Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Aditya_V
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Vips wrote:
RKumar wrote:
Cost - X Crore vs X -11 Crore
Cost of each ATAGS is Rs 16-18 Crore vs Rs 11 Crore of the Athos.
This is total BS, with USD depreciation, GST tax effect and ATAGS next shipments being more inflation protected with capex invested(Land , Machinery training and tooling) ATAGS is far cheaper in the long run.

But if the media serving a foreign owner this is exactly the thinking they want us to have soo that we can be easily sanctioned if we dare to seriously act against TSP. Much of India is still controlled from abroad.

I hope any person in any GOI org recommending this must be subjected to this, if ever they want to use the toilet, eat or drink water including in their own house, they must first get approval from Israel- which must be authenticated by GOI process before they are allowed access, they must be kept in a room without access to all this.

That is what the Print and others want to subject our nation to.

They want to tie our Industrial and military capability forever, if we import then there will always be limitations which means even 15 years down the line we cannot have freedom to act.

And best part we Indians have bought this rubbish across generations.
Thakur_B
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

srai wrote:
Vips wrote:It should not come as any surprise if 400 Units of Athos are ordered for immediate needs to meet the situation at the LAC/LOC and later 1180 units of ATAGS are ordered if confirmatory summer trials in June are cleared.

Either way Kalyani Group is set to get a big order.
By that logic, what’s stopping from ordering more Dhanush?

No excuse for Athos import.
OFB being OFB is not delivering on Dhanush. The entire order of 114 guns was to be delivered by 2022-23. OFB hasn't even supplied a dozen guns. Additional order of 414 guns was to be based on performance of this order. Be rest assured OFB would have milked Dhanush orders as employment guarantee scheme for eternity.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Not to Import is an ideal that no one can deny. But if we rely on OFB to deliver then God save us. Today OFB cannot or is not delivering an improved gun based on 80's technology inspite of having access to its blue prints, drawings and all technical data which was transferred to it.

OFB started work on Dhanush only when it saw the writing on the wall with substantial work being done by Kalyani and Tata. More then a a service offering to the nation Dhanush was and is only a desperate survival measure by the PSU. Its MGS offering in partnership with BEML based on a 8X8 is already outdated with all the top comparable superior systems coming on a 6x6 platform.
sanjayc
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by sanjayc »

Why import if OFB is not able to deliver? What is stopping the government from sharing the drawings with Bharat Forge and divide the order? Why this foolish reliance on OFB when it is not delivering, and then go for imports while ignoring domestic capability in private sector?
Luit
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Luit »

Thakur_B wrote:
srai wrote: By that logic, what’s stopping from ordering more Dhanush?

No excuse for Athos import.
OFB being OFB is not delivering on Dhanush. The entire order of 114 guns was to be delivered by 2022-23. OFB hasn't even supplied a dozen guns. Additional order of 414 guns was to be based on performance of this order. Be rest assured OFB would have milked Dhanush orders as employment guarantee scheme for eternity.
It has become fashionable for all sundry to bash the OFB. Funds are cleared six months prior to the commencement of the financial year. We have heard HAL accumulating record IAF dues over the years. Are we 100% sure that these funds have been given to the OFB? Has the declaration of the corporatization of the OFB - one of the many ‘Big Bang’ Reforms that are being undertaken and the Wuhan Virus caused a disruption in the supply chain management?

Nevertheless, the Dhanush programme seems to be on track as per this report dated 08th April, 2019.

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 771121.ece
Indigenisation to the extent of about 81%, has already been achieved. By the end of 2019, the indigenisation level of the gun will go up to 91%,” the Defence Ministry said in a statement. Six guns were handed over at a ceremony at Gun Carriage Factory, Jabalpur. “The first Dhanush regiment with 18 guns is expected to be ready by the end of next year,” an Army source said. The GCF received the Bulk Production Clearance (BPC) to manufacture 114 guns from the Army on February 18, 2019.

