Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

SRajesh · Post by **SRajesh** » 20 Feb 2023 11:49

https://theprint.in/defence/new-barrel- ... t/1378821/
Any idea what is happening with Desi system- ULH (Kalyani product)
Are they getting any orders or we still after the M777

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Feb 2023 12:43

I had spoken to someone from Mahindra defence Prithla. Where 120 out of the 145 of the guns were assembled.

Currently they are only manufacturing barrels of the M777. Those are going to the US.

The assembly line for rest of the system has been dismantled. With the shed being repurposed for the assembly of the ASLV.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Feb 2023 18:08

It seems that India and US are going to jointly work on the ERCA on the M777.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 20 Feb 2023 21:21

Indian Army orders 100 additional K9 howitzers-Kapil Kajal, Janes

The Indian Army has ordered additional 155 mm/52 calibre self-propelled howitzers (SPHs) known as K9 Vajra-T designed by South Korea's Hanwha Aerospace, the company told Janes.

A Hanwha spokesperson told Janes that the company has received an additional order of 100 K9s from India, which is in process now.

“[An order of] another 100 numbers [of K9s] is being discussed and can be closed within 2023. We [Hanwha] are already in touch with our partner Larsen & Toubro (L&T) [regarding the order],” he said.

“These additional quantities under repeat order will include the K9 upgraded with high-altitude area application as well as existing [technologies on] K9s,” the spokesperson added.

The Indian Army has 100 in-service K9 Vajra-Ts, which are the Indian-manufactured variant of the K9 Thunder, with 50% of their components being manufactured in India.

According to Janes Land Warfare Platforms: Artillery & Air Defence, India's requirement for 100 NATO-compatible SPHs was issued in 1994, and initially, the country evaluated bids from mainly Western countries. By 2010, the tender had failed to arrive at a solution that met India's requirements.

In 2013, Rosoboronexport's 2S19M1-155 entered into the competition with the K9 Thunder submitted by South Korea for India's requirement of 100 SPHs. The K9 was selected in September 2015.

100 in service, 100 ordered again, another 100 expected to be ordered by EoY.
300Qty is a good boost.

hgupta · Post by **hgupta** » 21 Feb 2023 02:54

MeshaVishwas wrote:Indian Army orders 100 additional K9 howitzers-Kapil Kajal, Janes
The Indian Army has ordered additional 155 mm/52 calibre self-propelled howitzers (SPHs) known as K9 Vajra-T designed by South Korea's Hanwha Aerospace, the company told Janes.

A Hanwha spokesperson told Janes that the company has received an additional order of 100 K9s from India, which is in process now.

“[An order of] another 100 numbers [of K9s] is being discussed and can be closed within 2023. We [Hanwha] are already in touch with our partner Larsen & Toubro (L&T) [regarding the order],” he said.

“These additional quantities under repeat order will include the K9 upgraded with high-altitude area application as well as existing [technologies on] K9s,” the spokesperson added.

The Indian Army has 100 in-service K9 Vajra-Ts, which are the Indian-manufactured variant of the K9 Thunder, with 50% of their components being manufactured in India.

According to Janes Land Warfare Platforms: Artillery & Air Defence, India's requirement for 100 NATO-compatible SPHs was issued in 1994, and initially, the country evaluated bids from mainly Western countries. By 2010, the tender had failed to arrive at a solution that met India's requirements.

In 2013, Rosoboronexport's 2S19M1-155 entered into the competition with the K9 Thunder submitted by South Korea for India's requirement of 100 SPHs. The K9 was selected in September 2015.
100 in service, 100 ordered again, another 100 expected to be ordered by EoY.
300Qty is a good boost.

300 may be a good boost but to adequately address IA's needs on a 2 front war, the number needs to go up to around 800 to account for reserves & war wastage and attrition.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Feb 2023 07:17

Pratyush good question. Will type my response.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 21 Feb 2023 10:01

Janes has been reporting a lot of "scoops" from Aero India: orders for K9, QRSAM, LORA etc.

Lets wait for official confirmations for these.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Feb 2023 05:41

ramana wrote:Pratyush good question. Will type my response.

Not an artillery guy but quite interested.
The biggest contributors to the inaccuracy of artillery fire are its own and the target location.

Then add variation in atmospheric wind and density but this affects long-range fire.
Next is muzzle velocity variation due to charge chemical composition.

Modern guns like Dhanush have GPS location, atmosphere temperature and density correction via balloon sensors, and a muzzle velocity measuring device. Laser and GPS finder for target.
All these are fed into a computer that provided gun elevation.

Taking the 155mm shell lethality into account (fragments to 150m).
The stated CEP for ERFB BB which is the standard IA shell is 50m at 25 km.
Its probably better but we don't know.

