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Prasad wrote:The former DRDO chief himself said ATAGS is ready. Certainly don't need anyone else's certificate about its status. So do BF & TATA. That is ALL the folks involved in the program. So let's not beat around the bush shall we? The gun has been ready for 2 years now.
And as Karan has been ranting, our R&D % spending has been static over the past 8 years. No matter what electoral compulsions arise off and on, 8 years of no change like a dead man's ecg is crystal clear evidence of zero forethought or giving importance to up our future force posturing. Nor is any movement on key programs like engines - not just jet but turboprop too, or aircraft or composites or alloys. Talk to professors in this field in IITs and IISc about how they're hemorrhaging top class engineers and scientists because there aren't any programs that can keep them in the country. They're going to Japan and SoKo instead. All that training and time and money down the drain. Why?
Tejas Mk2 FSED sanction was 14,000 cr. AMCA is expected to be higher but still under 20,000 cr. TEDBF folks are waiting for money and no light at the end of the tunnel when it is THE most time & resource-constrained program. And this is from the horse's mouth btw, not some random pulled-out-of-musharaf detail. So let's not kid ourselves.
As for artillery, the two programs approved and bought have been the imported K-9 and the Dhanush. Sarang upgrade is separate and isn't considered a brand new program anyway. Take the K-9 - what exactly is L&T (& thereby India) getting out of the program? There is zero high-tech value add or absorption. Most weapon-related tech is black-boxed.
And that is why CVRDE had L&T as the DCPP for the Light Tank program that the Army just killed. After they've spent couple of years and parcelled out portions for design and prototype manufacturing. Talk to the CVRDE folks first before spouting gyan about army being gung-ho on indigenisation. You wouldn't find a more crestfallen bunch than them. Esp after the ridiculous 114 Arjun repeat order that does nobody any good.
GoK what will happen to the AMAGS program also. Repeated trials after trials in all conditions is a given but orders? The truck mounted LUH has been under trials for more than couple of years now. No news.
Well said. This ‘all is well’ or ‘trust GoI/services’ mantra gets old very quickly when you track these things relatively closely and the slow motion car crash unfolding. Frustrations of 2022 will be the same as those of 2032
There’s an abundance of IDDM options for arty from 105mm to 155/52 often with multiple solutions per category existing in india and yet not a single order to date, just more RFI implicitly designed for imported (locally assembled) systems. No one is saying there aren’t capable solutions at home but the issue is they aren’t happening.
+ not for the arty thread but to add onto your AMCA/TEDBF point- IMRH itself is entirely MIA for a few years now despite HAL’s chief TP hoping that he’d be flying the IMRH prototype at aero india 2023 (comment was made at the 2019 edition). Even if sanctioned today the project won’t deliver all units until the 2040s now as per the roadmap outlined by HAL years ago. A heavy lift helicopter with the IA will be essential for the IBG/theatrisation concept to be a reality especially as they have been testing out aviation assault concepts. Can’t do that with ALH and LUH.
India is registering its presence on the border with a lot of might. Apart from religious tourism, the Indian government reopened the 150-year-old Gartang Gali Bridge in 2021. Thirdly, the air force is being given land in Chamoli, Pithoragarh, and Uttar Kashi to install defense radars, and advanced landing grounds are being developed, and the K-9 Vajra Howitzer is being deployed.
Looking at the army RFI for towing Vehicles and the tamaha around the 15 ton limit. It makes sense to just buy the K-9 Vajra upgraded models which can fire rocket assisted projectiles for greater range. The platform seems to have almost no negative publicity. There is no towing vehicle needed. It makes sense to meet the ATAGS requirement through K-9. ATAGS or ATHOS cannot be airlifted by Chinook. So the mobility aspect is the same. Am I missing any operational requirements?
As stated above, MGS/SPG are substantially more expensive to procure and operate than the towed guns and given that much of the IA’s arty is fired from fixed locations it is overkill to have all towed gun requirements convert to self propelled options and would only draw things out more.
