Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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srai
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^
Vips, for your ATHOS add the time it will take to get it through the infamous 13-step procurement process :wink: That contract itself will take a few years. Then factor in order lead-in times of 24-36 months to first lot deliveries. So your 2025 for 400 ATHOS remains an elusive dream. Nothing quick about importing it as a “stop-gap”.
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The worst part about getting 400 Athos by 2025 would be that the it will be at the cost of 400 ATAGS and the learnings in mass production that will come from ATAGS.
srai
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

^^^
Rest assured no artillery imports gonna happen despite recent paid media infomercials. With so many domestic options available, both public and private enterprises, which GoI will be courageous enough to “fast-track” imports and then suffer continued corruption allegations?
la.khan
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by la.khan »

Vips wrote:12 Guns a month means 96 guns a year. This closely aligns with Isreal's plans to supply 400 Athos guns to India by 2025 under full TOT to Bharat Forge with 70% parts to be made in India.
Vips ji: Minor correction - 12 guns a month means 144 guns per year.
Philip
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Philip »

If reports are to be believed,to counter the Chins,ATHOS is to be fast-tracked for the 400, while ATAGS will come along in bulk later. Who knows,we might have after Athos,Porthos,Aramis and D-Artagnan too!
darshan
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by darshan »

If the Chinese virus hasn't brought any change then nothing will. The virus came in 2019 and this is 2021.
nachiket
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nachiket »

If OFB was doing its job well, it would have been very easy for the MoD to tell the Army to forget about Athos and buy the Dhanush. Dhanush was supposed to have orders for 414 in total not just 114. It was supposed to have been the stop-gap till ATAGS was ready. It still can be if there is will in the MoD to override the Army's wishes and OFB can get its act together. It would be foolish to have hope for that though.
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

The other side of the equation is that MOD is in control of both Army & OFB. The OFB related issues are for the MOD to resolve & convince the Army to go with Dhanush.


Alternately, MOD is the ultimate owner of the Dhanush IP. Nothing stops them form giving the production rights to the Highest bidder Indian Pvt. sector company. The guns can be manufacture on cost +fixed % profit basis.
ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

darshan wrote:If the Chinese virus hasn't brought any change then nothing will. The virus came in 2019 and this is 2021.

It is a very potent virus. Time become immaterial when exposed to this virus.
srai
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

darshan wrote:If the Chinese virus hasn't brought any change then nothing will. The virus came in 2019 and this is 2021.
Not clear what you are implying?

GoI along with all other apparatus at its disposal have been consumed in tackling COVID-19 pandemic so far and will continue for another year. Third wave will happen; country needs to be better prepared. Normalcy likely only in 2023. Hopefully by then National healthcare facilities and healthcare reach and healthcare equity improves in the process.

People are bagging OFB and the likes for their tardiness but a lot of lives in their vast supplier ecosystem have been lost. HAL, alone, lost 100 employees to COVID. Add to that all the lockdowns and border closures disrupting flows of people, goods and supplies. Not to mention families lost of those employees and its mental/emotional impact.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

With Netanyahu out in Israel, not sure about Athos buy.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

One more muzzle strike in February from the first batch of 6 guns.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 524828.cms
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Very clear the COIs are a sham and they are not getting to the root of the matter.
Report says Dhanush had 4 muzzle strikes so far and ATAGS and M-777 also had a strike each.
Incidentally all under Army trials.
basant
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by basant »

Could the problem with the ammunition?
niran
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

basant wrote:Could the problem with the ammunition?
ammo manufacturing defect, ammo incorrect storage and handling and crew not following fire sequence sequence any of the above in singular or combination of the above.
for example M777 incident was not following sop, crew were cleaning mopping chamber at 6th round instead of inspection by gun commander then either clean or load depending on soot residue in chamber,
basant
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by basant »

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't know the reason with M777. A brand new gun was lost. :(
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

One more thing is what you learnt on Bofors with its 39 caliber gun barrel is not applicable to Dhanush/Sarang with 45 calibers and ATAGS with 52 caliber.
Reason is longer barrel gives more chance for muzzle strike in case of an issue.
And issue could be many things and add barrel wear.

I really think they should go for 8 gun batteries instead of 6 guns to ensure the guns operate with proper wear and tear.
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

May be the issue is the muzzle brake design itself?

Change it to some thing like this

Image

from

Image
Khalsa
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Khalsa »

Image

246-year-old Ordnance Factory Board scrapped; 7 new companies to take over


https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... 69397?s=08

Huge and possibly explains the slow pace ?!?!
Prem Kumar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/critical- ... illery-gun

The wording sounds like this will be a long drawn out series of trials ..........