All 114 guns are expected to be delivered within four years. The OFB has already undertaken capacity augmentation to manufacture over 400 barrels and 250 ordnances for large calibre weapon systems. “The OFB is confident of producing 8-10 guns a month within two to three years,” an OFB official stated
Luit
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Luit »

Vips wrote:Not to Import is an ideal that no one can deny. But if we rely on OFB to deliver then God save us. Today OFB cannot or is not delivering an improved gun based on 80's technology inspite of having access to its blue prints, drawings and all technical data which was transferred to it.
This gun has been extensively tested over many years by the Indian Army. It is an evolution of the FH 77 which is a potent weapon. The Israeli gun is an evolution of the TIG 2000 - an ordinary gun purchased by Botswana, Cameroon and Uganda.
Vips wrote: OFB started work on Dhanush only when it saw the writing on the wall with substantial work being done by Kalyani and Tata. More then a a service offering to the nation Dhanush was and is only a desperate survival measure by the PSU. Its MGS offering in partnership with BEML based on a 8X8 is already outdated with all the top comparable superior systems coming on a 6x6 platform.
OFB started work on the Dhanush when V K Singh was CoAS. Back then, OFB worked on the project enthusiastically even though they were guaranteed assembly rights for imported systems. They had a 52 cal version ready in 2015, which they did not release as it would compete with the ATAGS project. Work done by Kalyani and Tata are praiseworthy. DRDO, OFB, Kalyani and Tata are working together to build India's Artillery power. All should be suitably rewarded by entire TGS contract for ATAGS and limited orders [400 nos] for Dhanush.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Luit wrote:
Nevertheless, the Dhanush programme seems to be on track as per this report dated 08th April, 2019.

https://www.thehindubusinessline.com/ne ... 771121.ece
Not so much. Since April 2019, they have made a grand total of 6 guns. Covid did not have an impact till March 2020. Even after that, lot of factories did start working again later in the year as restrictions eased. But OFB found a good excuse nonetheless.

Covid, production quality concerns delay induction of ‘Desi Bofors’ Dhanush by Army
Since April 2019, when the induction started, only 12 of the indigenously built long-range artillery guns have been delivered. This is far below the 18 guns required to make a full regiment.

Incidentally, the first six guns were delivered in April 2019 itself and more of the 155mm x 45mm Dhanush were to be produced subsequently.
Furthermore, while the Army is satisfied with the guns in terms of fire power and mobility, it has flagged multiple concerns regarding the production quality. Dhanush is being manufactured by the Gun Carriage Factory (CGF) in Madhya Pradesh’s Jabalpur, which comes under the state-run Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

“The production system has still not stabilised. After integrated firing checks, issues have cropped with regard to the hydraulics, sight and even mounting in some cases,” a source told ThePrint.
Typical OFB in other words. The concept of quality control is alien to them. This is what led to the downfall of the INSAS too. No use having a good design if you have shoddy build quality. I am glad OFB has nothing to do with ATAGS. It doesn't mean that Tata or BF won't have QC issues. They surely will. But I have far more faith in them to learn from their mistakes and work hard to deliver a satisfactory product, because their future in the business depends on it.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Just hope and pray that atleast the Sharang program is going as per the claims.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Nihat »

OFB is well responsible for its own poor reputation. Arty is the most basic and critical piece of equipment that we will need in a two front ground war, much more so than gold plated fighters and ultra high speed brahmos.

The fact that private sector is still not involved enough and arty is not on our regular list, is going to cost us and probably much sooner than expected
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Philip »

ATAGS can certainly be built by the Indian pvt. sector.Kalyani,Tatas,L& T have all performed well.The order is so large,1600+ guns that it certainly can be split up in producion, 3 or even 4 ways,including the OFB too.400 guns each is a big order.
Anujan
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

https://theprint.in/defence/drdo-will-b ... ns/668417/

DRDO will begin trials of Made-in-India towed artillery in June but Army still has ‘concerns’

While the DRDO insists ATAGS are better than the Israeli ATHOS, the army has voiced concern over its weight and inability to meet critical performance parameters.
Thakur_B
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

^^ The rate of fire is a concern?

Against what ATHOS which can't do even half of ATAGS?
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I have always wondered why this singular push for Athos.

Why never for Bharat 52. Or the TATA G 5-52. Or OFB 52. All three have NATO standard 52 caliber guns.

Well the import lobby is alive and kicking.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Maria »

We need to be patient with the 2nd negative list before we do rhona dhona here. The arms lobbies are the ones shrillin', there's nothing official from the Government on the Yahudi Athos coming here, chosen over our ATAGS.

Weight can be reduced however an opportunity to support home grown technology and have garh ka paisa garh mein will not come again.

When we have the Bharat 52, Athos should be completely out of the question.

