Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Oct 2019 00:57

MAy be you can help me find more details. But I have called construction from SKDs as screwdrivergiri consistently. Said so for Su-30s, said so for MMRCA, said so Ka-226T, said so for Hawks, said so for RAfales to be built by Reliance and most OFB products. I am not going to change it because it is a private entity.

My respect for L&T is huge, probably more than any company in India. In terms of actual RnD, they are path breaking. But, not in this case.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Oct 2019 00:58

ArjunPandit wrote:
ramana wrote: OFB is delivering the Dhanush and Sarangs as we speak.

We are seeing the results everyday on the LOC.
to me this is strong circumstantial evidence but not fully conclusive as it is hard to ascertain that hte damage is done by existing guns or the new guns..even most of news of arty duels is by twitter handles like babaji and others in wolf pack..i have been intermittently searching the news of articles of delivery...

Likely what you say by legal standards of proof.
However in such matters only indirect evidence will be there.
Consider that a bunker/sangar/machine gun post needs a direct hit.
Traditional 155mm shell CEP is 150 m.
With modern GPS and INS for siting the gun and computer for wind correction the CEP is about 50m.
Still not good enough expect fro open machine gun post as shell burst radius is large.
A PGK/CCF type fuze corrects it to 10m CEP.
Still not good enough for a rcc bunker.
You need a direct hit.

And HH/BB has tweeted many times of such bunkers being hit.
ATGM wont as the range is within sniper distance.

So for me even though its circumstantial evidence it meets most likely rather than possible.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Oct 2019 01:00

L&T is assembling the K9 and that was very clear from the contract.
if they made the barrel or any parts IA would demand extensive trials.
M777 is also assembly of first 45(?) guns and then mfg other parts.
Barrel will be imported I think.

OFB plans to shift Dhanush assemblyto OFB Medak as there is spare capacity.
barrel still from GCF, Jabalpur.
is all in these threads.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 18 Oct 2019 02:19

Curious timing - this AV report just came in toady:

Watch from 1:05, first regiment of Dhanush is now taking shape and 18 guns are on track to be delivered by December 2019.

Indigenous 155mm Dhanush Towed Gun System: ‘Desi Bofors’ to improve Indian Army’s firepower along Pakistan, China borders.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 Oct 2019 02:38

Indranil wrote:MAy be you can help me find more details. But I have called construction from SKDs as screwdrivergiri consistently. Said so for Su-30s, said so for MMRCA, said so Ka-226T, said so for Hawks, said so for RAfales to be built by Reliance and most OFB products. I am not going to change it because it is a private entity.

My respect for L&T is huge, probably more than any company in India. In terms of actual RnD, they are path breaking. But, not in this case.

Su-30 may be many things but it is most certainly not screwdrivergiri, especially not the Phase 4 units. The CKD/SKD items, sure.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 18 Oct 2019 03:25

Yes, today's Su-30 production cannot be called screwdrivergiri. Almost all weapons tests begin with Su-30.

But during SKD days, it was.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Oct 2019 04:01

You know Huma Siddique was/is a BRF member since a long time!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Oct 2019 04:06

Vips thanks for the video link.
They had a headline about Arjun Mk2 being ready?

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 18 Oct 2019 18:16

Ramanaji, i think it is an instance of wrong headlines in the AV. What was covered was a new repair facility for Arjun tanks was now ready in Jodhpur for the Arjun MBT. Confusingly also mentioned was that the 93 'improvements' suggested by the Army for Arjun were carried out and they are now raedy for trials. IIRC this was how Arjun mark I progressed to Mark II.

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 21 Oct 2019 10:01

Has there any news on the truck mounted gun of OFB. Has the trials been conducted ?

Gun-novation: Indigenous howitzer to undergo firing trials in November

Truck-mounted howitzer based on the Bofors was developed by OFB in just 16 months, but could struggle for orders since it comes at a time of plenty.

