Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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RoyG
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by RoyG »

NRao wrote:^^^^^

THAT is impressive.

Seems to me that IIT-M is turning out to be the DARPA of India.

Why is it so hard to understand that the 1 success after 9 failures is priceless?
DRDO is functioning more like DARPA now. Leaning on IITs and other univ due to talent crunch.
RoyG
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by RoyG »

Anoop wrote:

Talk by Lt. Gen. Ravishankar (R) to Northern Command on technology and organization for the future.
He doesn't say it directly. He is basically blaming the Indian civil services for the sad state of affairs in r&d, procurement, and psychology of armed forces.

Good presentation and sincere effort to make meaningful changes. Good luck to him.
fanne
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

yup, very pioneering. Should be helped by the government, more importantly, institutionalized, like Malaonkar sir can start a course in naval aviation design or some aspect of it at IIT Mumbai if he is so inclined, so and so forth. Like Govt can make focus, they will make an effort to convince 40 retired officers to become faculty at the premium institutes and do project-driven work in their area of expertise (application rather than pure science, pure science only if there is no way out).
BenG
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by BenG »

Anoop wrote:

Talk by Lt. Gen. Ravishankar (R) to Northern Command on technology and organization for the future.
Amazing work happening in our lifetime. This is a very good way to keep upgrading weapon systems to prevent obsolence.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Is this already posted?

https://eurasiantimes.com/indian-army-t ... howitzers/
Indian Army To Acquire 200 More K9 Vajra (Thunder) Howitzers Post Successful Deployment In Ladakh — Reports
By EurAsian Times Desk
January 25, 2022
The Indian government is expected to place an order for 200 new K-9 Vajra (Thunder) 155mm self-propelled howitzers worth over Rs 10,000 crore (approx USD 1.5 Billion) with Larsen & Toubro, India Today reported.


The report claimed that the order could be placed by this year with delivery beginning from 2023 and projected to be finished by 2028. A considerable number of these guns will be particularly modified to function in the high-altitude cold deserts of Ladakh and Sikkim, with upgraded engines.

This deal could be signed with Larsen & Toubro (L&T) at Defexpo 2022, the defense ministry’s biennial land and naval systems exhibition, the report said. The 12th edition of Defexpo will take place in Gandhinagar, Gujarat, from March 10 to 13.

In a joint venture with South Korean defense company Hanwha Defense, L&T previously delivered 100 K-9 Vajras worth Rs 4,500 crore to the Indian Army. The contract was signed in May 2017, with the army receiving the 100th cannon in February 2021.

A new order will provide a big boost to the local industry and will be a big step forward in the government’s ambitions to modernize the armed services.
SSridhar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

ramana wrote:Is this already posted?
https://eurasiantimes.com/indian-army-t ... howitzers/
. . . This deal could be signed with Larsen & Toubro (L&T) at Defexpo 2022, . . .
DefExpo 2022 has come and gone 3 months back.
The latest was this: Government starts process to buy 100 more K9-Vajras - The Hindu 31 Dec 2022 by Dinakar Peri
“The Defence Ministry issued the Request For Proposal to L&T in November. Once they respond to it, the contract negotiations will begin,” a defence official confirmed. The repeat order could not be more than the volume of the original order, so the number was fixed at 100 howitzers, the official explained.
NRao
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

Aditya_V
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

How much has L&T able to Indigenize, can we make the Chassis in India with a 1000 HP engine and mount our own 39/45/52 caliber Tech from Bofors/ Bhaunsh/ ATAGS combined with Satellite so that data from Drones can be converted to Shell leaving the barrel within a really short period of time. Preferably smart shell where the Drone can give the GAGAN coordinates and shell goes there.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Scorpene type situation. Even if an order is placed this year, deliveries will only start next year. What were these worthies doing before the production line went idle? The China threat in Galwan happened in 2020. Plenty of time to have re-ordered
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Aditya,

All that you are asking for is possible to execute with any of the guns being manufactured in India.

But the Indian army has to see the utility of such a capacity.

If they do and ask for it accross the force. It should be possible to execute it.
hnair
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by hnair »

Looks like PGK tech is being proofed for 58cal to achieve “accuracy approaching precision” (ref: General PR Shankar’s blog post on use-cases for accuracy vs precision when it comes to long range artillery). Khan seem to be readying the land army to fight in a GPS denied/degraded and USAF supremacy not assured situation using artillery. And using lots of cheaper munitions for stopping armor or infantry thrusts instead of expensive precision ones they used in the past two decades as replacement for even more expensive close air support.

tweet
We successfully fired our Extended Range – Precision Guidance Kit (PGK-ER) from the @USArmy's Extended Range Cannon Artillery (ERCA).