I think it is about half that figure.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Feb 2023 13:33

That helps in a manner of speaking.

I guess, I was thinking in terms of what is CCIP for aircraft with unguided free fall bombs.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 01 Mar 2023 20:25

https://twitter.com/ani_digital/status/ ... 3573732352

Indian Army to buy 307 ATAGS howitzers for deployment along China, Pak border

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Mar 2023 20:31

Finally! About time.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 01 Mar 2023 20:32

wait.... am i dreaming ...... no iam awake.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Mar 2023 20:39

Wait for the order to be placed.

There is still a long way for order to be placed.

MOD has to send it to CCS.

CCS has to approve it.

A long way to go.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 01 Mar 2023 21:10

Pratyush wrote:Wait for the order to be placed.

There is still a long way for order to be placed.

MOD has to send it to CCS.

CCS has to approve it.

A long way to go.

Will happen but as you said lets wait until the signature is done

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 01 Mar 2023 21:22

ashthor wrote:https://twitter.com/ani_digital/status/ ... 3573732352

Indian Army to buy 307 ATAGS howitzers for deployment along China, Pak border

Is it the same "India to buy" 9 squadrons of Tejas Mk2 ?

Sounds so.

mody · Post by **mody** » 01 Mar 2023 22:26

https://m-economictimes-com.cdn.ampproj ... ASCAAgM%3D

Army has sent a request to procure 307 ATAGS guns

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 01 Mar 2023 22:58

We are utilizing left over capital budget before March 31

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 02 Mar 2023 02:37

Army seeks to buy 310 indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System.

The Indian Army has moved a proposal to acquire indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) that can be deployed at high altitude areas and fill critical capability gaps.

A proposal to acquire 310 such towed guns is expected to be cleared by the defence ministry, following which orders can be placed, people aware of the development said.

Designed by DRDO to replace the Bofors towed guns that are the current mainstay 155 mm artillery system in service, ATAGS has been extensively tested by the army in different terrain, from desert areas to high altitude ranges in Sikkim, and have been declared fit for induction.

The ATAGS is an indigenous towed artillery gun system project undertaken in mission mode by the DRDO as a part of the artillery modernisation
programme of the Indian Army. These howitzers are to be produced by Bharat Forge and Tata Defence and Aerospace.

If the normal course of procurement is followed, the two companies - which are developmental partners of DRDO - will be invited to submit commercial bids. The lowest bidder would likely get 60% of the order and the other company would get the balance, provided it agrees to match the lowest price bid.

High altitude performance of the guns is an important factor given the Ladakh border crisis with China. Among the tests conducted by the army were sustained firing drills using just the backup battery at heights of over 13,000 feet and checking performance at extremely low temperature.

NATO standard guns have a chamber size of 23 litres, while the ATAGS is designed for 25 litres, giving it a slightly extended range of 48 km. Given its non-standard chamber, these guns may require bespoke ammunition as the extended size exerts extra strain on current ammunition.

Among the tests conducted were direct fire in day and night on tank-sized targets, sustained firing of 60 rounds per hour, tests for five round bursts and a rapid-fire rate of firing.

While commercial offers are yet to come in, it is estimated that the guns would cost at least Rs 18 crore per piece.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 02 Mar 2023 09:54

Cant wait to dance on ATHOS' grave. Good riddance

The import lobby was strong with that one.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Mar 2023 10:04

Vips wrote:Army seeks to buy 310 indigenous Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System.

Snip....

NATO standard guns have a chamber size of 23 litres, while the ATAGS is designed for 25 litres, giving it a slightly extended range of 48 km. Given its non-standard chamber, these guns may require bespoke ammunition as the extended size exerts extra strain on current ammunition.
Snip....

Anujan,

The import lobby has not given up on ATHOS.

The excerpt in bold shows that they are still trying to influence the decision making process. By spreading canards about the gun using special ammunition.

This is especially when the DRDO has not said anything about so called unique ammunition to be used for the gun.

Sort of the "Torsion Bar suspension" of Arjun.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 02 Mar 2023 11:55

YashG wrote:
ashthor wrote:https://twitter.com/ani_digital/status/ ... 3573732352

Indian Army to buy 307 ATAGS howitzers for deployment along China, Pak border
Is it the same "India to buy" 9 squadrons of Tejas Mk2 ?

Sounds so.

12 squadrons of MK2, by the way. Or the 443 NAG missiles that were going to be ordered.

I will celebrate the day the first deliveries happen. We have seen too many KLPDs with artillery.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 02 Mar 2023 20:42

Folks, EVERY news about an order is met with heavy Ro & Dho followed by bringing up of lack of orders for unrelated systems like Tejas, Arjun etc. Can we keep focus here?