Truck-mounted howitzer to undergo its maiden firing trials in November this year
MGS developed by GCF Jabalpur was first unveiled at Defexpo this April
Designed by GCF Jabalpur, MGS builds on OFB's successful Dhanush 155x45 mm howitzer.

An indigenously designed, developed and manufactured truck mounted howitzer is to undergo its maiden firing trials in November this year.

The Mounted Gun System (MGS) developed by the Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) Jabalpur was first unveiled at the Defexpo in Chennai this April.

Senior Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) officials told India Today that the internal firing trials at the Proof Establishment in Balasore would validate not just the gun but also its integration with the 8x8 Tatra vehicle on which it is mounted.

The test of a new gun system - the fifth type in a series of Army howitzer requirement projected nearly two decades ago - comes at a time when the Army has begun receiving its first guns in over 30 years.

This year the Army will start inducting M-777 Ultra Light Howitzers and K-9 Vajra self-propelled howitzers and has received a first batch of six Dhanush howitzers, India's first indigenously developed long range howitzer, after they successfully completed firing trials in Leh and Pokhran.

Mounted Gun System developed by Gun Carriage Factory Jabalpur was first unveiled at Defexpo in Chennai this April | Photo courtesy: Sandeep Unnithan
No new artillery had been purchased since the bribery scandal that followed the March 1986 deal for 41 FH-77B Bofors howitzers.

MOUNTED GUN SYSTEM

Unlike towed artillery which have to be hauled into the battlefield by multi-wheeled trucks, MGS' are guns mounted on a high-mobility truck. These guns can be brought into battle much faster, carry 18 artillery shells on board and are useful to support mobile infantry in the plains and deserts.

The MGS has a range of over 40 km and will be offered to the Army for user trails after several rounds of internal trials.

Apart from the fact that it is Indian designed, developed and manufactured, one of the biggest advantages of our gun is its commonality of spares, functionality and training with the Army's existing Bofors and Dhanush howitzers.
- A senior OFB official told India Today
The gun has a modular design with shoot and scoot capability and can fire in all weather conditions and by day and night. It has a GPS aided Inertial Navigation System and a day and night firing capability.

It carries a backup emergency power pack and its all-wheel drive ensures maximum traction in cross-country operations. The specially modified truck has hydraulically operated rear stabilisers to steady the vehicle while firing. The cabin has been reinforced to withstand the shock waves during operations.

Mounted Gun System developed by Gun Carriage Factory Jabalpur was first unveiled at Defexpo in Chennai this April | Photo courtesy: Sandeep Unnithan
Designed by GCF Jabalpur, the MGS builds on the OFB's successful Dhanush 155x45 mm howitzer. The Dhanush was built from blueprints supplied by the Swedish gun maker as part of the 1986 purchase. The Army has indicated a total requirement of 414 howitzers.

The MGS is being developed in anticipation of an order from the Army.
- An OFB official said
The Army's requirement for 814 MGS howitzers worth Rs 8,547 crore was given an Acceptance of Necessity (AON) by the Defence Acquisition Council in September 2011.

The AON has since expired and it is still unclear whether the Army will want such a system in the near-term.

Over the next five years, the Army will get 100 Vajras, 145 ULH, 114 Dhanush and 300 130 mm howitzers upgunned to 155 /45 caliber. I don't see a new howitzer programme on the horizon.
- Says Lt General P Ravi Shankar, former DG Artillery
BUY AND MAKE PROGRAMME

As many as 200 guns are to be bought off the shelf and the remainder to be built within the country through technology transfers to an Indian partner with all deliveries to be completed by the end of the 13th five-year defence plan ending in 2022.

OFB officials say they will pursue the MGS as an export case, in case the Army does not want the gun. The Dhanush, they say, has already received preliminary inquiries from prospective buyers in the Middle East.