The problem is that the Government is media shy on certain matters and that's fueling our anxieties.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Forget a two front war. Do we have the number of heavy guns to even face Porkistan today? IIRC there were less then 350 active Fh77 B Guns in 1999 during the Kargil war. Since then there has been wear and tear and with less then 10 Dhanush guns added so far what are the total number of 155MM guns we have today?

Any update on the total number of M777's supplied till date? How many M46 have been upgunned to 155MM under Project Metamorphosis (abandoned) and Project Sharang (active)?

The Kalyani 45 and 52 caliber guns were supposed to be tested last year. I hope the firing tables are ready for them because when the yellow material hits the fan that is what we will have in an emergency (in limited numbers).
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

A quick way to increase artillery holdings of the plains formations would be a follow on order for the K9 Vajra. We only ordered 100 and the L&T assembly facility will close down if there aren't any more. Since we do not have any other SP artillery, just 100 guns for the entire IA is peanuts. Trials for mounted guns don't seem to be happening either despite a few local options available now. Would be a huge boost not just to the firepower but also the mobility of the Strike corps if these deals are done and maybe some of the existing towed artillery of those formations can be moved to the northern borders with Pak and China.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

Anujan wrote:https://theprint.in/defence/drdo-will-b ... ns/668417/

DRDO will begin trials of Made-in-India towed artillery in June but Army still has ‘concerns’

While the DRDO insists ATAGS are better than the Israeli ATHOS, the army has voiced concern over its weight and inability to meet critical performance parameters.
:rotfl: ... the same IA whose 4 rounds of artillery competitive trials spanning a decade involving who’s who of world manufacturers couldn’t succeed meeting its brochuritist specs
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

Part of the delay is due to this trust deficit

Covid delays production of Dhanush guns
...

Sources said after building the entire gun, each piece has to be proven fit for use after trials. The ranges are in other states and access to the area was not possible due to the lockdown. The ranges are located in two different corners of the country, they said.

...
Another interesting tidbit
...

Though based on Swedish Bofors, Dhanush is an advanced weapon system with higher range and accuracy. It took a series of trials for the army to finally place an order for 114. The guns have fired 5,000 rounds during trials to get the final clearance. This was a record on its own.

...
Vips
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Dont know if this is a hack job but the timing of this report coming in now just when the Athos VS ATAGS issue is hotting up is really interesting!!!!

COVID, Production Quality Concerns Delay Induction of ‘Desi Bofors’ Dhanush By Army.

The much anticipated large-scale induction of the Dhanush artillery guns, also known as ‘Desi Bofors’, has been hit due to the Covid-19 pandemic as well as production quality concerns flagged by the Army.

Since April 2019, when the induction started, only 12 of the indigenously built long-range artillery guns have been delivered. This is far below the 18 guns required to make a full regiment.

Incidentally, the first six guns were delivered in April 2019 itself and more of the 155mm x 45mm Dhanush were to be produced subsequently. The delay meant that the first regiment of Dhanush, which was to be raised by the end of 2019, had not been completed by then and the date was later pushed to March 2020.

Furthermore, while the Army is satisfied with the guns in terms of fire power and mobility, it has flagged multiple concerns regarding the production quality. Dhanush is being manufactured by the Gun Carriage Factory (CGF) in Madhya Pradesh’s Jabalpur, which comes under the state-run Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

“The production system has still not stabilised. After integrated firing checks, issues have cropped with regard to the hydraulics, sight and even mounting in some cases,” a source said.

Sources further noted that the Army is awaiting the production system to stabilise so that a larger number of guns, which is an advanced variant of the Bofors, can be inducted.

Incidentally, the CBI had registered a case in 2017 against a Delhi-based firm and unidentified officials of the Gun Carriage Factory for China-made parts camouflaged as those ‘Made in Germany’ finding their way to the production line of Dhanush.

Covid Delayed Production Too

Another issue that has delayed the production is the Covid-19 pandemic which has halted the work at the factory for quite some time now.

According to sources familiar with the matter, several cases of Covid emerged at the Jabalpur factory.

The national lockdown last year and the pandemic also meant that the supply chain got affected, sources said. OFB officials said t that initial manufacturing plans faced certain constraints in the supply chain “which have largely been settled”. They said that the pandemic had a widespread global impact but the OFB is making “all efforts to ensure timely supplies”.

They added that further production of guns is underway. However, they did not respond to a query on the quality concerns raised by the Army.