This is an order for an entirely new class of weapon system that has no parallel yet in the word market. Hence 300+ is a good number to operationally test the heck out of the first version. Also ammo issues have been well reported due to more challenging chamber pressure conditions amplifying the ballloting problem of shells with looser manufacturing standards. Hence the comment on article about needing new higher quality shells (and probably charges too). Once khan rolls out his 58 caliber 30 liter cannons for production, we will see similar reports about their need for newer class of shells too. For a change, someone reported a relevant datapoint and we just note that down without imputing a spiel by the ATHOS bhudoos & haramis who dalaal for them.

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 02 Mar 2023 21:18

300+ ATAGS is a very good start. soon there will be variations - MGS, lighter versions.
we also have 100 K9 + 100 (or 200) more in pipeline.
Dhanush orders already in process.
Sharang project doing good.

if we add all up, 155mm artillery will be in a much better position.

lungi dance moment.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 02 Mar 2023 23:27

hnair wrote:
This is an order for an entirely new class of weapon system that has no parallel yet in the word market. Hence 300+ is a good number to operationally test the heck out of the first version.

Operationally test the heck out of it? What kind of rigorous testing was it going through for so long prior? Just commit to a final and total order and makes changes along the way. Not this piecemeal bs.

Admin note: quote relevant parts only

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 03 Mar 2023 02:07

hnair wrote:Folks, EVERY news about an order is met with heavy Ro & Dho followed by bringing up of lack of orders for unrelated systems like Tejas, Arjun etc. Can we keep focus here?

This is an order for an entirely new class of weapon system that has no parallel yet in the word market. Hence 300+ is a good number to operationally test the heck out of the first version. Also ammo issues have been well reported due to more challenging chamber pressure conditions amplifying the ballloting problem of shells with looser manufacturing standards. Hence the comment on article about needing new higher quality shells (and probably charges too). Once khan rolls out his 58 caliber 30 liter cannons for production, we will see similar reports about their need for newer class of shells too. For a change, someone reported a relevant datapoint and we just note that down without imputing a spiel by the ATHOS bhudoos & haramis who dalaal for them.

Firstly no such order exist, this hasn’t even come from the IA’s officially just another one of those reports that springs up out of thin air and cites anonymous sources. There isn’t even DAC clearance for anything more than 150 ATAGS to date.

Secondly citing other projects is pertinent as it shows how these things usually go and the ATAGS saga is playing out exactly like them.

Lastly 300 is an okay number if ordered off the shelf from an existing production line but for the situation india is in this is pitiful. Production capacity follows order size, Kaylani has said they have the capacity to make 1 155 barrel a day, TASL will also be the L2 production partner splitting ATAGS orders most likely. For 300 guns what kind of capacity and investments will they make?

If India is going to have a credible MIC it needs the scale that only a domestic user base can provide. Each and every time that user base goes out of its way to undermine these efforts by keeping orders low after protracted negotiations. Every single industry player goes on the record about this whenever the opportunity arises. One can’t keep sticking one’s head in the sand and getting distracted by shiny things (possibility of limited orders), ATAGS’s story encapsulates the entire drama of the Indian MIC and the limitations.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Mar 2023 07:51

Now with ATAGS saga closing in on finish line, the next target should be longer range tube artillery.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Mar 2023 10:33

- The amount r@ndi rona here is phenomenal.
- Rather than celebrate a good news, we've the perpetual doomsday peddlers.
- If the army has moved the requirement for 310 ATAGS, then in due course we will hear about AON and DAC as well.
- Never mind the selection of the winner amongst TATA and Kalyani for ATAGS (no one spoke about this aspect) and order split amongst them.
- 310 ATAGS guns is 17 artillery regiments (Direct import of Bofors guns was 410 numbers)
- Even @2 ATAGS regiments per arty brigade, we're talking about 7-8 artillery brigades getting the new gun. And new capability which did not exist earlier.
- This news shows that ATAGS is coming - What we need to wait and see is what gun comes under the ~15 ton category for which RFP was released sometime back.
- Even then I had said, we've reached a stage in artillery development and procurement where we can have horses for courses.

PS: Someone earlier mentioned about 443 NAG and 13 NAMICA - well, it seems you missed the R-Day parade. NAMICA has entered operational service with first lot having been inducted.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Mar 2023 11:29

Thakur_B wrote:Now with ATAGS saga closing in on finish line, the next target should be longer range tube artillery.