FIELD ARTILLERY RATIONALISATION PLAN

The MGS is part of a massive purchase of over 2,800 howitzers as part of its Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan (FARP) launched after the Kargil War in 1999.

The FARP envisages standardising the artillery regiments into four types of howitzers-towed by trucks, mounted on a tank chassis, on a wheeled vehicle and ultra-light guns that can be airlifted into battle by helicopters.

Raghunathgb · Post by **Raghunathgb** » 21 Oct 2019 10:55

Ofb persuiung 155mm/52mm caliber truck mounted gun is a welcome development considering the weight issues of ATAGS reported which could pose problems for mobility on trucks. Yesterday there has been reports of usage of dhanush in border skirmishes . Hopefully army is impressed and start trials of truck mounted gun asap.

niran · Post by **niran** » 21 Oct 2019 12:26

Raghunathgb wrote:Has there any news on the truck mounted gun of OFB. Has the trials been conducted ?

The MGS has a range of over 40 km and will be offered to the Army for user trails after several rounds of internal trials.

minor edit if i may, truck mounted arty usually has half the range of its towed or SPGs(Self Propeled Gun aka Vajra) counterparts, reason being full range firing recoil will break the truck and kill its crew.
to answer the question why bother with half range arty when we have full range?
full range arty is corp level, during a war the usual wait period before a fire request goes through is 18 minutes for Royal Thai Army, 12 minutes for Singporean folks, 3o plus for PDR Lao army, 9minutes for merikan marines, dunno about IA. truck mounted guns can be used at battalion and lower level resulting in practically no wait period quicker fulfillment of objectives and fewer causality.
Summary:
the author does not know shit about arty.

niran · Post by **niran** » 21 Oct 2019 12:30

and before anyone says Mortar!!
Mortar tubes and its round has to be carried by men max round is 3 rounds and team will yell Ammo!!!! here!! we need Ammo here!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Oct 2019 00:49

Folks OFB makes a new Electronic Point Detonating Fuze (EPDF) for 155 mm shells.
What are its modes?

Is it MOFA ; Multiple Option Fuze for Artillery?
i.e does it have proximity mode?

usually PDF have contact, delay, and time
Electronic have safing circuits to dud the fuze in case of no explosion.

And the threads will they fit a 120mm mortar round?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Oct 2019 03:38

Mounted Gun Systems have hydraulic outriggers they use to stiffen the gun carriage and also pass on the recoil.
Havent heard of the range being halved. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAESAR_se ... d_howitzer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Artillery_System

niran · Post by **niran** » 23 Oct 2019 08:27

Karan M wrote:Mounted Gun Systems have hydraulic outriggers they use to stiffen the gun carriage and also pass on the recoil.
Havent heard of the range being halved. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAESAR_se ... d_howitzer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Artillery_System

read carefully
both are 52 Calibre guns and range with normal shell is 30ish 40plus is with extended range and rocket shells.
52calibre is the length of the barrel Dhanush is 45 Calibre
longer length translate into more space for charge to expand bedore shell is expelled translate into more kinetic energy translate into higher shell velocity and longer range, read 30ish from 45calibre 25ish. this is with same charge, if larger charge for longer barrel is used longer range and higher shell velocity achieved.

summary
truck mounted arty will have reduced range(firing range not truck travel range)

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Oct 2019 09:11

Niran ji, full range firing recoil will not break the chassis. The chassis of MGS are stiffened and the recoil is transferred to the ground using hydraulic support that are usually directly linked to the gun pintel so as to not flex the chassis. I am not sure where you are picking up the recoil will break the truck thing.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Oct 2019 10:12

He used to be artillery before being a hakim.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 23 Oct 2019 12:57

Each Division in Indian Army has an organic Artillery Brigade which used to have a break-up like this:

1 x Medium Regiments (130/155)
3 x Field Regiments (105mm)
1 x Light Regiment (120mm Mortar)

But in due course of time, most Field Regiments became Medium Regiment when we bought 130mm M-46 guns at throwaway price in early 90s. Now, these will become 155/45 or 155/52.