Given that the GTV RFI states a towing capacity of at least 20ts the sub-18 ton ATAGS (that can be lightened further during series production) is not such an issue. Furthermore 40+ ton K9s are not driving themselves all the way to the front, most of their journey will be done on the back of a trailer and hauled up by a truck themselves:
saumitra_j wrote:
That is not correct based on the Chindu article I had quoted a few pages back. To quote from it:
One regiment of the indigenous Dhanush artillery systems, developed based on the Swedish Bofors guns, has been inducted and operationalised in high altitude area along the Northern Borders after extensive validation. By March 2023, the Army should receive 18 guns to form the second Dhanush regiment, the source said.
Thats really good news. I am glad to stand corrected. There is also news of Dhanush 52 barrel passing quality tests with bofors. It makes sense to have them competing for the towed artillery requirement and not buy ATHOS outright even for emergency purchase of 400. Atleast 1 major Indian manufacturer needs to come out of this exercise. In the mean time, whatever production line is ongoing that is the best candidate. Regardless of cost, throughput is what matters now. 39 caliber or 45 caliber can always be upgraded later to 52 by the OEM.
Anywhere an MBT can go ATAGS can go. >40T MBTs are going right up to the front, arty will always be behind MBTs anyway so if they are happy to get MBT there then how come the 18t ATAGS is suddenly an issue?
ks_sachin wrote:Has anyone rejected the ATAGS because of unsuitability in Ladakh?
No they have not rejected it however
- After knowing its weight is from the start making weight an issue at this stage is very strange
- Army should have told MOD they will not accept ATAGS because of the weight and should have
requested the MOD to stop funding the work
- If the gun does not meet IA requirements, point out the issues (other then weight)
- Why the delay of placing orders, If money is the issue let MOD & FM deal with it
The above actions are a different way of saying NO in my mind
The issue of weight of ATAGS was known for a long time. During the concept stage DRDO showed the rendering of the gun mounted on the FH77 style carriage. With a weight between 13-14 tons.
The DRDO product page of the gun still shows the original concept art for the gun.
With time and with the completion of the design and development efforts the gun evolved into a twin carriage mount with total weight of 18 tons.
It is interesting to note that, Indian army officers were deployed by the army within the design teams to offer feedback to the designers about different aspects of the gun.
The 15 tons requirement was never officially communicated by the Indian army as a requirement. It was taken by the Indian army from the earliest design efforts. Something that was no longer relevant at the end of the design process.
The gun was also not designed to answer any GSQR of the army existing at the time.
The approach was that you design the gun and we will issue the SQR on the basis of what you are able to produce. The Dhanush 45 is the first and successful product of this approach.
It's only now that the army is back to playing it's usual games. In favour of an imported solution.
With a twin carriage the ground pressure exerted on each individual axle will be lower than for 1 carriage design. The mobility of the ATAGS in the mountains has been demonstrated. The total weight of the ATAGS can be constraint only if the towing trucks do not have the capacity to tow a 18 ton gun.
The same is being rectified with a new order for gun towing trucks that have sufficient capacity. Once the serial production starts, the weight of the gun may come down a little. However, even if the weight cannot be reduced substantially, it should not matter.
I am hoping that the order for 150 guns is placed before the end of the current financial year. Additional orders should follow thereafter.
Precision guided 155mm shells are also required as soon as possible. The Excalibur is just too expensive. An Indian alternative should be developed as soon as possible.
Last edited by ramana on 04 Jan 2023 22:12, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Edited by ramana. Towing
Development Of Course Correction Fuze For Artillery
Project Description
The Project aims for Des & Dev of Course Correction Fuze (CCF) for the reduction of dispersion of unguided 155 mm in-service Artillery Shells. The CCF-installed projectile is guided by signals of satellite navigation systems “GPS/IRNSS/ GLONASS”.
The project involves the Des & Dev of:
CCF, which should fit into a standard fuze well of 155 mm in service ERFB Arty Shells.
Input Setting Device (ISD) for feeding data into the CCF prior to firing.
