Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Rakesh
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/defence_in/status/1 ... 35427?s=20 ---> The ramjet powered artillery shell developed by IIT Madras.

Courtesy: Haldi Billa-DFI.

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ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

What's the progress on this project?
Thakur_B
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

From the schematic, it appears that the explosive quantity is not even a quarter of regular shell, which means it will have to be extremely precise. If the guidance unit is in the tip then it would be delivering explosive not much more than a large ATGM.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

The Finnish defence manufacturer Nammo is working on something similar and have done development trials. Not sure how far they are away from a deployable weapon.

Seems like the U.S is going down the path of longer barrel + rocket assisted artillery to achieve twice the range.

Rocket-assisted seems to be a lower risk (interim) path, while Ramjet + Guidance is bleeding edge

Guidance is something they may want to independently experiment on an existing 155 mm shell itself to understand its working, shock/high-g stress testing etc. Achieving high accuracy on existing (or newly developed regular 155 mm shells) itself will be a massive force multiplier
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/amanroutray7/status ... 67072?s=20 ---> Apparently this was the reason for change of electrical drive to hydraulic drive in ATAGS: Hydraulic assisted manual drive for elevation & traverse of 155mm x 52 system for ATAGS uses hydraulic advantage to multiply torque at high RPM and consists of the following components;

1. Hydraulic Rotary Actuator
2. Electro Hydraulic power pack
3. Oil tank
4. Hand manual hydraulic rotary pump
5. 3-way Gear box
6. Pressure gauge
7. Pipes, fitting and hoses
8. Accessories mounting wheel trolley
9. Direction control valves
10. Hand pump

https://twitter.com/amanroutray7/status ... 15938?s=20 ---> There are two modes of operation one using the hydraulic motor or the slow operation and the fast using accumulator. In slow operation the rotary pump is used to pump hydraulic fluid to the rotary actuator through directional control valve.

https://twitter.com/amanroutray7/status ... 31043?s=20 ---> And in the fast operation accumulator will be used to pump the fluid. The accumulator will be recharged using the hand pumps.

https://twitter.com/amanroutray7/status ... 53413?s=20 ---> For some context:

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Rakesh
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/amanroutray7/status ... 67072?s=20 ---> Apparently this was the reason for change of electrical drive to hydraulic drive in ATAGS...
Commodore Jaideep Maolankar (retd) replies to the tweet above...

https://twitter.com/JA_Maolankar/status ... 35840?s=20 ---> Then why specify electric drive in the first place? Something so fundamental is to be debated, frozen and “endorsed” by all including the end user at Preliminary Design Review stage. Did insurmountable problems with electric drives necessitate the late change?

https://twitter.com/amanroutray7/status ... 38978?s=20 ---> Sir, only Indian Army and ARDE can answer this question. They are conducting a new set of PSQR trials.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/amanroutray7/status ... 67072?s=20 ---> Apparently this was the reason for change of electrical drive to hydraulic drive in ATAGS...
Another veteran (this time from the Armoured Corps) chimes in.

https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... 65376?s=20 --> This is an flawed assessment. Hydraulic drives as compared to electric drives are more voluminous, have greater weight and are more prone to effects and wear of climatic conditions. They require more maint and are more defect prone.

https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... 54816?s=20 ---> In extreme cold, the oil becomes thicker and in hot conditions it loses viscosity. Adversely affecting him laying. It is also more prone to fire. Switching from electric drive to hydraulic drive for ATAGS is a retrograde step. It is unnecessarily delaying induction of the gun.

https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... 23906?s=20 ---> Modern tanks and arty gun designers are switching over to electric drives in their systems. We seem to be intent on re designing the wheel. I hope it is not yet another Arjun-like construct. Keep changing the goal posts.

https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... 39264?s=20 ---> What was the artillery brigade doing when the gun was being designed and fundamental decisions being taken? Where is accountability?