In addition, each Independent Infantry Brigade [written as (I) Inf Bde] has 1 x Field Regiment while their Armored & Mechanized counterparts have 1 x Medium Regiment. Don't know about Infantry but in case of Armd & Mech, this again will become 155/45 or 155/52.

So, 'long range' arty is available at much lower level than a Corps Artillery Brigade.

And please don't forget that at 814 units, MGS is the second largest category after Towed Guns (1,550 units IIRC).

They will complement SP(Tracked) systems and also be part of all maneuvering formations.

nam · Post by **nam** » 23 Oct 2019 15:29

L&T has delivered 45th K9, in the first year of production.

A bigger tank than Arjun, which OFB took years to deliver 100 of them.

Meanwhile OFB was to deliver 13 towed artillery before the end of the year, when they get time from their strikes.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 Oct 2019 15:39

niran wrote:
Karan M wrote:Mounted Gun Systems have hydraulic outriggers they use to stiffen the gun carriage and also pass on the recoil.
Havent heard of the range being halved. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAESAR_se ... d_howitzer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Artillery_System
read carefully
both are 52 Calibre guns and range with normal shell is 30ish 40plus is with extended range and rocket shells.
52calibre is the length of the barrel Dhanush is 45 Calibre
longer length translate into more space for charge to expand bedore shell is expelled translate into more kinetic energy translate into higher shell velocity and longer range, read 30ish from 45calibre 25ish. this is with same charge, if larger charge for longer barrel is used longer range and higher shell velocity achieved.

summary
truck mounted arty will have reduced range(firing range not truck travel range)

Again, those are the same ranges non mounted artillery achieves with the same kind of rounds. Your point would be valid if for example, the advanced rounds with longer barrels gave ranges equal to conventional artillery with shorter barrels, that would imply an edge to the latter. But instead, they achieve the same ranges the rounds achieve in standard artillery configurations with shorter configurations.

Also, both designs show how the mounted gun systems are actually based off of the ground and don't transfer their recoil to the truck chassis, breaking it etc. There are multiple ways to achieve the same.

Coming to ammunition and ranges:
https://www.msmholding.sk/en/what-we-do ... ofd-mk-dv/

HE ER-BB projectile uses the discharge gas generator (Base Bleed), which ensures extended range up to 38,000 meters, when fired from 45 caliber gun and up to 41,000 meters when fired from 52 caliber gun.

See Nora for instance:
https://www.army-technology.com/project ... -howitzer/

The gun can fire an ordinary projectile to a maximum range of 20km and Extended Range Full-Bore-Base Bleed (ERFB-BB) projectile up to a distance of 41km.

This thing of truck mounted artillery can't fire rounds to the max distance seems to be an urban legend or based off of designs where they did not model the recoil forces accurately, and hence had to compromise on the range, performance as you state. But with todays designs, this has been taken care of (to an extent, who know what pops up, a decade into service!).

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 23 Oct 2019 15:49

nam wrote:L&T has delivered 45th K9, in the first year of production.

A bigger tank than Arjun, which OFB took years to deliver 100 of them.

Meanwhile OFB was to deliver 13 towed artillery before the end of the year, when they get time from their strikes.

No comparison
OFB is manufacturing Arjun and Dhanush but L&T is assembling CDK

srai · Post by **srai** » 23 Oct 2019 17:00

These truck-mounted designs

Vesus

These mounted systems

Very different

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 23 Oct 2019 17:40

The first 2 are 105mm and others are 155mm there is a huge difference in recoil

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 23 Oct 2019 17:42

The low-recoil 155mm Brutus system
(larger brother of the 105mm low-recoil Humvee mountable Hawkeye)

