPandit wrote:Is IA looking for sniper artillery? 1 shot 1 kill..we also need to consider that artillery fire itself has a impact on enemy plans..accuracy or not
More like an excuse to not induct the Indian-made artillery guns.

The dispersion at max range is a function of shell geometry, mass properties, wind, muzzle velocity, and the geographic location of the gun wrt the target.
All these are being minimized in ATAGS with the ballistic computers and the sensors. You still have to correct the trajectory or course of the shell.

The specs for PGK Fuze are given in the wiki link
Guidance: GPS
Accuracy:
Increment I: < 50 m circular error probable (CEP)
Increment II: < 30 m CEP[19]
Unit cost: < $10,000[8]
Fusing options: Point detonating or proximity airburst[10]
The requirement of 50m CEP is due to 155 mm shell lethality is 50m. That means its used against area targets. Getting better precision requires even better guidance.
Let us look at the Fusing options.
Proximity airburst again shows intent is to use against area targets. The point detonating option is to ensure no dud shells which are an unexploded ordnance nuisance and if there is a lucky hit.
Our artillery folks want every shell to have point target capability.
Also complaining about the max range begs the question that the rest of the targets are well at risk!!!

This is like demanding every Pandava is like an Arjuna.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

If we have a cannon launched missile, then perhaps an artillery launched missile is next. Gerald bull was trying to launched satellites through cannon. coming back to the point, at some point a simple calculus of launching few 100 shells of 1000 vs a single shell costing 100,000. If only Ukraine war has reaffirmed anything, that is sustained artillery usage.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by KSingh »

ramana wrote:One gripe is that accuracy at long range is taking a hit for ATAGS!
The boy wonders want the same accuracy at 45km as at 20km.
I don't know what is the dispersion but DRDO had cleared the development trials and then called for user trials.
If dispersion is more than the lethal radius of the shell it needs guidance. And that adds costs from fuzes to guidance kits.
So it's a trade-off.
And the logistics folks want the same mobility for it as M-777!

They won't straigten out.
I absolutely knew these games were going to begin as soon as the negative import list was announced

Too many stand to lose too much should India go the US way and procure 95% of its military system from domestic companies


Notice today the Indian army COAS on a trip to France was shown around a Nexter Caesar just as the DRDO-Kaylani MGS is unveiled. The game never ends

Next we will hear that the 8x8 DRDO MGS isn’t suitable because of strategic mobility concerns and they need the 6X6 Caesar option. Watch.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

ArjunPandit wrote:If we have a cannon launched missile, then perhaps an artillery launched missile is next. Gerald bull was trying to launched satellites through cannon. coming back to the point, at some point a simple calculus of launching few 100 shells of 1000 vs a single shell costing 100,000. If only Ukraine war has reaffirmed anything, that is sustained artillery usage.
The PGK and similar systems turn a standard shell into a missile.

If the objective is to engage everything with precision strikes. Then a NLOS missile system is a more cost effective solution.

Because any GPS guided or lazer guided 155 mm shell will cost nearly the same as a NLOS missile system. In order to shoot that she'll you need to train a crew of 5 to 10 men, procure the 155 mm gun and the FAT to move the gun to the firing position.

All the above costs money.

Whereas an NLOS missile if executed the same way as spike NLOS will use a light duty 4*4. Costing a fraction of a FAT. The launch mechanism will be a fraction of the cost of the towed 155 mm gun. The crew is just going to be limited to 2.

Or it can be executed the way the US army attempted to do. In which case, the system is independent of the vehicle. It can either be tied to the bed of any old 5 ton truck to be driven to the target area and fired. Or Mounted on the ground operating alone. Gets instructions for launch from the command and fired.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Pratyush wrote:Who is going to invest in capacity and capital to manufacture just 197 rounds per year for next 10 years.
This is likely to be the brain-child of a bureaucrat

Assuming the shell life to be 5-10 years, we should be making minimum 25,000 - 50,000 shell per year

My humble opinion
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Kersi »

Pratyush wrote:Who is going to invest in capacity and capital to manufacture just 197 rounds per year for next 10 years.
Newbie question

Can we have production lines whihc can make more that 1 type (size) of shells ?