If you look at the comments to Manu Pubby's tweet, it shows the level of disgust people have with the Army's artillery testing capabilities/intentions

https://twitter.com/manupubby/status/14 ... 5238372353
Vivek K
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

The comments in the Twitter link are hilarious!! I guess ATAGs need to be capable of firing the Brahmos and ability to fly after firing a round to evade enemy retaliatory fire.
hemant_sai
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by hemant_sai »

But how those tweets or posts here are going to help? Will it matter to malefic elements in the system?

Here 2 parties are directly related and impacted.
DRDO with their product being dragged for never ending trials and at times sabotaged with requirements which are not absolute necessity.
Other party is soldiers who will be on the battle field, sacrificing their lives.

Why both these parties are not making efforts to counter those malefic elements?

How hard it is to expose requirements forced on Arjun?

Even today Army can give free hand to DRDO to come up with Arjun version with less than 60 tons but still at par with T90?
Why such proposals are not made? They can go for T90 but not ready with Arjun which can be close to T90 with less than 60 ton weight.

At times, I wonder what is stopping DRDO to counter those malefic elements?

Most probably it is not limited in Army but rather trio of MoD-Army-DRDO, that is why they are so successful in their plans. And of course Media not willing to give attention to this area.
srai
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

People dismiss DRDO/DPSU et al.But where are the orders for privately developed products like Kalyani 155mm offerings? Many years have gone past. Some emphasize imports and strategic partnership model but how about locally equivalent products being sidelined? No wonder private companies don’t want to participate and India stuck with public entities in DRDO/DPSU. Can’t complain if no one else fulfills them role because of endless trials and lack of orders, especially orders in bulk. Impossible specs, Piecemeal orders and long gaps between orders. Not profitable.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

This is where successive Army Chiefs have failed. The last few chiefs have been great for us, in terms of surgical strikes & showing kshatriyata. But none of them have cleaned up the mess that's our artillery & armor procurement.

Not one of our defense journos (even decent ones like Nitin Ghokale etc) have actually posed this question to any of the COAS
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by darshhan »

Prem Kumar wrote:This is where successive Army Chiefs have failed. The last few chiefs have been great for us, in terms of surgical strikes & showing kshatriyata. But none of them have cleaned up the mess that's our artillery & armor procurement.

Not one of our defense journos (even decent ones like Nitin Ghokale etc) have actually posed this question to any of the COAS
The interview questions these days have to be sent before the interview itself. So even if a journalist will have this question, it would most likely be vetted out. Many times the interviews especially those appearing on print media are done by email. That pretty much precludes tough questions. The journalist himself has limited control over the process. One can even say that such interviews are less of interviews but more of a PR exercise for the concerned officer.
Maria
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Maria »

darshhan wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:This is where successive Army Chiefs have failed. The last few chiefs have been great for us, in terms of surgical strikes & showing kshatriyata. But none of them have cleaned up the mess that's our artillery & armor procurement.

Not one of our defense journos (even decent ones like Nitin Ghokale etc) have actually posed this question to any of the COAS
The interview questions these days have to be sent before the interview itself. So even if a journalist will have this question, it would most likely be vetted out. Many times the interviews especially those appearing on print media are done by email. That pretty much precludes tough questions. The journalist himself has limited control over the process. One can even say that such interviews are less of interviews but more of a PR exercise for the concerned officer.
What is our CDS' twitter handle, can't seem to find it.
darshhan
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by darshhan »

Maria wrote:
What is our CDS' twitter handle, can't seem to find it.
Am unable to find it.
VinodTK
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

From: India Today
By: Sandeep Unnithan

The gun battle inside South Block
Over the past few months, the ministry of defence (MoD) and the Indian Army have been at loggerheads over the acquisition of 400 towed artillery guns for Rs 4,000 crore. The army’s proposal for acquiring 400 howitzers from Israel had reached the stage of approval by the director general (acquisitions) in September 2019, but was shelved after indigenous artillery programmes began showing promise. Earlier this year, as a nine-month standoff with China eased off in eastern Ladakh, the army revived the gun import proposal, citing an “urgent operational necessity” on the northern borders to justify the import of 20 regiments (each regiment has 20 guns). Adding to the army’s urgency is the fact that deliveries of the ‘Dhanush’, an indigenously-built version of the Swedish FH-77B Bofors gun, have slowed down. Once the DG (acquisitions) clears the proposal, it can be sent to the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) for the final approval.