And
Project Awarded To Astra Microwave Products Limited
Company Profile :
Astra Microwave Products Limited, Hyderabad (AMPL) is an Indian RF and Microwave company with well-established credentials in the Defence and Electronics domain over the last 26 years. AMPL has worked with and provided valuable support to many DRDO labs and PSU/DPSUs in prestigious Defence & Aerospace projects ranging from Radars to EW and Telecommunications to Meteorology. AMPL is also a trusted partner of ISRO collaborating in a number of strategic missions. Astra designs develops and manufactures a wide range of RF and Microwave components, sub-systems and systems for the Radar, Electronic Warfare, Missile and Aerospace market
Pratyush wrote:India was working on a terminal guidance kit for use on the 155 mm rounds. For precise strikes at the enemy.
The Indian army has released a tender for the domestic production of a grand total of 197 shells per year for a period of 10 years.
Who is going to build industrial capacity in India for this quantity is not of any concern in the army.
What’s more alarming about this is the mindset that it reveals. In an all out war how long will this stock last? Not even an afternoon most likely
Piecemeal/stopgap/interim/emergency is about the only procurements you here about these days. It doesn’t feel like they are preparing to fight an all front all out war at all
ramana wrote:Indian shell is called TGM. And the indent was for some 1800 shells first.
The PGK fuze was also TOT by DRDO. Need to find its report.
As Ramana has reported the initial requirement given is for 1,800 units. This will obviously be to setup the manufacturing and conducting he relevant trials.
if the performance is satisfactory, then this would be inducted in large numbers. The only question is if the performance will be satisfactory or not and the metric that IA uses for the same. I would say, it is 90% as good as the Excalibur, and the price is 4-5 times a standard shell, please induct it in the tens of thousands.
ramana wrote:Indian shell is called TGM. And the indent was for some 1800 shells first.
The PGK fuze was also TOT by DRDO. Need to find its report.
As Ramana has reported the initial requirement given is for 1,800 units. This will obviously be to setup the manufacturing and conducting he relevant trials.
if the performance is satisfactory, then this would be inducted in large numbers. The only question is if the performance will be satisfactory or not and the metric that IA uses for the same. I would say, it is 90% as good as the Excalibur, and the price is 4-5 times a standard shell, please induct it in the tens of thousands.
You don't setup manufacturing and conduct trials. You conduct the trials first and then setup the production base if selected. QC is supposed to built into the process of induction. This goes for most defence items.
We also often hear "we don't have money like pentagon" like this somehow inhibits us from maximizing our resources and creating transparency in the procurement process.
If the army needs shells of a certain #, state clearly what that # is, float a tender for that #, conduct the trials, and then give the contract to the winner. Whatever shortcomings from the production facility will be addressed through a stringent QC process.
Pratyush wrote:India was working on a terminal guidance kit for use on the 155 mm rounds. For precise strikes at the enemy.
The Indian army has released a tender for the domestic production of a grand total of 197 shells per year for a period of 10 years.
Who is going to build industrial capacity in India for this quantity is not of any concern in the army.
What’s more alarming about this is the mindset that it reveals. In an all out war how long will this stock last? Not even an afternoon most likely
Piecemeal/stopgap/interim/emergency is about the only procurements you here about these days. It doesn’t feel like they are preparing to fight an all front all out war at all
KSingh Saab,
Can you try to tag the former defense secretary Ajai Kumar and google tells me that current defense secretary is Shri Giridhar Aramane to raise this issue and also about the new RFI about artillery that has you and Pratush raise points. If there are more people raising voices then atleast somebody from MOD or IA will issue a statement atleast or clarification.
We can keep discussing things endlessly or rant in the forum, but nothing changes if nobody is complaining or raising some objections. I have no twitter account so you could do the honors yourself as you seem to have an account.
Venkat KV Do you recall the episode of Jayadrath's father in the Mahabharata War?
This CCF drops the shell in his lap!!!