Demonstrated in our design maturity, we continue to meet the Army’s requirements in long-range precision fires: ms.spr.ly/6019eLyHl
Link to NG’s PGK page

PGK-ER is designed for the current inventory of artillery rounds and cannons to ensure value and affordability, but it can be adapted to other artillery rounds to extend mission and increase customer’s purchasing power. For example, it will be compatible with the higher muzzle velocity of the new 58 caliber cannon the U.S. Army is developing as well as the legacy 39 caliber cannon.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

In the Hindu article by Dinakar Peri, Why can't the "repeat order be more than the original order" when you know the need is high?
IOW why can you negotiate for 200 K-9s with the understanding that it will be in two tranches?
Something is really wrong with them.
In fact, IA had no intention of deploying K-9s till they were forced to in 2020.
The excuse was cold weather performance till it was pointed out K-9s are in Finland and Norway.

The repeat order could not be more than the volume of the original order, so the number was fixed at 100 howitzers, the official explained.

....
To ensure that these systems performed optimally in the extreme cold weather conditions of the mountains, the Army also procured winterisation kits for the regiment deployed. There are nine items including batteries, oils and lubricants which need to be insulated from extreme temperatures and don’t freeze at -20 degrees celsius, which the kits cater for.
Also its quantity and not volume. Are officials failing simple English also?
Anoop
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Anoop »



Part 2 of discussion on artillery use in Ukraine. Lessons for India:

1. Focus on ammunition management, surge capacity from peacetime to wartime and logistics for movement.

2. Changing role of artillery to deterrence and non-contact destruction in depth, and need for integration with IAF.

3. Need for changing artillery to General Cadre.

4. Need for a recce-surveillance complex to take advantage of higher ranges.
fanne
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

[quote=] "repeat order be more than the original order" ?
[/quote]

Can somebody remind me, which verse of Veda says that or for the new age people, what article of the constitution?
sanjayc
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by sanjayc »

^^ Standard govt regulation, I read somewhere, for repeat orders from the same manufacturer. Usual habit of Indians to tie themselves in knots and put self-imposed curbs on oneself to restrict one's own performance to ensure suboptimal outcomes. Bureaucrats are trained to turn Indians into under-achievers and punch well below their weight
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Doesn't make any sense, that the follow-up order cannot be larger than the original order.

This is quite strange.

https://www.army-technology.com/project ... in%202001.

The link above with the detailed procurement orders of the Polish armoured recovery vehicle WZT-3M directly contradicts the official's comment.

It was procured in the following quantities from 1999 onwards.

1) 44 vehicle contract was signed in 1999.

2) 80 vehicles in 2003.

3) 228 vehicles in 2004.

4) 204 vehicles in 2011.

Unless the Indian procurement system has become even more stupid in the last 10 years. It makes no sense.
csaurabh
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by csaurabh »

fanne wrote:
Can somebody remind me, which verse of Veda says that or for the new age people, what article of the constitution?
We are not a country governed by Vedas or constitutions.
We are governed by 'Circulars' and 'Notices' issued by random petty bureaucrats.
It is a a legacy of the British raj that we do not question the decisions of unelected unaccountable baboos. More to the point, we don't even know about them.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Good usage stats for M777.

Note barrel burst around 1170 rounds for IA. So Ukraine must be using less charge.

https://twitter.com/CasualArtyFan/statu ... 2KRoQ&s=19
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:Good usage stats for M777.

Note barrel burst around 1170 rounds for IA. So Ukraine must be using less charge.

https://twitter.com/CasualArtyFan/statu ... 2KRoQ&s=19
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2022/11/0 ... o-overuse/

The report states that one of the crews has had fired about 6000 rounds from their M777 and the gun has had 4 barrel changes in order to do so.

Quoting from the article.
A Ukrainian crew of the M777 towed howitzer has changed the barrel of its weapon system four times. Since it was delivered and put into service, 6,000 rounds have been fired from their M777. This was written on Twitter by Björn Stritzel, the chief foreign policy correspondent of the German publication Bild.
Further reading of the report suggests that the arty piece is supposed to have a barrel life of 2500 shots.

But the barrels are wearing out a lot earlier than that.

It seems that there is a quality issue with the forging of the barrels themselves. That they are not performing as per the established design standards.
suryag
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by suryag »

I believe a CoI is needed and restart all summer/winter/spring/high altitude/sea leve/carriage/mobility trials should be done after DRDO/OFB has ascertained the cause and proven the fix. Oops i forgot this was not the dhanush's barrel life. Since it is M777 one certificate from BAE is good enough to use and resume induction
NRao
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

Further reading of the report suggests that the arty piece is supposed to have a barrel life of 2500 shots.

But the barrels are wearing out a lot earlier than that.
The 2500 rounds is based on a number of factors.

USMC, the user with the most experience with M777s, has had its share of complaints too. US Army has none - they hardly have a need to use them to such extents. Air Support does the heavy work most of the time.

I would not use data from Ukraine to support any argument. Just too many factors affecting the situation. I suspect the situation demanded use of Hotel charges. Sure to reduce barrel life. And, if the rate was very high too, then a reduced life is even more predictable.
source wrote: Troxell did not say how many rounds the Marines had fired from their howitzers specifically or over what time span. The U.S. military does not have an average barrel life for the M777, either, since a variety of factors can impact how fast the tube wears out.
JTull
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by JTull »

NRao wrote: I would not use data from Ukraine to support any argument. Just too many factors affecting the situation. I suspect the situation demanded use of Hotel charges. Sure to reduce barrel life. And, if the rate was very high too, then a reduced life is even more predictable.
I just have a small peeve with this.

