Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Tanaji wrote:Mody-ji,

Wasnt the Dhanush order for 114 guns placed back in 2019? Were they testing it for 3 years AFTER production go ahead?
This is OFB we r talking about. There were other production quality issues I believe.
Once ordered There is no reason to not induct as this decision is now done and dusted unless as part of acceptance trial something is noticed. And generally that is a QC issue. Every weapon including will fire some rounds as part of those trials.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

fanne wrote:For now GOI 1, chandigarh lobby 0 - for now that is. Would either wait for real orders or wait for moon test
Current dispensation needs to win another term to really drive home the message that there will be no imports.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Atmavik »

^^^ right now the lobby is saying ‘u may have the clock but we have the time’

Need large orders and delivery in the next year
ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Anujan wrote:
fanne wrote:For now GOI 1, chandigarh lobby 0 - for now that is. Would either wait for real orders or wait for moon test
Current dispensation needs to win another term to really drive home the message that there will be no imports.
Anujan the current officer corps has been too badly burned by OFB and private sector is only now picking up the slack.
As newer generation of officers who are being exposed to a Indian private sector prods and also don’t have cultural baggage with DRDO / OFB things will improve.
There is quite a bit of change in MOD as well. If there is a suitable product that meets our doctrines then there will be induction.
Engineering /radars are two areas pretty
Much closed to non domestic vendors. Things will improve. There is no choice.
Dhanush is to close to the T72 barrel bursting saga me thinks so AHQ rightly have made OFB jump through the hoops. That plus other QC issues I suspect.
There r other inductions that r happening wet to domestic products under the radar. Many in the news.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Per this ToI report, not everything is lost for the Chandigarh Lobby,
DRDO hopes to complete the “few remaining tests for non-firing parameters” of the ATAGS within a month or so, following which the RFP (request for proposal) or tender will be issued to TASL and Bharat Forge.
ATAGS also has an “all-electric drive technology” to ensure maintenance-free and reliable operations over longer periods of time.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

Trying not to get my BP up. But according to the TOI article, non firing trials will be followed by a RFP, and then order of 150

Athos proposal was to outright buy 400, and then Screwdrivergiri of 1180 more.

Sigh.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by V_Raman »

I think we all are honestly missing something in the procurement process with these guns. There is no way army can stall so much without legitimate issues.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

If the army says there are issues, who can contradict that. Remember the episode with failure of Renk transmission. There you had Renk calling the buff.

Who is going to call the bluff when it comes to Indian sources.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by A Deshmukh »

Pratyush wrote:There you had Renk calling the buff.
Who is going to call the bluff when it comes to Indian sources.
Tatas and BF
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Do they have the international and institutional heft of 1000s of deliveries behind them. As Renk had with over 2000 leopard 2s.

Absent that it's not possible.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Well it turns out the ATAGS guns which are supposed to have cleared the 'confirmatory trials' had electric drive and was made by Tata SED. Indian Army has specified for guns to be equipped with hydraulic drive, so the summer/winter trials for the same and also for guns developed by Bharat Forge may be done in the coming years. Enough time to tender and finalize a new canteen contractor to supply chai, biskut and samosa's.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by k prasad »

V_Raman wrote:I think we all are honestly missing something in the procurement process with these guns. There is no way army can stall so much without legitimate issues.
I so so wish that were credibly the case. But there's a catena of indicators to suggest that many instances of stalling have little to do with legitimate concerns. And even if these are legitimate concerns, the duration and 'thoroughness' of trials go well beyond what would be required to interrogate these concerns.

For an example, look at the metrics for the T-90 vs Arjun "comparative" trials.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ramana_brf/status/1 ... llWobY_aNw ---> How come IA comes up with innovative names for extended trials? Development, user exploitation, confirmatory, etc, etc. Wish they had shown such innovation in supporting indigenization. @rajnathsingh

Tweet above in reply to tweet below...

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... llWobY_aNw ---> DRDO-TATA 155/52mm cal Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (#ATAGS) has completed confirmatory trials.

[This type of trial is usually implemented when it is necessary to provide additional or firm evidence of efficacy or safety.]
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Deep cleanse is what is required. Another term of Modi sarkar is necessary but not sufficient. Unless there is an actual cleansing through the ranks, promoting Atmanirbhar friendly officers and sidelining the rest, the message won't get through.

If people are too damaged by past baggage and cannot see that India has changed, that's their problem. They are fossils and can be gracefully sidelined, where they can sip their whisky and gripe about the good ol' days.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

finalize a new canteen contractor to supply chai, biskut and samosa's
What happened to whiskey, single malt, cheese, croisants, a night on the town in paris, shopping for designer clothes, shoes, chocolates, etc.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/ramana_brf/status/1 ... llWobY_aNw ---> How come IA comes up with innovative names for extended trials? Development, user exploitation, confirmatory, etc, etc. Wish they had shown such innovation in supporting indigenization. @rajnathsingh

Tweet above in reply to tweet below...