https://twitter.com/rathorekaran17/stat ... 54818?s=20 ---> User must be involved in the project from Day 1 and be a party to the decisions. The old construct of issuing a QR and sitting back has not worked. On the other hand, navy project teams have been integrated in the design process and we've launched our third nuclear sub. Spot the difference.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by sum »

After seeing the saga of a brain dead/zero to think about purchase like ATAGs being stalled by usual IA shenanigans, I have 0 hope of any improvement ever happening in the IA procurement procedures, esp when it comes to indigenous stuff
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

User team keeps changing. There is never any acknowledgment of incorrect requirements. Always after the product is developed the objections come and blame the designer without revealing own role in drafting the requirement in the first place.
Electric drive has fewer elements to break down and the system is more responsive.
So why IA insists on reverting after the product is developed.
Why not induct 500 guns with the electric drive and let the hydraulic drive come as retro fit.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

sum wrote:After seeing the saga of a brain dead/zero to think about purchase like ATAGs being stalled by usual IA shenanigans, I have 0 hope of any improvement ever happening in the IA procurement procedures, esp when it comes to indigenous stuff
Come on dont give up on our Bureaucrats and the corrupt procurement system. All Kalyani and TATA have to do is deploy the Natasha brigade and deposit $$ in some overseas accounts for Made in India to be encouraged.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by S_Madhukar »

Explains why we struggled with artillery for the past few centuries. It has taken us a while to move from elephants to guns ... or has it ? Didn’t learn from the Turks nor Europeans... can’t blame industry now... I won’t be surprised if the next requirements ask for the hydraulics to run on 100% red/blue label or is it vodka again !
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Vips wrote:
sum wrote:After seeing the saga of a brain dead/zero to think about purchase like ATAGs being stalled by usual IA shenanigans, I have 0 hope of any improvement ever happening in the IA procurement procedures, esp when it comes to indigenous stuff
Come on dont give up on our Bureaucrats and the corrupt procurement system. All Kalyani and TATA have to do is deploy the Natasha brigade and deposit $$ in some overseas accounts for Made in India to be encouraged.
And allow FCRA to channel the funds into babu family-owned NGOs.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Not just the babus. The rot seems to be deep in the services too, especially at the artillery and armor decision-making level.

After all, it wasn't a babu who asked for a hydraulic drive after 700 Km of trials in the mountains. And it wasn't babus who scuttled the Arjun.

Such people's mindsets cannot be changed & they aren't going to willingly give up on a gravy train. Serious personnel changes need to happen at all levels, including promotions, sidelining those who don't ideologically align, vigilance cases against the corrupt and careful appointments. Trimming the edges won't cut it.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Good article by LtGen PR Shankar on artillery shells and need for precision and tradeoff wrt cost

https://www.gunnersshot.com/2022/01/art ... e.html?m=1

Do read the other parts.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

Ramjet propelled Artillery shell by IIT-Madras

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SILZMNCpXPw
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 29442?s=20 ---> Indian Army and ARDE will begin the firing trials (PSQR) of 155/52 Caliber Gun System (ATAGS) in these locations: PFFR Pokharan, SFFR Sikkim, PXE, Balasore, VRDE Ahmednagar and ARDE Ranges.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by sum »

:rotfl: :rotfl:
Really turned this whole thing into a circus
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SRajesh »

These tests reminds of Hindi Channels news few years ago : Kangaaroooanke Ghar me gusske marenge!!
These tests will go on until: Chini ke ghar me gusskar marenge!! Tab tak test hote rahenge!!! :rotfl:
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 29442?s=20 ---> Indian Army and ARDE will begin the firing trials (PSQR) of 155/52 Caliber Gun System (ATAGS) in these locations: PFFR Pokharan, SFFR Sikkim, PXE, Balasore, VRDE Ahmednagar and ARDE Ranges.
at least better than sequential
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Moon not required?
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:Moon not required?
Don't give them any ideas.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by arvin »

Maybe in pipeline for ramjet artillery trial.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Manish_P »