Example the same line can make 155 mm for arty, 120/125 mm for tank guns, 105 mm for IFG, 100/127 mm for Navy
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

In the same factory yes, but not line as that will mean changing tooling, etc.
And artillery shells get consumed a lot.
What these geniuses want is the guidance kits for a standard shell. And they don't see any need for more than 200/year.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

From Defence Cafe
(MAG-ER) Mountain Artillery Gun-Extended Range Developed by Kalyani Strategic Systems
The gun can fire 12 rounds in 3 minutes in an explosive burst, and 42 shots in 60 minutes in a continuous burst.The gun has a digital fire control, and KSSL claims that it may be used in high mountainous terrain.

Manager at KSSL Rahul Bhilare informed Janes that the Indian Army is conducting proof-firing trials of the MAG-ER and that the business is anticipating an order from the service soon.

The KSSL also created the Bharat 52 artillery, which has a weight of about 15 tonnes.
The gun fires all NATO-standard and in-service ammunition, according to the KSSL.
The Bharat 52 is outfitted with a steer-by-wire control system for self-propelled mode and an automatic ammunition load-assist system.

According to KSSL, MAG-ER weighs less than 8 tons and has a firing range of 41 km. The howitzer operates at an elevation of 3°–72°. The speed of MAG-ER is 60 km/h in towing condition on blacktop and 24 km/h in cross-country terrains.

The gun can fire 12 rounds in 3 minutes in an explosive burst, and 42 shots in 60 minutes in a continuous burst. The gun has a digital fire control, and KSSL claims that it may be used in high mountainous terrain.

Manager at KSSL Rahul Bhilare informed Janes that the Indian Army is conducting proof-firing trials of the MAG-ER and that the business is anticipating an order from the service soon.


The KSSL also created the Bharat 52 artillery, which has a weight of about 15 tonnes. The gun fires all NATO-standard and in-service ammunition, according to the KSSL.

The Bharat 52 is outfitted with a steer-by-wire control system for self-propelled mode and an automatic ammunition load-assist system.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Some info about the M-777 gun barrels.

...The Pentagon has sent 142 M777 howitzers to Ukraine, enough to outfit about eight battalions, the most recent tally of U.S. military aid to Ukraine shows. Ukrainian troops have used them to attack enemy troops with volleys of 155-millimeter shells, to target command posts with small numbers of precision-guided rounds and even to lay small antitank minefields....

The United States has shipped hundreds of thousands of rounds of 155-millimeter ammunition for Ukraine to fire in the largest barrages on the European continent since World War II and has committed to providing nearly a million of the shells in all from its own inventory and private industry.

Ukrainian forces have also received 155-millimeter shells from countries besides the United States. Some of those shells and propellant charges had not been tested for use in certain howitzers, and the Ukrainian soldiers have found out in combat that some of them can wear out barrels more quickly, according to U.S. military officials.

After the damaged howitzers arrive in Poland, maintenance crews can change out the barrels and make other repairs. Ukrainian officials have said they would like to bring those maintenance sites closer to the frontlines so that the guns can be returned to combat sooner, the U.S. officials and other people said...

Currently, Ukrainian forces are firing 2,000 to 4,000 artillery shells a day, a number frequently outmatched by the Russians. Over time, that pace has caused problems for Ukrainian soldiers using M777 howitzers, such as shells not traveling as far or as accurately.

Some of the issues can be traced, in part, to the howitzer’s design. :?: Built largely with titanium, which is lighter than steel but just as strong, the weapon is easier to move on the battlefield and quicker to set up than earlier guns — a clear advantage for the United States when it began using the M777 in Iraq and Afghanistan in the early 2000s.

In those wars, unlike in Ukraine, the M777 was generally used to fire small numbers of shells in support of troops.


The United States did, however, get a glimpse of what might happen to Ukraine’s M777 howitzers five years ago, during the campaign to defeat the Islamic State.

In 2017, a Marine artillery battery from Camp Lejeune deployed to Syria with four M777 guns and fired more than 23,000 rounds of 155-millimeter ammunition in five months of supporting combat operations in Raqqa — nearly 55 times what a typical battery of that size would normally fire in a year of peacetime training.

As a result, three of the battery’s howitzers had to be removed because of excessive wear over the course of that deployment and were replaced with guns held in reserve in Kuwait.