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... llWobY_aNw ---> DRDO-TATA 155/52mm cal Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (#ATAGS) has completed confirmatory trials.

[This type of trial is usually implemented when it is necessary to provide additional or firm evidence of efficacy or safety.]
How do we know if this was not something that AHQ has as part of the trial process between itself and the DRDO / developer? As far as I am aware each of the three trials mentioned above have a place in the developmnent process. To say that they have been suddenly thought off may be a little further from the truth.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Neela »

Anujan wrote:
fanne wrote:For now GOI 1, chandigarh lobby 0 - for now that is. Would either wait for real orders or wait for moon test
Current dispensation needs to win another term to really drive home the message that there will be no imports.

The "lobby" is now trying for brinkmanship .
Add trial after trial.
Hope that one fails.
Use that argument to go for sudden imports.

Its a high risk game where if you are part of the lobby you could end up exposing and paint a target on yourself - desperation could lead to mistakes . It is been made worse for them by +ve indigenization list. As the psychological barrier is broken and AtmaNirbahrBharat gathers steam, any import going against the grain and published list will get unwanted attention + a review at the ministerial level (part of the procedure for imports now if I read correctly) .
^^^ right now the lobby is saying ‘u may have the clock but we have the time’
The govt has the wallet - that alone matters.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by vera_k »

Pratyush wrote:Do they have the international and institutional heft of 1000s of deliveries behind them. As Renk had with over 2000 leopard 2s.

Absent that it's not possible.
Depends on how the contracts are structured between DRDO and the manufacturer when it comes to IP. If they are not exclusive contracts, the manufacturers should be able to use the data from these trials to market and sell the products to other customers. In that case, each successive round of trials is not a wasted effort for the manufacturer even if no sales take place locally.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Theoretically you are absolutely correct.

But in the absence of orders from the home country. The international market will not be very accepting of the product being marketed by an Indian company.

The real value of such trails will be to give Indian companies insights into the wining and dining in order to build relationships.

Which in turn might result in sales.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

The order for the 150 LSP ATAGS guns was to be placed in 2018 or 2019, with both private sector firms producing 75 each. Later, the lower bidder was to get 60% of the order and higher bidder, the balance 40%. The army though raised objections and asked for more tests. The winter trials were re-conducted in Sikkim and the ATAGS was driven around for almost 500 Kms. The firing and mobility tests were successful. Thereafter the army asked for some of electrical drives to be replaced with hydraulics. This change though doesn't seem to be have been made, at least not for the current trials, as per most reports.

Now, the summer trials have been done once again and reports say they were successful.

The logical way forward would be to place the LSP order and then have the user exploitation trials (sigh), followed by full scale production orders, if everything is OK.

For the Dhanush order, 12 guns were manufactured before Covid stopped all the production activity. Also, some QC issues were found in the 1st batch of 12 guns that had been produced. Now, with the latest round of confirmatory trials, everything seems to be OK. Hopefully OFB will scale up the production fast. However, as per the last reports, OFB had a capacity to manufacture a=only about 18 guns per annum at max production, when the order had been placed. Now, with the OFB consolidation under AWE, I don't know, if they can produce higher numbers. 18 guns per annum is just too small a number. Only 1 regiment per year. A minimum quantity of 60 guns would be required from AWE, however, larger orders would be required to enable them to scale up the production numbers.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by bala »

The reporting for the success of testing is now trickling on main print media. Indigenous artillery gun passes validation trials.

Indigenous artillery gun passes validation trials
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 378688.ece
03 May 2022
The Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System met the specifications of the Army, officials said.

The indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) jointly with the private industry crossed a milestone this week by successfully completing the validation trials towards meeting the specifications of the Army.

The week-long Preliminary Service Quality Requirements (PSQR) validation retrials were conducted at the Pokhran field firing ranges from April 26 to May 2.

“Reliability of the guns were proven by conducting two second line of firing successfully. Accuracy and consistency were achieved, burst and intense timed series were also successfully evaluated during the trials,” a DRDO official said.

“Following this, there are trials for Electromagnetic Interference/ Electromagnetic Compatibility ( EMI/ EMC) and Director General Quality Assurance (DGQA) which are scheduled in May. The Request For Proposal (RFP) will be issued after that. We expect it by June.”

Stringent specifications

Stating that there are very stringent specifications for accuracy consistency, the officials said the performance during trials were well within the specifications. “Guns of both companies performed well. The successful re-validation trials paves the way for induction of the ATAGS into service,” the official stated.