Masa product usage when they've overwhelming battlefield superiority is touted as "battle tested".

Criticism should also be equally allowed.
NRao
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by NRao »

JTull wrote:
NRao wrote: I would not use data from Ukraine to support any argument. Just too many factors affecting the situation. I suspect the situation demanded use of Hotel charges. Sure to reduce barrel life. And, if the rate was very high too, then a reduced life is even more predictable.
I just have a small peeve with this.

Masa product usage when they've overwhelming battlefield superiority is touted as "battle tested".

Criticism should also be equally allowed.
Be critical - all of us have been (US Army has lost lives due to an M777 "breech explosion").

That does not mean that one is very casual about collecting data to come to a conclusion.

Barrels sent to Ukraine were from very old, stored stock. Typically stored items go through a process to be "certified" - I very much doubt that happened to these units/systems.

Usage of the M777 is the highest in Ukraine and that provides data. But, they are not using it under the same circumstances as the US Army or MC - not even close - and that provides a totally different set of data. This delta is what I was referring to when I said I would not use the data from Ukraine - because it has a natural bias.

BAE does not make the M777 anymore. Today, USMC uses third-party sources to make their barrels. And, not surprisingly they are reporting better results (I do not think these barrels will reach Ukraine)!!

As an aside, US armed forces have started using third parties (silicon valley, small businesses) to solve their problems and one will start seeing the impact soon. I would highly recommend using someone in Ludhiana to solve certain problems. Barrels are one of them :-?
RoyG
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by RoyG »

fanne wrote:
wrote: "repeat order be more than the original order" ?
Can somebody remind me, which verse of Veda says that or for the new age people, what article of the constitution?
The price goes up when you have to order the second batch and the procurement guys made up of military guys and bureaucrats make extra money.

Many BRFites think that we will have an independent MIC :lol:

Artillery, tanks, afv, aircraft, submarines, small arms etc...list goes on and on. If it wasn't accomplished in the last two decades why not another two? They will all still be here making all sorts of excuses.
Thakur_B
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

General Financial Rules, gentlemen. Every government department is bound by them.
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Thakur_B wrote:General Financial Rules, gentlemen. Every government department is bound by them.
The procurement is WZT-3M i have listed earlier on the page seems to be an exception.


So was that a scandal?
bala
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

NRao wrote:Seems to me that IIT-M is turning out to be the DARPA of India
IIT-M has an innovation center for students to tinker with any practical Idea. Hope the rest of IITs adopt similar approach. Only by hands on practical work does one get to products that are leading edge and have the technology edge in the market place. Lt. Gen. Ravishankar being from the Army can provide the students of IIT-M army oriented projects for the innovation center. Sometimes you need a fresh perspective and students have that.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

Drag & Drop into new window for full size.

https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... 6R2UOTSKrA ---> All eight artillery guns of Kalyani Strategic Systems Limited.

Image
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/rahulsinghx/status/ ... RA9IKDyGMQ ---> The blockbuster demonstration of the army’s capabilities at Devlali by the School of Artillery featured several big guns including Dhanush, K9 Vajra-T and the M777s.

Image
hgupta
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by hgupta »

Rakesh wrote:Drag & Drop into new window for full size.

[Twitter post deleted as per BRF]---> All eight artillery guns of Kalyani Strategic Systems Limited.
[Image [deleted as per BRF]-
Is there data on how many rounds can be fired before barrel replacement? Associated costs with per unit? barrel change cost?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Defencecore/status/ ... wa_ws8B2-w ---> ATAGS has successfully completed the validation trials towards meeting the specifications of the Army.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/defencealerts/statu ... uSKOG30LgA ---> Life Extension of 300mm Smerch Rockets for Indian Army by private Indian vendors.

Image
Aditya_V
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Hope we are using the tech developed from Pinaka 2 to give these the ability for precision strikes
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Long ago DRDO designed a taper bore gun and it was produced by the OFB.

What was the operational role for it?
Prem Kumar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Image

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FpJn4vHWIAA ... me=900x900

If the Zeus Numerix shell works as advertised, its truly a game-changer! Less than 10m CEP at all ranges and compatible with all calibers from 39 - 52

Truly cutting edge tech and heartening to see such R&D coming from a private player. Hope it passes all tests and is inducted
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

I asked the founder if it fits the fuze well and what guidance it has. He said it will thread into the fuze well.
It has GPS and NAVIC hips.
And INS to allow for loss of signal.
He also has an 81mm mortar fuze with more modifications.
---
Hence it is not a PGK clone. That is still coming from ARDE.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Ukraine War.
Krasnopol shell usage.

https://twitter.com/TheHumanFund5/statu ... 5H8dQ&s=19
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

ramana wrote:Ukraine War.
Krasnopol shell usage.

https://twitter.com/TheHumanFund5/statu ... 5H8dQ&s=19
Can some arty guy say, what kind of accuracy would be possible using unguided shells. If such accurate target observations was available?
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