Defence ministry officials, however, want the army’s towed gun import to be scrapped, arguing that any off-the-shelf import of guns at this stage will seriously impact indigenous artillery development. The MoD’s Department of Defence Production (DoDP) is backing the Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS), designed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and produced indigenously by their industry partners in the private sector, Bharat Forge and Tata Advanced Systems Ltd. The DoDP considers the howitzer programme to be a test for the government’s Aatmanirbhar Bharat programme to achieve self-sufficiency in defence and is arguing for a larger number of ATAGS to be procured from the Indian industry, including from the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

The deadlock continues even as a December 31, 2021, deadline to stop imports of howitzers looms on the horizon. Howitzers of the 155/ 52 calibre are among the 101 items on the ‘negative list’ released by the MoD in August 2020. Now called the ‘positive indigenisation list’, it is meant to discourage imports in categories where local industry is self-sufficient. In 2007, when there were no indigenous programmes, the MoD had approved an army proposal to import and assemble 1,580 foreign howitzers for Rs 12,640 crore—400 howitzers were to be imported off the shelf and 1,180 were to be built within the country through technology transfers. Since then, three indigenous gun programmes have slowly started delivering guns to the army—the ‘Dhanush’, the ATAGS and the OFB’s kit that upgrades existing Soviet-built 130 mm guns to 155 mm ‘Sharang’ howitzers.

Indian industry officials worry the 400-howitzer import will kill indigenous industry. “Such an order at a stage when Indian guns have matured will give a foreign gun maker a foot in the door,” says a developer who wished to not be named. “It will enable future localised production of foreign guns and kill indigenous industry and innovation.”

In April this year, top army officials told the MoD about the time, cost and operational advantages of Israel’s 155 mm ‘ATHOS’ (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System). Under an accelerated delivery schedule, Israeli manufacturer Elbit has assured the army that the first 12 guns will be delivered within 14 months of signing the contract and all 400 guns will be delivered within 54 months. The Israeli gun’s 15-tonne weight offers it an advantage over the 18-tonne ATAGS, particularly in difficult terrain without properly developed road networks. Moreover, ATHOS costs Rs 9 crore per gun, while the ATAGS costs Rs 22 crore per gun. To sweeten the deal, the Israeli vendor has reportedly promised to source 70 per cent of the gun’s components from Indian industry to whom they will provide complete ToT (transfer of technology). ATHOS, the army told the MoD, is a one-time purchase to meet immediate operational requirements without impacting the indigenous programmes. But the ATHOS has problems of its own—it is not in service even in the Israeli army and had suffered structural failure during trials in India some years ago.

New offers from the Israeli vendor could open up a potential minefield for the MoD, for they could mean modifications in the original Acceptance of Necessity (AON) of 2007 and the Request for Proposal issued in 2011. These deviations would need either a fresh CCS approval or, as in the case of the MMRCA fighter deal in 2016, a scrapping of the tender and a direct government-to-government buy, as was done with the 36 Rafale jets.

MoD sources told india today that no final decision has been taken on the proposal yet. “The Ministry of Defence is holding consultations with all concerned on this issue, keeping in mind the requirement of achieving the objectives of Aatmanirbhar Bharat, as well as giving the necessary teeth to our Armed Forces. We have to work towards indigenous design, development and production of weapon systems to reduce dependence on arms imports and this has to be achieved without compromising the objectives of national security,” they say.

Meanwhile, the DRDO-designed ATAGS successfully completed 90 days of winter trials in Sikkim between January and March 2021, putting a September 2020 incident, when an ATAGS barrel burst during firing trials, behind them. The guns displayed their mobility across a total of 500 km in night conditions, at temperatures of 15 degrees Celsius below zero and at altitudes of over 15,000 feet, and fired 160 rounds without any failures. “The gun has successfully cleared its winter trials and, if the army wants, they can be immediately deployed in the northern borders,” says a developer who wished to not be named.

Developers say their indigenous guns negotiated all kinds of narrow- and low-load classification bridges in self-propelled mode and put to rest apprehensions about the ATAGS’ mobility in mountainous terrain. The Elbit gun, they noted was put through far less rigorous trials in field trials in 2017, when it had been tested for mobility in high altitude areas only during day time. It was towed to Lukrep, the northernmost point of North Sikkim on the Tibetan plateau, and was tested at night in the snow-covered Menla and Changu Lake to ascertain operational efficiency.

Developers say the rarefied mountain air theoretically makes it possible for the gun to achieve ranges of up to 60 km, which would allow the army to engage the enemy’s brigade headquarters, bridges and fuel dumps deep in its territory, giving them a tactical advantage from the beginning of a conflict.