Fort Sill Soldiers evaluate Brutus system at MFIX

Both weapons differ from traditional howitzer configurations which fire from a fixed position and recoil backwards. Instead, the HMMWV Hawkeye and Brutus incorporate a patented soft recoil technology that allows the howitzer to be mounted on a vehicle which can be fired without transferring the force to the vehicle, thus allowing it to retain its mobility. That development allows the user to shoot and move out rapidly.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 23 Oct 2019 17:57

Brutus is essentially a no frills adaptation of a M777 LWH that, with the soft recoil system,can be mounted on any medium/Medium Tactical Vehicles sized truck. It is very much an offer to the US Army to mount its existing LWH's via modification on a platform that is easily deployable and that it already has operational. Some of the others, particularly, like the Archer are essentially complete mobile artillery systems which though quite heavy, and not as expeditionary but with a high degree of automation that reduces crew count and time to shoot and scoot. I think it is something like under a minute to set up, under a minute to pack up and just a few minutes to replenish rounds.

nam · Post by **nam** » 23 Oct 2019 19:20

Kakarat wrote:
nam wrote:L&T has delivered 45th K9, in the first year of production.

A bigger tank than Arjun, which OFB took years to deliver 100 of them.

Meanwhile OFB was to deliver 13 towed artillery before the end of the year, when they get time from their strikes.
No comparison
OFB is manufacturing Arjun and Dhanush but L&T is assembling CDK

It is not fully CKD. L&T is manufacturing parts locally. The hull and turret is actually manufactured locally. It plans to produce 50% (may be by value) locally.

Being a private business, there is no value for L&T in doing CKD. Why would they get in to a business, where they cannot learn and develop their own product?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 23 Oct 2019 19:32

I hope L&T get good experience and come up with their own product, just like SoKo has done with many of their military equipments.

nam · Post by **nam** » 23 Oct 2019 19:35

GoI has allowed L&T to market, K9, under the name, "Vajra" to international market.

SK has sold lot of K9 to other countries. So I don't think it has problems, if more is sold under another name, as long as it get a cut.

From our perspective, SPH is all practical purpose a "bigger tank with less armor". L&T is only entity after OFB to built tracked vehicle in the country for our services. Arjun suffered a lot due to manufacturing QC issues.

I feel, DRDO would go ATAGS way for FRCV. Involve L&T & OFB as two types of prototype builder.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 23 Oct 2019 19:46

nam wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
No comparison
OFB is manufacturing Arjun and Dhanush but L&T is assembling CDK
It is not fully CKD. L&T is manufacturing parts locally. The hull and turret is actually manufactured locally. It plans to produce 50% (may be by value) locally.

Only body parts most of the important components are imported. Unlike a tank K9 doesn't have heavy armor even though it looks like a tank

nam wrote:Being a private business, there is no value for L&T in doing CKD. Why would they get in to a business, where they cannot learn and develop their own product?

For profit, dont expect too much TOT for a small order of just a 100 nos

nam wrote:GoI has allowed L&T to market, K9, under the name, "Vajra" to international market.

SK has sold lot of K9 to other countries. So I don't think it has problems, if more is sold under another name, as long as it get a cut.

You are dreaming if you thinking SK will allow L&T to export when it can get the orders for itself

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Oct 2019 19:51

rohitvats wrote:Each Division in Indian Army has an organic Artillery Brigade which used to have a break-up like this:

1 x Medium Regiments (130/155)
3 x Field Regiments (105mm)
1 x Light Regiment (120mm Mortar)

But in due course of time, most Field Regiments became Medium Regiment when we bought 130mm M-46 guns at throwaway price in early 90s. Now, these will become 155/45 or 155/52.

In addition, each Independent Infantry Brigade [written as (I) Inf Bde] has 1 x Field Regiment while their Armored & Mechanized counterparts have 1 x Medium Regiment. Don't know about Infantry but in case of Armd & Mech, this again will become 155/45 or 155/52.

So, 'long range' arty is available at much lower level than a Corps Artillery Brigade.