Army Has Ordered 114 Dhanush

Dhanush passed its final test at Pokhran in June 2018, after trials in high altitude areas like Sikkim and Leh and in hot and humid weather in Balasore, Odisha and Babina in Jhansi. The GCF got the Dhanush project in October 2011 and the first prototype was built in 2014. The Army had ordered 114 Dhanush guns in 2018.

A towed howitzer with a strike range of 38 km, Dhanush has been developed on the basis of the first phase of Transfer of Technology (ToT) deal as part of the Bofors contract in the late 1980s.

However, the Swedish Bofors company (now owned by Britain’s BAE System) could not complete the ToT as the deal got embroiled in a major political row following allegations of kickbacks under the then Rajiv Gandhi government.

The Bofors gun subsequently became the backbone of the Indian Army’s operation in the 1999 Kargil conflict with its pinpoint accuracy in targeting enemy positions.

Costing about Rs 14.5 crore a piece (Meaning this 45 Caliber gun is more expensive then the Israeli 52 caliber Athos), Dhanush is equipped with an inertial navigation-based sighting system, auto-laying facility, onboard ballistic computation, and an advanced day and night direct firing system.

The self-propulsion unit of the gun allows it to be easily deployed in mountainous terrain.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Question now is what is the per unit cost of the Kalyani 45 Caliber and Bharat 52 gun?
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Its possible that Army QA is also stalling to ensure the inventory is starving to justify imports. Can't put it past them.

Cost will be high as the numbers ordered are quite small.
And why is the cost an Army problem it the MoD and FM problem to fund it?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

A similar trick was played before Kargil, when Army Q&A kept rejecting OFB 155mm shells, while imports in those days at more than USD 1000 per shell were being done. Then suddenly during Kargil when the imported shells were used up , then suddenly OFB shells were airlifted and used to good effect in Kargil.

Not saying OFB is perfect but the import lobby is well entrenched within this nation.
Anujan
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Anujan »

Also how do we know what the unit cost of ATHOS is?

For domestic products we know the all up costs. For international products it will end up like the vikramaditya or T90 saga:

"Gun is 1 crore onlee. Does not come with barrel. That is 20 crore follow on order. Also breech block is extra. Thats 10 core more. By the way the FCS will only fire our ammo. You have to import that too*"

* Happened for T90
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Yes, all this shows that there is a significant import lobby in the services that is allowed to sustain itself despite seven years of a highly nationalist govt. All these press reports help show where they lurk.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by YashG »

ramana wrote:Yes, all this shows that there is a significant import lobby in the services that is allowed to sustain itself despite seven years of a highly nationalist govt. All these press reports help show where they lurk.
Post parrikar, our nationalist government has not really bothered for MoD. Or else we would have a better defence minister. If wish the same amount of will power was shown in pushing OFB corporatisation as for other far less important bills;
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Philip »

Anujan,the VkikA is a wrong comparison. There was no worthwhile CV available anywhere at that time for the IN to retain its carrier capability.The RN Illustrious CVs were smaller than the Viraat/ Hermes and could operate only Sea Harriers. The Varyag and the
Gorshkov/ Kiec class cruiser/ CVs were what was available.The Varyag's hull wasn't in too good shape,was much larger,no port in India could handle her,so a conversion of the Gorky was decided upon. Both Ru and IN tech. experts inspected the vessel. Unfortunately cost estimates and difficulty of the conversion were underestimated. UKR gave no drawings and the entire rewiring had to be done.In fact,what we ultimately got after extensive replacement of major components, was a virtual brand new ship which will last for 4 decades+.

Reg. T-90,Scorpene and other systems,esp. the Scorpene 5 yrs. delay and way over budget, poor MOD negotiations and legal teams brought in by the firangs, saw that the agreements were heavily skewed in favour of the OEMs. The 3 service are deliberately kept out of negotiations and contract finalisation by the MOD, why may you ask?

In Oz, the French tricks have been discovered by Oz reg. the huge sub deal for 12 subs.Costs kept skyrocketing during negotiations for conv.Barracuda subs,which the French are now trying to dump onto us for ourfollow-on Scorpenes and 6 SSNs! We will be making the biggest mistake ever if we go in for more French subs of either conv. or nuclear.
Oz is now negotiating to buy 12 German type U-214 boats. as a plan B if as is likely, the French deal is dropped.