The ATAGS is a 155mm, 52-calibre heavy artillery gun jointly developed by Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE), the Pune-based laboratory of DRDO, in partnership with Bharat Forge and Tata Group.

“The 155/52 mm ATAGS jointly developed by DRDO (ARDE) and TASL successfully completed PSQR firing trials today. A true example of Public-Private Partnership leading to a world class weapon system fully designed and developed in India. Such a weapon system is highly strategic for India,” Tata Advanced Systems Limited posted on Twitter on Monday.

In August, 2018 the Defence Acquisition Council had accorded approval for the purchase of 150 of these guns at an approximate cost of ₹3,365 crore which would be split between the two companies. The deal will be split in 60:40 ratio between the lowest bidder (L1) and L2. The Army has a requirement of 1,580 artillery guns in this category.

As reported earlier, in the past, the Army had flagged the issue of overweight compared with its requirements which officials said has been addressed. The Army wanted the weight to be around 18 tonnes so that it can be carried in the mountains and that it is now by and large in that range, officials had stated earlier.

The ATAGS has demonstrated a range of over 45 km, and an official termed it as the “most consistent and accurate gun in the world”. It boasts of the shortest minimum range at high angle and fast mobility in desert and mountain terrain in addition to autonomous mode firing capability and wireless communication, officials said. It has been designed to fire all in-service ammunitions with a fully automatic ammunition handling system with all electronic drives, the official added.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

bala wrote:The reporting for the success of testing is now trickling on main print media. Indigenous artillery gun passes validation trials.
Please put title, date and link of article when posted. I have edited your post. Thank You.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Tanaji »

The Dhanush re-test was due to a barrel burst either due to faulty ammunition or faulty manufacture. Why did it take IA nearly 3 years to re-test? This was not a re-design from scratch. Lets see how many orders Dhanush gets being the 144.

No order for ATAGS or Sharang yet either.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by vera_k »

However, it was posted earlier that the barrel burst was due to the additional range added to the gun beyond the original Swedish design. Points to a lack of testing early on, and it can then take a while to get an updated design back to the stage where it can be tested by the user.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

vera_k wrote:However, it was posted earlier that the barrel burst was due to the additional range added to the gun beyond the original Swedish design. Points to a lack of testing early on, and it can then take a while to get an updated design back to the stage where it can be tested by the user.
Also points to a lack of institutional knowledge in OFB. Scredrivergiri can only get you so far.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

It looks slightly more complicated than adding an extra charge to get additional range.
Basically, the extra charge to get additional range caused the shell to wobble at the muzzle exit.
So the design fix was an enlarged diameter of the muzzle brake to avoid the muzzle strike.
Earlier fixes were hit or miss.
Now its all good.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

ks-sachin, You can't design if you don't make it.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:ks-sachin, You can't design if you don't make it.
Ramana ji well OFB made Bofors. 2nd back was assembled from CKD and 3rd batch was manufactured by OFB.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

ramana wrote:It looks slightly more complicated than adding an extra charge to get additional range.
Basically, the extra charge to get additional range caused the shell to wobble at the muzzle exit.
So the design fix was an enlarged diameter of the muzzle brake to avoid the muzzle strike.
Earlier fixes were hit or miss.
Now its all good.
Thanks you sirji.

One thing the army has to realise is that to reach for atmanirbhar they will have to handhold. Deep experience comes from repeated failures. Unfortunately, the challenges of product design and productionisation is not something that young officers seem to be taught as they move up the ladder. This should start initially at the Academy and then be reinforced at Staff College etc Atmanirbhar and its implications on India and its geopolitical universe should be mandatory at NDC.

Again may be it is already in which case I shall withdraw by opinion.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Sachin,

You have hit the nail on the head. As to what one part of the real issue is.

However, the other part of the issue is the lack of political guidance from the leadership of the country.

After a very long time we have a government which is putting such an emphasis on atmanirbhata.

I have a great deal of confidence that services will adapt and learn to handhold the industry.

If you have seen the pictures of the unveiling of the MGS. The expression in the face of the former COAS is pure pride. That is such a beautiful thing to see.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:ks-sachin, You can't design if you don't make it.
Ramana ji well OFB made Bofors. 2nd back was assembled from CKD and 3rd batch was manufactured by OFB.
OFB did design the Dhanush gun and there is sufficient knowledge base available. Please don't make unsubstantiated remarks just for the sake of it.
the barrel burst was prior to the stoppage of work and the production was not stopped due to the barrel burst. The barrel burst issue had been discussed in great detail on the forum.