ArjunPandit wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 29442?s=20 ---> Indian Army and ARDE will begin the firing trials (PSQR) of 155/52 Caliber Gun System (ATAGS) in these locations: PFFR Pokharan, SFFR Sikkim, PXE, Balasore, VRDE Ahmednagar and ARDE Ranges.
at least better than sequential
It is not explicitly specified so, but one can hope..
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

So has the drive been changed from Electric to Hydraulic?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

ATHOS is GONE! :lol:

https://twitter.com/Sandeep_Mave/status ... 60932?s=20 ----> Additional P-8I, MiG-29, ATHOS, UAVs, etc deal cancelled
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Thakur_B wrote:So has the drive been changed from Electric to Hydraulic?
That will be taking a step backwards, it was probably a ploy to get Athos in.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 29442?s=20 ---> Indian Army and ARDE will begin the firing trials (PSQR) of 155/52 Caliber Gun System (ATAGS) in these locations: PFFR Pokharan, SFFR Sikkim, PXE, Balasore, VRDE Ahmednagar and ARDE Ranges.
Probably the hydraulic system (which replaced the electric drive) will leak in the desert and freeze up in the mountains and therefore we need imports.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

I dont they have had time to replace electric with hydraulic, recalibrate everything, certify them and make them ready for trials, so I think Electric drives stay.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote:ATHOS is GONE! :lol:

https://twitter.com/Sandeep_Mave/status ... 60932?s=20 ----> Additional P-8I, MiG-29, ATHOS, UAVs, etc deal cancelled
Athos was being procured as a part of which program?

I never understood that.

Great decision.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Anujan wrote:
Probably the hydraulic system (which replaced the electric drive) will leak in the desert and freeze up in the mountains and therefore we need imports.
Then Dhanush 52 calibre or Bharat 52 gets bought.

No imports.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Barath »

Pratyush wrote:Athos was being procured as a part of which program?
Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, which had been drawn up in 1999 leading to a competive RFP for towed howitzers in 2013 that was awarded in 2019 when Athos+OFB won it over Nexter +L&T
The process for acquiring 155mm/52-cal towed howitzers and MGS began in 2001 as part of the IA’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan, which had been drawn up in 1999. Multiple requests for proposal (RFP) were issued, starting with the first in February 2002. Nearly 14 years ago, the MoD had cleared the proposal for a 155mm/52-cal towed howitzers under the ‘Buy and Make’ category.
The last RFP was issued in june 2013, and was awarded in 2019. It was for 1580 guns, 400 to be supplied directly and 1180 to be produced locally after ToT. Elbit and OFB combo won that, with a pretty low cost
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Bharath, thanks.

However, I still have some issues with the whole affair.

If you troll through the internet news for the last 3 years. You will see that Athos was pushed in association with Bharat forge and Punj Lloyd at different times. OFB association seems to have fallen by the wayside.

But the gun itself remained a constant. Alomost as if it was too big to fail.

But finally the cancellation of the procurement is a good first step.

The MOD needs to whip the relevant parties in shape and get Dhanush or ATAGS procurement and production going.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ManuJ »

I see several tweets listing canceled imports, but no official statement.
Does anyone have a link to the relevant GOI statement/press release?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Karan M »

No statement AFAIK but i suspect GOI got fed up of how emergency procurement was being used for mostly imports while desi kit wasn't being ordered via the same.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Yep. And it also means that the RM by himself wasn't able to curb this. So, the CDS, PM and RM sat down and a full court press was done.

I just hope this doesn't become a one-off cancellation but gets codified as broad strokes in the next version of the "No-Imports list"
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/GODOFPARADOXES/stat ... 74368?s=20 ---> Swathi weapon locating radar (WLR). It is a 2 vehicle system mounted on 8x8 HMV (2nd vehicle is for power supply cum BITE).

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

..13 guns in one frame!!
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 71584?s=20 ---> Backup Sighting System for ATAGS. It is used for indirect fire as a backup sight. These are back-up sights which are entirely optomechanical in design. This is required for redundancy in case of power failure/INS or any situations where gun is required to function in manual mode.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Did they ever release to Sep 2020 barrel burst Issue?
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