It will be a devastating blow to the Atman. policy of the GOI if ATAGS is dumped for a firang piece. The mentioned flaws do not appear insurmountable and if production of the same is given to the pvt. sector too,the req. being so huge, costs will come down
and we would've established a world-beating capability in arty, superior to any western or eastern product! This is what is scaring the established OEMs so much,why ATHOS is being touted so much apart from the massive order.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Philip wrote:so a conversion of the Gorky was decided upon. Both Ru and IN tech. experts inspected the vessel. Unfortunately cost estimates and difficulty of the conversion were underestimated. UKR gave no drawings and the entire rewiring had to be done.
What a pathetic and laughable attempt to deflect blame from Russia to Ukraine. Claiming Ukraine did not give drawings to Russia about the wiring and hence Russia jacked up the price for the carrier. Who are you trying to fool? Russia and Ukraine were not separate countries and constituted the Soviet Union when the aircraft carrier was being built and to claim that Russian Navy's command office or Design Bureau or the Central office would not have records, drawings and blue prints is :lol:

Good try but nobody is going to be fooled. Try and come up with something more intelligent.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

I see this as an improvement. He has gone from blaming the IN for the Russians jacking up the price a few years back to blaming Ukraine now.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The absence of design drawings for wiring of the ship increases the refit cost by 2.1 billion dollars.

Mother Russia must never be called to account for any thing. It is always India's fault. When not India then Ukraine. But never Russia.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Maria »

Eta ty maskirova tavarish Admiral, da?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Luit wrote:
Vips wrote:Not to Import is an ideal that no one can deny. But if we rely on OFB to deliver then God save us. Today OFB cannot or is not delivering an improved gun based on 80's technology inspite of having access to its blue prints, drawings and all technical data which was transferred to it.
This gun has been extensively tested over many years by the Indian Army. It is an evolution of the FH 77 which is a potent weapon. The Israeli gun is an evolution of the TIG 2000 - an ordinary gun purchased by Botswana, Cameroon and Uganda.
Vips wrote: OFB started work on Dhanush only when it saw the writing on the wall with substantial work being done by Kalyani and Tata. More then a a service offering to the nation Dhanush was and is only a desperate survival measure by the PSU. Its MGS offering in partnership with BEML based on a 8X8 is already outdated with all the top comparable superior systems coming on a 6x6 platform.
OFB started work on the Dhanush when V K Singh was CoAS. Back then, OFB worked on the project enthusiastically even though they were guaranteed assembly rights for imported systems. They had a 52 cal version ready in 2015, which they did not release as it would compete with the ATAGS project. Work done by Kalyani and Tata are praiseworthy. DRDO, OFB, Kalyani and Tata are working together to build India's Artillery power. All should be suitably rewarded by entire TGS contract for ATAGS and limited orders [400 nos] for Dhanush.
OFB started work on a 45-cal upgraded Bofors right after Kargil war!!! For those who came in late or those with short memories, please search on Google. OFB had displayed an upgraded 45-cal bofors and a upgraded 155mm, 45-cal M46 gun prototypes in 2003. They were publicly displayed at DefExpo 2003 in Delhi.
Try searching for picture of DefExpo 2003 and you might find the pics. i have posted the same on BRF a few times in the past.

The guns have been tested extensively so the news about quality concerns seems suspicious.
OFB was very gungho about the development of the Dhanush guns and even IA seemed happy when the orders were finally placed.

Only COVID cannot be the cause of so much delay. A total of only 12 guns seem to have been delayed. With constant news about ATHOS guns for the past few months, there seems to be some black stuff in the lentils.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Kakkaji »

Manu Pubby's latest. Behind paywall

[https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 290693.cms]Army looks to revive artillery gun plan with Israel to bridge critical gaps[/url]
The army is considering a proposal that could breathe back life into a stalled artillery gun-making programme with Israel to cover a critical gap in its weapons profile amid continuing tension in Ladakh, ET has learnt.

ET has gathered that delay in an indigeneous gun-making programme, which is unlikely to fully fructify before 2026 and the unpredictable situation on the China front has injected fresh concern.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Philip »

Vips,the breakup of the USSR saw the spolis of milware go to each republic,why Ru had to import UKR marine engines for all its warships,Antonov in the UKR pocket, etc. Pl. read official historical facts about the Gorky acquisition. They were also told to me by a sr. naval offr. part of the inspection/ acquisition team.
Even for the extra 4 Talwar FFGs we're acquiring from Russia, 2 to be built at GSL, the engines are coming from the UKR. Ru is only now getting its marine warship engind xct together with its own facility in Russia after the UKR spat ,Crimea rejoining Russia, saw
milware from the UKR for Ru weapon systems cease.