{23000/55 =~418 shells per normal wear and tear. During M 777 testing IA fired 1135 (i.e. ~2.7 times normal and wondered why the shells 'exited in many pieces' and blamed OFB shells as usual. Barrel wear increases the clearance between the shell and bore and increases the balloting leading to a premature explosion.}

When one of the howitzers went down, the others simply fired more, an option the Ukrainians are forced to choose daily.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Thanks, Ramana,

So nothing really out of the ordinary with regards to the M777.

Use the weapon out of spec and you will have problems. Even the ATAGS would have some SOP's right.

Regards
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Some things to understand from engineering point of view.
Barrel wear is due to erosion and corrosion. Latter is chemical in nature from the gases and is not significant.
Erosion wear is function of number of rounds fired, barrel material hardness and charge. Longer barrels have higher charge and shell travels longer. Add to this modern conflict needs higher artillery coverage. So will have issues.

If you recall I wanted eight gun batteries to add to the volume of fire instead of the six gun batteries.

Kargil and Ukraine operations show artillery usage will be high.
Even USMC ops in West Asia show same issues.
Something for the USI Journal to think about and not write fatuous articles on strategy.
No one wants to write about operational requirements.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

DRDO can help the IA by developing a blank shell loaded with strain gages and acclerometers and recover them after firing. Other such instrumented shells can have additional RLGs to get trajectory data. Instead of transmitting just collect the data on a bank of SIM cards.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Noted sir.

You must have been an artillery man in your previous life!!!

Thanks for the explanation and information.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by vonkabra »

https://defencecafe.com/defence/testing ... uccessful/

So ATAGS tests are successful but next round of tests will start in May?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Look at the bright side. They are expecting RFP to arrive by June.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

ramana wrote:DRDO can help the IA by developing a blank shell loaded with strain gages and acclerometers and recover them after firing. Other such instrumented shells can have additional RLGs to get trajectory data. Instead of transmitting just collect the data on a bank of SIM cards.
During the recent DefExpo a startup company had displayed a barrel cleaning robot. Specifically designed for artillery barrels, it uses IA and all kinds of instruments to clean the barrel and at the same time inspect the barrel for wear and any other defects.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by suryag »

^^^ this is awesome, they can easily detect cracks or any other deformation/abnormality. At some point of time we had designed a similar thing for NDE(eddy current/ultrasound/laser based sensors) of cooling circuits in nuclear reactors.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

Pratyush wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:If we have a cannon launched missile, then perhaps an artillery launched missile is next. Gerald bull was trying to launched satellites through cannon. coming back to the point, at some point a simple calculus of launching few 100 shells of 1000 vs a single shell costing 100,000. If only Ukraine war has reaffirmed anything, that is sustained artillery usage.
The PGK and similar systems turn a standard shell into a missile.

If the objective is to engage everything with precision strikes. Then a NLOS missile system is a more cost effective solution.

Because any GPS guided or lazer guided 155 mm shell will cost nearly the same as a NLOS missile system. In order to shoot that she'll you need to train a crew of 5 to 10 men, procure the 155 mm gun and the FAT to move the gun to the firing position.

All the above costs money.

Whereas an NLOS missile if executed the same way as spike NLOS will use a light duty 4*4. Costing a fraction of a FAT. The launch mechanism will be a fraction of the cost of the towed 155 mm gun. The crew is just going to be limited to 2.

Or it can be executed the way the US army attempted to do. In which case, the system is independent of the vehicle. It can either be tied to the bed of any old 5 ton truck to be driven to the target area and fired. Or Mounted on the ground operating alone. Gets instructions for launch from the command and fired.
how much explosives in NCLOS and 155mm arty shell?
what is the range?
NLOS isfire once and throw launcher arty tubes on average fire 18000 shells before barrel change
get the picture? let kitchen knife stay in kitchen and axe out in yard. Don't interchange the places
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

1) the life of a 155 mm gun barrel is not 18000 rounds that you think. JBMOU 70 had specified an EFC of 2500 shots per barrel.

2) my advocacy for NLOS missile type is on the basis of the area's where the Indian army had to operate and the logistics difficulty it is going to face.

That being said. The NLOS missile system can have either an Anti tank warhead which will be good enough for most field fortifications. In which case the all up weight of the missile will be under 100 kg. For a range of upto 100 kms.

Or a larger missile with a! warhead weight of 50 kg and the missile will have an all up weight of under 250 kgs.
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