Longer range than the ATAGS? Are you talking about special longer ranged ammo like ramjet powered rounds or something?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Mar 2023 11:30

rohitvats wrote: - 310 ATAGS guns is 17 artillery regiments (Direct import of Bofors guns was 410 numbers)
- Even @2 ATAGS regiments per arty brigade, we're talking about 7-8 artillery brigades getting the new gun. And new capability which did not exist earlier.

Rohit, will the remaining FH-77B's be retired when the ATAGS start coming in or can they still soldier on for longer? Even a decade back the reports said barely half the original number were still in service. No idea what the state is now.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Mar 2023 11:55

No need to retire bofors, almost all parts including barrels are made at OFB, we will just upgrade the FCR and other equipment based on Dhanush programme and use them. Give our huge Paki and China border, we need every 155 mm gun and shell we can get hold off

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Mar 2023 13:08

nachiket wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Now with ATAGS saga closing in on finish line, the next target should be longer range tube artillery.
Longer range than the ATAGS? Are you talking about special longer ranged ammo like ramjet powered rounds or something?

He is talking about longer calibre tubes and higher capacity chambers. That is the next step in increasing the 155 mm arty ranges.

Even though the ramjet shells are under development. India will also have to develop sub calibre shells as well. The Americans had developed an extremely long ranged 155 mm round for the zumwalt. We could try to develop something similar but cheaper for the ATAGS and other 155 mm guns.

https://www.naval-technology.com/projec ... ile-lrlap/

Looking into the future, for even longer ranges, eventually, armies will have to think in terms of bigger guns, such as 203 or 300 mm guns and sub calibre rounds for even longer ranges.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 03 Mar 2023 14:30

rohitvats wrote: PS: Someone earlier mentioned about 443 NAG and 13 NAMICA - well, it seems you missed the R-Day parade. NAMICA has entered operational service with first lot having been inducted.

Yes, I saw the R-Day parade & NAMICA in it. But haven't seen any news about orders or induction for Nag or Namica (actual numbers)

mody · Post by **mody** » 03 Mar 2023 15:22

Prem Kumar wrote:
rohitvats wrote: PS: Someone earlier mentioned about 443 NAG and 13 NAMICA - well, it seems you missed the R-Day parade. NAMICA has entered operational service with first lot having been inducted.
Yes, I saw the R-Day parade & NAMICA in it. But haven't seen any news about orders or induction for Nag or Namica (actual numbers)

This was reported and discussed in the missile news thread.

mody · Post by **mody** » 03 Mar 2023 15:24

The proposed procurement of ATAGS is good start. Once IA gets these in numbers, they will truly appreciate what the ATAGS brings to the table. Also, placing the orders on private companies and getting the deliveries form them, as opposed to OFB, will also hopefully be a more positive experience.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Mar 2023 19:35

nachiket wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Now with ATAGS saga closing in on finish line, the next target should be longer range tube artillery.
Longer range than the ATAGS? Are you talking about special longer ranged ammo like ramjet powered rounds or something?

58 cal ATAGS. Baba Kalyani has been talking about it.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 03 Mar 2023 20:03

Thakur_B wrote:
nachiket wrote: Longer range than the ATAGS? Are you talking about special longer ranged ammo like ramjet powered rounds or something?
58 cal ATAGS. Baba Kalyani has been talking about it.

The next logical step for the 25L chamber

This is why the ‘weight issue’ of ATAGS is so disingenuous especially comparing it to 23L chamber contemporaries. The ATAGS has far more scope to be developed and exploited down the road but that will require some forward thinking and breaking from the usual self-hating/doubting mindset.

Let’s see, that RFP for sub 15T towed 155/52 guns is more indicative than this order of where the IA’s mind is imho and it’s not ATAGS’s favour.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 03 Mar 2023 20:23

mody wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:
Yes, I saw the R-Day parade & NAMICA in it. But haven't seen any news about orders or induction for Nag or Namica (actual numbers)
This was reported and discussed in the missile news thread.

If you don't mind, can you share any relevant news article? Because I could not find any

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 03 Mar 2023 21:42

Also, longer range Pinaka project equivalent to Smerch and HIMARS, first hinted in early 2010s needs to be pushed.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Mar 2023 22:12

KSingh wrote:
Snip...
Let’s see, that RFP for sub 15T towed 155/52 guns is more indicative than this order of where the IA’s mind is imho and it’s not ATAGS’s favour.

The dead line for submission of RFI was a long time ago. The Indian army has not taken the matter forward subsequent to the submission deadline. Implies that it has been told to lay that RFI to rest.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Mar 2023 22:19

https://www.indianarmy.nic.in/

AoN DETAILS OF PROCUREMENT CASE – 155MM/52 CALIBRE MOUNTED GUN SYSTEM (MGS

The submission date for the tender is 13th March 23.