And please don't forget that at 814 units, MGS is the second largest category after Towed Guns (1,550 units IIRC).

They will complement SP(Tracked) systems and also be part of all maneuvering formations.

The artillery rationalization plan by Gen. Sunderji was to make the field regiments also equipped with 155mm guns.
Essentially only one type of shell for logistics.
I am hoping the OFB EPDF will thus be one Fuze with multiple setting.
And the icing on cake would be if it is usable on the 120mm mortar.
And the cherry if EPDF has MOFA capability i.e. proximity.
I expect that as the Zelar fuze, which it replaces, had proximity setting and ERFB shells are fragmentation steel.

The 105mm would be for mountain use, but Kargil and LOC show even there 155mm rules.

The 130mm M-46 upgrade to 155mm 45 caliber is by OFB and is called Sarang.
Its very affordable. Only limitation is the gun carriage has limitation on the elevation for high angle fire.
I expect plains units could sue them without any handicap.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Oct 2019 19:52

Kakarat don't get into a fight.

Lets do more research to find out what L&T plans are.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 23 Oct 2019 20:00

No sir no fight, just trying to clear things based on my discussion with people from Defexpo 18

I am not against L&T they are doing a wonderful thing, their products are first class

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Oct 2019 20:09

Then can you use softer language. Its easy for things to slide down hill especially on BRF.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 23 Oct 2019 20:42

nam wrote:L&T has delivered 45th K9, in the first year of production.

A bigger tank than Arjun, which OFB took years to deliver 100 of them.

Meanwhile OFB was to deliver 13 towed artillery before the end of the year, when they get time from their strikes.

Nam ji, this is an unfair comparison. Arjun's supply line had to be built from scratch. L&T gets advantage of existing K9 suppliers.

Arjun was a brand new product with production issues to be worked out, that process is over for Samsung.

hgupta · Post by **hgupta** » 23 Oct 2019 21:37

So based on the artillery gun acquisitions, what is the comparative firepower ranking of an Indian brigade to, let's say, an American brigade or British brigade or Chinese brigade or even an Israeli brigade?

srai · Post by **srai** » 24 Oct 2019 01:49

Kakarat wrote:The first 2 are 105mm and others are 155mm there is a huge difference in recoil

If you look at the discussions just prior, the point of the images was to show the design for managing recoil on a mounted system

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 24 Oct 2019 02:16

srai wrote:
Kakarat wrote:The first 2 are 105mm and others are 155mm there is a huge difference in recoil
If you look at the discussions just prior, the point of the images was to show the design for managing recoil on a mounted system

Ok got it

My walk around of the MGS from Defexpo 18 showing the gun mounting point
https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 6695741440

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Oct 2019 04:18

hgupta wrote:So based on the artillery gun acquisitions, what is the comparative firepower ranking of an Indian brigade to, let's say, an American brigade or British brigade or Chinese brigade or even an Israeli brigade?

You mean artillery brigade or infantry and armour brigade?

We should first firm up TOE for Indian brigade and can then compare.
BTW with 45th K-9 delivery that is 1 regiment plus 9 for next regiment.

niran · Post by **niran** » 24 Oct 2019 11:20

Thakur_B wrote:Niran ji, full range firing recoil will not break the chassis. The chassis of MGS are stiffened and the recoil is transferred to the ground using hydraulic support that are usually directly linked to the gun pintel so as to not flex the chassis. I am not sure where you are picking up the recoil will break the truck thing.

very many designs saaru
the one you are talking about is later designs where the truck carries the gun, gun practically seperates itself from the truck proper to come to firing position.

am talking about much simpler and commoner design where the gun stays on the truck. from what i have seen Indian deaigns are the simpler ones.

as Ramana Guru says very few people knows about compulsary military in Siam Desha, me specialised in Arty my record of remaing undected for 7 consequetive days as spotter still holds. (woah! what a feeling boasting showing off )