Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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VinodTK
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

Pratyush wrote:Have come accross the supposed purchase of the elbit gun from time to time.

But it is never actually accompanied by details of any program of record for the purchase of these guns.

I wonder why that is??
Artillery import embargo postponed, doors kept open for Israeli Elbit gun
Kakarat
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Kakarat »

https://twitter.com/neeraj_rajput/statu ... 6733750272
Reports regarding removing artillery guns from Negative-import list (101 defence items) issued by MoD in August this year is 'incorrect', there is no change in the list, informs Defence Ministry reliable sources
VinodTK
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by VinodTK »

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/neeraj_rajput/statu ... 6733750272
Reports regarding removing artillery guns from Negative-import list (101 defence items) issued by MoD in August this year is 'incorrect', there is no change in the list, informs Defence Ministry reliable sources
Very sorry for posting fake news
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

This true, in light of the posts above?

Exclusive: Indian Army Getting Long Range ATHOS 2052, Israeli Artillery Guns
https://guardingindia.com/diplomacy/ind ... lery-guns/
25 Nov 2020
krishna_krishna
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by krishna_krishna »

Now why in the world would any indian company would spend precious effort and money to build anything in India, we claim not to have money to buy indian maal but can find it from anywhere for phoren maal. I have written to MoD request you guys to do the same, no way forces can escape this hate to say this, that they are the number one roadblock to indeginisation :


"In order to give push to Atmanirbhar Bharat Defence Minister on 9 August introduced a No Import list on 101 defence equipment.

The major highlights from 101 equipment import ban are Towed Artillery Guns (155mm × 52 cal), Light Combat Aircraft, Light Combat Helicopters to Conventional Submarines and Assault Rifles 7.62 × 39mm.

This embargo, however, is put off for a year by an “office memorandum” dated August 21, posted on the MoD website. This document puts a date of December 2021 for the start of the embargo on importing any 155-mm, 52-calibre towed artillery guns.

Postponing import embargo on 155 mm, 52 calibre artillery guns will enable the purchase of 1,580 Israeli made ATHOS 2052 Artillery Guns costing around Rs 23,700 Crore from Elbit systems.

The chief executive of an Indian defence company said to Business Standard that there could be only one possible purpose for postponing the gun import embargo by a year: To import a gun during the extra year granted for imports."

https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 029_1.html
Vips
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

If this news report is true, then anything is possible as the reason including major issues with ATAGS (Barrel burst was a design issue).Per a defence AV 400 ATHOS guns will be imported and 1180 will be manufactured (assembled) in India.

If we purchase the Athos then Elbit will also get the contract for the Mounted Gun system as it is the same gun and "commanality and ease of supply chain" will be touted. It will be shown as Make in India project as Bharat Forge has a tie-up with Elbit Systems.
hemant_sai
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by hemant_sai »

If this news report is true, then it is clear that "Kadi Ninda" is either part of this corrupt plot or doesn't understand anything about MoD games.
It is hard to believe that he doesn't understand MoD games so other part is definitely true.
This is most ridiculous way of executing "Atmanirbhar Bharat". Kadi Ninda must be replaced sooner else he will get BJP in trouble for sure.

It is really strange that politicians wants prestigious posts but not the posts where they can better serve the country with their expertise.
Yagnasri
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Yagnasri »

There is nothing officials about this report. I do not see any reason to believe such reports.
Aditya_V
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

I have seen many such sensational reports from similar sources, and people are put in the suspect list- when it turns out to be false why are these guys given a free pass?

Where is the document stating GOI has reversed its policy?
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

The Athos is a trial balloon that keeps getting released every now and then. Have personally been seeing such reports for the last few years at least. If my post history is seen on this topic or past version of the thread is explored. I have on multiple occasions said that on this issue. The best part is that sometimes punj Lloyd is the Indian partner on other occasions it is OFB or bharat forge.

The number of guns to be acquired is consistent with the numbers of guns to be purchased with fh 77. ATAGS also has the same numbers to be purchased.

Besides if Athos had actually won the contest to supply these guns. Then we are never told who were the other contestants.

The only possible explanation for the publication of this supposed purchase related news is to appear to be get raga take the bait and create some stink regarding bribes.
darshhan
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by darshhan »

Athos rumor is fake news propagated by Ajay Dalla shukla
jaysimha
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jaysimha »

after enhanced version of pinaka mk 1, development of guided pinaka nears completion
Nov 10 2020

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... n-7046526/
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by RajD »

https://twitter.com/ElbitSystemsLtd/sta ... 10785?s=19
Is it any coincidence, targetted campaign or there is really something more to it than meets the eye!
This tweet/advert. from elbit has appeared I suppose for the first time(at least I saw it for the first time) after that AS article was published.
Aditya_V
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

That tweet is a general ad and elbit systems will have these time to time. The question is when you a policy is being reversed and MOD has denied it.
jamwal
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by jamwal »

https://www.wionews.com/india-news/200- ... try-348037

200 Indian howitzers to be ready for induction in 18 months, CDS asks services to handhold local industry
In the backdrop of a choice between an indigenous and foreign option to fulfil Indian Army's requirement for over 400 howitzers, DRDO has said that it would be in a position to offer over 200 Made in India ATAGS howitzers in 18-24 months of placement of orders.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation has developed the gun in partnership with private sector industry.