Jayadratha's head is taken with the arrow far from the battlefield, finally landing on the lap of his father, Vridhakshatra.[5]
His father had been granted a boon that whosoever would be responsible for his son's severed head falling onto the ground would have his head burst into a hundred pieces. Therefore, when Vridhakshatra, horrified at having his son's head in his lap hurriedly got up, it fell to the ground, killing Vridhakshatra at the same moment.
KSingh wrote:
What’s more alarming about this is the mindset that it reveals. In an all out war how long will this stock last? Not even an afternoon most likely
Piecemeal/stopgap/interim/emergency is about the only procurements you here about these days. It doesn’t feel like they are preparing to fight an all front all out war at all
KSingh Saab,
Can you try to tag the former defense secretary Ajai Kumar and google tells me that current defense secretary is Shri Giridhar Aramane to raise this issue and also about the new RFI about artillery that has you and Pratush raise points. If there are more people raising voices then atleast somebody from MOD or IA will issue a statement atleast or clarification.
We can keep discussing things endlessly or rant in the forum, but nothing changes if nobody is complaining or raising some objections. I have no twitter account so you could do the honors yourself as you seem to have an account.
Giridhar Aramane‘s account is protected so not much point tagging him sadly.
But it’s true that multiple pressure points need to be applied
ramana wrote:Prasun Sengupta in his blog says the under 15 tonnes is for OFB Dhanush which meets that criterion.
However, even the Bharat Forge gun is under 15 tonnes.
So there will be a face-off.
OFB 45 caliber version was an interim solution.
ATAGS has its own path.
Lets see.
venkat, bureaucracy rarely issues clarifications.
Ramana garu, sorry to say but Sengupta's claim seems to be an attempt to find a chankian explanation where there might be none. I'm extremely doubtful that the IA has so much faith in OFB that they would make a new category just for a new product from them. Especially after OFB completely screwed up the deliveries for the original Dhanush order. Dhanush-52 has not even been tested yet. Meanwhile ATAGS has gone through multiple rounds of testing and changes plus it has 2 private sector companies ready to manufacture it. I find it difficult to believe that these advantages would be overlooked due to a difference of 3 tonnes to make space for an OFB product that isn't even ready. IA had also shown little interest in the Bharat-52 till now.
Occam's razor says this is just another case of the age-old import lobby that has spread its tentacles everywhere from MoD to services and the political establishment and which refuses to die.
ramana wrote:I don't see what's the angst about. ATAGS is a different class. Nothing compares to its range.
The RFI is for guns under 15 tonnes and two guns fit the category. The testing will happen for this RFI.
1) So was Arjun, have you forgotten how that story turned out.
2) testing, if it does take place, is going to lose another 3 to 5 years.
3) what is this gun expected to accomplish that the ATAGS will not be able to do?
4) if it's transportablity such a huge challenge, a 15 tons Axel load is greater than an Axel load of 9 tons.
The only thing better than 9 tons Axel load gun will be an ultra light 52 calibre towed howitzer made from titanium. Something that can be accomplished under 7.5 tons. But this is not what the Indian army is asking for.
ramana wrote:Prasun Sengupta in his blog says the under 15 tonnes is for OFB Dhanush which meets that criterion.
However, even the Bharat Forge gun is under 15 tonnes.
So there will be a face-off.
OFB 45 caliber version was an interim solution.
ATAGS has its own path.
Lets see.
venkat, bureaucracy rarely issues clarifications.
Ramana Saar,
I am quite aware that bureaucracy rarely responds, more so when it comes to defense matters. The bureaucracy runs circles around ministers, what about us mere mortals.
I am trying to reduce the noise ratio in this forum ever since the RFI seems to have come out. People seem to be going out of their way saying that this is for an imported solution, rather than wait a bit when things become a bit more clear. Instead of ranting in the forum for which there is no practical use, I am asking folks to focus their energies elsewhere to try what they can.
RFI's come and go without ever seeing the desired product in hand. i hope this goes the same way if its targeting an imported solutions.
An year to two of delay to induct desi solutions in the log run is like a blip on the screen of self reliance when it comes to defense weapons.