Back to arty. The idea of extra orders of K-9s is a good one.It will keep L&Ts facility alive and humming with work and steadily meeting part of the shortfall until the OFB gets its act together and hopefully ATAGS is selected and built with pvt. entities along with the OFB.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Kakkaji wrote:Manu Pubby's latest. Behind paywall

[https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 290693.cms]Army looks to revive artillery gun plan with Israel to bridge critical gaps[/url]
The army is considering a proposal that could breathe back life into a stalled artillery gun-making programme with Israel to cover a critical gap in its weapons profile amid continuing tension in Ladakh, ET has learnt.

ET has gathered that delay in an indigeneous gun-making programme, which is unlikely to fully fructify before 2026 and the unpredictable situation on the China front has injected fresh concern.
As long as the tendency to take short cuts remains. India will never be self-reliant in defence.

If industrial capacity is a limiting factor. Invest in augmenting it. Take a short cut and keep importing forever.

If production issues are there. Spend time fixing it. Keep Talking short cuts and keep importing forever.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by sanjayc »

The army considers only two options: OFB and imports, and settles for the latter as the former cannot deliver. They pretend as if Indian private defence companies don't exist.
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Yet at the same time they don't have any problems buying from foreign private companies.
la.khan
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by la.khan »

I don't know what to make of this. Hopefully, something good for the Indian army & artillery.

Bharat Forge to set up new factory for defence business, to acquire land for Rs 240 crore
These new assets which will come up at Khed City, will manufacture speciality vehicles, certain systems and aggregates that go into artillery guns and an assembly plant which will also house a testing facility, a top Bharat Forge official said.
As far as defence orders for the Indian armed forces are concerned Kalyani added that the company has already received an order for one of its platforms. “We are working on two other platforms for India and we see tremendous opportunities going forward,” Kalyani said.
“Our product (ATAGS) is ready and our facilities are aligned. We can manufacture four guns a month right now and in two months we can go to six guns a month and by the end of the year we can go to 12 guns a month,” Kalyani added.
Maybe, more knowledgeable folks can glean more important information from the article. Posting here FWIW.
srai
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^
Without orders, production capacity is a waste of money. How many more rounds of endless trials still left before IA places a small token order in its wait-and-see attitude? Bulk orders remain far to be seen. Piecemeal orders disrupt any gains in the production ecosystem flow. Never learn. Imports seen as Holy Grail.
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

srai wrote:^^^
Without orders, production capacity is a waste of money. How many more rounds of endless trials still left before IA places a small token order in its wait-and-see attitude? Bulk orders remain far to be seen. Piecemeal orders disrupt any gains in the production ecosystem flow. Never learn. Imports seen as Holy Grail.

The worst part from piecemeal order POV is that none of the Indian manufacturers will ever learn how to solve issues associated with mass production.

Its will always be boutique manufacturing that will dominate. With highly skilled engineers producing single item at one time. It will never reach assembly lines. With bulk manufacturing and batch production.

Eventually we will lose strength as a nation state and be financially exhausted. By that time the PRC will be the worlds most powerful nation.
Vips
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

la.khan wrote:I don't know what to make of this. Hopefully, something good for the Indian army & artillery.

Bharat Forge to set up new factory for defence business, to acquire land for Rs 240 crore
These new assets which will come up at Khed City, will manufacture speciality vehicles, certain systems and aggregates that go into artillery guns and an assembly plant which will also house a testing facility, a top Bharat Forge official said.
As far as defence orders for the Indian armed forces are concerned Kalyani added that the company has already received an order for one of its platforms. “We are working on two other platforms for India and we see tremendous opportunities going forward,” Kalyani said.
“Our product (ATAGS) is ready and our facilities are aligned. We can manufacture four guns a month right now and in two months we can go to six guns a month and by the end of the year we can go to 12 guns a month,” Kalyani added.
Maybe, more knowledgeable folks can glean more important information from the article. Posting here FWIW.
12 Guns a month means 96 guns a year. This closely aligns with Isreal's plans to supply 400 Athos guns to India by 2025 under full TOT to Bharat Forge with 70% parts to be made in India.
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