Experts, however, believe that ATAGS needs time to mature and that the army needs to fix the problematic Dhanush programme rather than push for imports. The Dhanush was a gun the army’s artillery directorate pushed the OFB to produce nearly a decade ago. It was built from blueprints supplied by Bofors AB in the 1980s. “I don’t think ATAGS is the alternative for urgent operational requirements,” says Lt General P. Ravi Shankar, former DG, artillery, who was involved in the design and development of both indigenous guns. “Why is a combat-proven gun system like the Dhanush not being operationalised despite production orders being given over a year ago? The programme needs hard decisions. If the Dhanush has a problem, it needs to be fixed. Call the original Bofors designers if need be,” he says. OFB officials, however, deny the gun has an operational defect and say that the first 12 guns were delivered to the army in 2019. They believe the order for 20 guns can be completed by the end of this year. It remains to be seen how the government’s June 16 decision to break up the monolithic OFB into seven companies will impact the Dhanush programme. In the short term, at least, fixing the Dhanush could give the army the guns it so badly needs.
Very sad state of affairs
Prasad
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prasad »

If this is actually true, there really isn't much to say anymore. Cleanse the ranks that are involved and push the ATAGS. There is far more at stake here than just a few tens of pieces of artillery. Especially at this time when COVID has ravaged the country and economic activity is priority #1.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Athos won't be imported. If it needs firing a general or two so be it. No more crap.
Now we know why guns are failing trials.
Because they have to so imports can be justified.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

Just as the artillery import door is closing in Dec 2021 (negative list), all these efforts to quickly jam the ATHOS import through the door.

Cards are being shown. Tackle those elements.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

It makes one wonder if the Dhanush is being deliberately slowed/delayed by various elements to justify ATHOS import.

Seen this playbook many times.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Kakkaji »

Whatever happened to the Bharat 52? Has it passed the trials yet?

BF had promised to deliver 2 Bharat 52's a week if given orders. IMHO it was a good enough gun. It should have been ordered parallel with Dhanush. The Army would have had a few hundred by now. :(
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

Kakkaji wrote:Whatever happened to the Bharat 52? Has it passed the trials yet?

BF had promised to deliver 2 Bharat 52's a week if given orders. IMHO it was a good enough gun. It should have been ordered parallel with Dhanush. The Army would have had a few hundred by now. :(
Gun lineage is from proven Gerald Bull/Austrian 155mm GC-45/GHN-45. Many artillery systems have its lineage including the South African and Chinese. Many thousands have been produced and used in conflicts since the 1980s.

https://www.ajaishukla.com/2012/03/defe ... o.html?m=1


To this end, the Kalyani Group has imported from Austrian gun manufacturer Maschinenfabrik Liezen (MFL) a service version of its famous 155 mm, 45-calibre, autonomous gun system, which had impressed Indian gunners when they evaluated it in the mid-1980s (though they bought the Bofors gun instead).

The Kalyani Group has also bought, knocked down and transported to India an entire operational artillery gun factory from Swiss company RUAG.

srai
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

Prediction: if the ATHOS import is approved and contract signed before negative list activates, then it will be another Bofors corruption scandal in the making. Is it worth it?
srai
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by srai »

ramana wrote:
Now we know why guns are failing trials.
Because they have to so imports can be justified.
Can’t rule out sabotage.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

We used to dread our Chemistry practicals attendant.
Even if you could do the tests accurately, we still had to take care of chai pani for he could fail you by giving the wrong chemical to identify in the petri dish.
So I never trust the testing guys for they can fix the outcome.
Vivek K
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vivek K »

ramana wrote:Athos won't be imported. If it needs firing a general or two so be it. No more crap.
Now we know why guns are failing trials.
Because they have to so imports can be justified.
Ramana ji - that is what I’ve been saying forever. These corrupt, treasonous people have destroyed our proud country and made it stand like a beggar begging for arms.
Maria
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Maria »

srai wrote:
Kakkaji wrote:Whatever happened to the Bharat 52? Has it passed the trials yet?

BF had promised to deliver 2 Bharat 52's a week if given orders. IMHO it was a good enough gun. It should have been ordered parallel with Dhanush. The Army would have had a few hundred by now. :(
Gun lineage is from proven Gerald Bull/Austrian 155mm GC-45/GHN-45. Many artillery systems have its lineage including the South African and Chinese. Many thousands have been produced and used in conflicts since the 1980s.

https://www.ajaishukla.com/2012/03/defe ... o.html?m=1


To this end, the Kalyani Group has imported from Austrian gun manufacturer Maschinenfabrik Liezen (MFL) a service version of its famous 155 mm, 45-calibre, autonomous gun system, which had impressed Indian gunners when they evaluated it in the mid-1980s (though they bought the Bofors gun instead).

The Kalyani Group has also bought, knocked down and transported to India an entire operational artillery gun factory from Swiss company RUAG.

We cannot let their hardwork go to waste.
RKumar

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by RKumar »

It T90 vs Arjun saga written all over, I hope CDS and MoD put their authority to block the import. Bloody order ATAGS from private players and let OFB go bankrupt if they don’t want to work. Enough is enough
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