In another thread one of the posted articles has said that one of the lessons the US has got out of the UKR conflict is that towed arty is perhaps losing its relevance vis-a-vis mounted / SP arty. Even with an APU a towed gun is very vulnerable to detection in this day of drones / UAVs etc.
Keen to get your thoughts. If you do agree with the above does the IA FARP need a rethink?
In Ukraine, Russia is facing the full ISR of the US and NATO.
Let us keep our opponents in mind Pak and PRC.
Yes some of them will be vulnerable but even SP artillery is vulnerable to armed drones.
Am sure IA and DRDO are working on counters both at control and end points.
Arty, has been operating in the face of counter battery radars for nearly 50 years.
They have adapted to operate against them.
The ISR provided by UAVs is adding jut another layer under which Arty has to operate. But then it applies to every other arm on the battlefield as well.
A unified counter UAV capacity has to be developed by armies in order to operate against an adversary that has the ability to deploy drones.
Such as,
1) identification, jamming and hacking of UAV data links to crash or hijack UAV.
Russians had demonstrated this capacity in Ukraine, to an extent that the TB2 is no longer relevant to the fight.
2) Shooting them down using a) missils, b) directed energy, c) Automatic Anti aircraft guns, integrated with, fire control radar and autonomous target recognition and engagement capacity. Even the old flycatcher radar linked to modernised truck mounted or towed ZSU23 will be useful against such drones.
This is not going to be that much different from the use of mobile air defence against fixed wing and rotory wing aviation.
A competent IADS can handle this threat relatively easily.
Adding later,
The biggest threat presented by UAV is the from the small quad copter drones, that is proliferated down to the platoon or company level. But then these things don't have the performance to threaten arty operating in deep areas.
In another thread one of the posted articles has said that one of the lessons the US has got out of the UKR conflict is that towed arty is perhaps losing its relevance vis-a-vis mounted / SP arty. Even with an APU a towed gun is very vulnerable to detection in this day of drones / UAVs etc.
Keen to get your thoughts. If you do agree with the above does the IA FARP need a rethink?
IA arty plan has already undergone a change. The original plan from years ago, did not have truck mounted guns. IA now intends to induct between 800-900 truck mounted howitzers. The earlier plan was to have just the tracked SP guns, to keep up with the three strike corps. The numbers planned were 180 guns.
This has also changed now, with possibly 300 K-9T Vajra likely to be inducted, with much more flexibility in deployment plans, then just being associated with the 3 west oriented strike corps.
The plans will keep on evolving. I think even for the truck mounted guns, there will be lighter guns mounted on a 4x4 truck, like the Kalyani 39 cal gun and the heavy ATAGS gun mounted on a 8x8 truck. Besides I think IA might even go for the 105mm Garuda guns offered by Kalyani, for use in the mountains and these might get deployed in squadrons of 12 guns, rather then the standard 18 gun regiments.
I had posted, then deleted, a three-liner on 6th Gen, operating without electronic aid. Currently doing some leg work for a friend on the "Open Architecture for C2" (UAV thread). Here is one data point:
The
systems confrontation concept assumes that victory in
modern warfare does not necessarily require annihilation of
adversary forces on the battlefield, but instead can be
achieved by paralyzing major operational systems, such as
command and control or logistics.
To facilitate this, China’s
military in 2015 established the Strategic Support Force
(SSF), which combines cyber, space, and electronic warfare
functions into a unified effort and supports the use of these
capabilities by the military’s ground, air, naval, and missile
forces.
Thanks for posting this link. When I first learnt about the new truck based system. My thought was that it's just the previous AGM system, in a new bottle. But ready the article, tells me that this is a substantially different system with a much greater capacity than the previous system.
A text book example of iterative development of ever there was one.
Baba Kalyani has said that once ATAGS enters full scale production, India can look to further develop the system and increase the barrel length to 58 caliber from the current 52 cal. This would help unleash the full potential of the 25 liter chamber.
We need to keep and build on the lead that ATAGS has given us. Artificially creating light and heavy categories for aircrafts, helicopters, MBTs, etc. by the forces is just confusing and self defeating.