By the way, there was also a problem of the shell damaging the muzzel brake in the ATAGS as well. This was with the max charge. The barrel burst of the Dhanush too had occured with the max charge, after the gun had fired almost a 1,000 rounds. The ATAGS incidence was occurred during sustained firing at max charge. The recent confirmatory trials of both guns were conducted with continuous firing of 90 rounds by the Dhanush with max level 6 charge and max range and also for the ATAGS by some reports. ATAGS achieved 45 Kms range consistently and the Dhanush too performed as expected.

The Dhanush barrel burst issue was cleared only after the barrel burst issue of the M777 had been cleared and only thereafter the production had commenced. The production was stopped due to Covid and some QC issues.
Last edited by mody on 04 May 2022 15:54, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Tanaji wrote:The Dhanush re-test was due to a barrel burst either due to faulty ammunition or faulty manufacture. Why did it take IA nearly 3 years to re-test? This was not a re-design from scratch. Lets see how many orders Dhanush gets being the 144.

No order for ATAGS or Sharang yet either.
Sharang order for 300 guns has already been placed and the production is going on. Not sure about the progress though.

For the Dhanush, the order placed is for 114 guns. The total requirement was projected as 414 guns, with a follow on order of 300 guns to be placed, later. However, with all the delays, don't know if it will ever be placed.
With an order of only 114 guns, no wonder the OFB has a max production capacity of only 18 guns per annum. By the way, during this time OFB also developed the Dhanush-52 gun, with a 52 cal barrel. They have carried out the internal firing trials but no reports of IA having carried out any trials to date. Same with the Kalyani Bharat-52 gun. Developed from the Austrian 45 cal gun, internal firing trials conducted by Kalyani, but no interest so far from IA.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

Tanaji wrote:No order for ATAGS or Sharang yet either.
In August 2018, Defence Acquisition Council approved the procurement of 150 ATAGS with an estimated cost of ₹3,364.78 crore.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

mody wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: Ramana ji well OFB made Bofors. 2nd back was assembled from CKD and 3rd batch was manufactured by OFB.
OFB did design the Dhanush gun and there is sufficient knowledge base available. Please don't make unsubstantiated remarks just for the sake of it
An an initio design?

So they sat on their arses despite having the capability - this despite the Bofors blue prints - unless I am missing something.

My MIL is an architect and wife is an interior designer has an idea of how to design a house.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Tanaji »

SSridhar wrote:
Tanaji wrote:No order for ATAGS or Sharang yet either.
In August 2018, Defence Acquisition Council approved the procurement of 150 ATAGS with an estimated cost of ₹3,364.78 crore.
I am the first to admit my ignorance, but isnt that an approval by the finance ministry in principle for purchase? I don’t think MoD or DAC or whoever it is has actually placed an order yet. Semantics? Honestly I don’t know. But isn’t this the same as being given a budget to buy something but the user may or may not use it? The issue here is the IA attitude, FinMin was not the blocker.

The Sharang order seems to be a firm one , so I was mistaken on that.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

ks_sachin wrote:
ramana wrote:ks-sachin, You can't design if you don't make it.
Ramana ji well OFB made Bofors. 2nd back was assembled from CKD and 3rd batch was manufactured by OFB.
The same logical error was made by OFB that Dhanush is just an extra-length barrel and an additional charge to get more range.
BTW Bofors too had many barrel bursts with imported and local shells. Not much noise about that.
OFB noted with Sarang that a muzzle strike was occurring and enlarged the muzzle brake diameter to avoid the collision due to shell wobble.
They adopted the same fix for Dhanush but was not sufficient. The design changes were implemented and IA dot those second-line firing of 45 rounds continuous fire without issues.
Max charge imparts the most energy to the shell that induces spin and the wobble. I wrote this many times.
Coming to ATAGS both guns passed firing trials. They now have EMI tests which is a confirmatory test.
Looks like RM held firm on electric drives.
So now EMI tests.
It begs the question of what EMI weapon it is being tested against!
The gun will have a grounding path to earth by design.
So this should be just a low hurdle.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

Tanaji wrote:
No order for ATAGS or Sharang yet either.
Sharang order placed production started.

150 ATAGS paid for, currently production QA QC audit going on, until QA QC pass certificate no serial production. wait a couple of months.

as.for the why mere 150? longer range necessitates new doctines tactics logistics 150 will be used to develop a full functional system(yeah arti is a system) then full order current plan is for 5000 155mm of various caliber so plenty of scope. fikar nat
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

Any way all indian domestic order follow this path (and rightly so) - LSP production --> leading to more product refinement, production refinement, logistics, supply chain shakeout....then go for full throttle development.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Picklu »

With AAP winning in Punjab, I do not see any order being placed before 2024 election result to be honest. Already salivating with the prospect of returning the good old days of import, I am afraid.
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