Officials said the Made in India Advanced Tower Artillery Gun System howitzers would be in a position to meet the requirements of the Indian Army in the quickest possible timeframe as they have their production facilities ready while the Israeli gun on offer would take a long time just to create a production infrastructure.
"The Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System (ATAGS) is undergoing trials at Ahmednagar in Maharashtra. We can offer 200 plus of these guns to the Army within 18-24 months of the order," DRDO officials told ANI.

The DRDO-developed ATAGS has shown immense capability as it has fired at the longest striking range in its class of guns but suffered a minor accident during trials in the Jaislamer desert a few months ago.

Asked to comment on the issue, Chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat said: "Failures during trials will happen but these must not dampen the spirit, instead it must lead to timely reviews and encourage the manufacturers to seek ways to overcome the problems."

"Services on their side also need to prepare acceptable and desirable requirements and continue to support the development process for further enhancement of quality," he added.
Service officers with practical experience must be in integrated into the design and development processes. Navy has set standards that have helped in indigenisation but more needs to be done. Army and Air Force have gradually entered into the fray," the CDS said.
:shock:
mody
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

Kind of puts to rest the whole Elbit Athos buy news!!!
Due to the ATAGS barrel burst, Elbit must have seen an opening and activated the lobby trolls to push for Athos purchase.

Hope that LSP order for 150-200 ATAGS is placed before the end of the financial year.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Other than that shill Ajai Shukla, who else batted for Athos?
niran
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

RE: Athos vs ATAGS
ATAGS has the highest initial shell velocity among all current past and future 155s arty. it is 2.8x the now canceled by Rumsfield amreeki SPH 1.8x current big daddy PHZ2000 athos is 800 meter per second which is almost 3x lower than ATAGS, google for ffects of initial shell velocity to appreciate
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

:clap:
niran
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

and please due diligence before name calling dhoti shivering. it looks bad if so called yayjookated folks run after crow in place of checking their respective ears
John
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by John »

niran wrote:RE: Athos vs ATAGS
ATAGS has the highest initial shell velocity among all current past and future 155s arty. it is 2.8x the now canceled by Rumsfield amreeki SPH 1.8x current big daddy PHZ2000 athos is 800 meter per second which is almost 3x lower than ATAGS, google for ffects of initial shell velocity to appreciate
Are you talking about muzzle velocity? Not sure what you mean by 3x lower. ATAGS is 1000 m/s.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Nexoft034/status/13 ... 95233?s=20 ---> CONFIRMED.

ATAGS will be modified for MGS role. Initially dubbed as Advanced Mounted Artillery Gun System (AMAGS), a highly automated fire control system has also been proposed for it along with an autoloader. Will also possess shoot & scoot capability.

https://twitter.com/Nexoft034/status/13 ... 38592?s=20 ---> This DOES NOT means ATAGS is discarded. It will be mass produced along with AMAGS.

https://twitter.com/kaustav2001/status/ ... 81730?s=20 ---> ATAGS at 18T is a heavy artillery gun, due to the 25L chamber. Would be interesting to see how they plan on integrating it on a truck chassis (handling mobility, weight and recoil issues) & timelines involved. The OFB effort itself looked pretty clumsy with that huge overhang.

https://twitter.com/Nexoft034/status/13 ... 03552?s=20 ---> Engine, tires, axles, gear, diesel tank, towing handle, bottom chassis, spades and several other things will be removed from ATAGS to remove weight.
Indranil
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Indranil »

VRDE has issued tenders for design and manufacturing of the cabs of the mounted system.
Vips
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/kaustav2001/status/ ... 81730?s=20 ---> ATAGS at 18T is a heavy artillery gun, due to the 25L chamber. Would be interesting to see how they plan on integrating it on a truck chassis (handling mobility, weight and recoil issues) & timelines involved. The OFB effort itself looked pretty clumsy with that huge overhang.
The DRDO/OFB MGS itself was unwieldy on a 8X8 platform. What will the ATAGS be - on a 10X10? :shock:
nam
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

The ATHOS story must have been an OFB plant, as it is trying really hard to kill off DRDO's ATAGS. The news report mentioned about 400 imports and remaining to be built at OFB.

DRDO in turn started releasing news reports on ATAGS progress..
niran
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

John wrote:
niran wrote:RE: Athos vs ATAGS
ATAGS has the highest initial shell velocity among all current past and future 155s arty. it is 2.8x the now canceled by Rumsfield amreeki SPH 1.8x current big daddy PHZ2000 athos is 800 meter per second which is almost 3x lower than ATAGS, google for ffects of initial shell velocity to appreciate
Are you talking about muzzle velocity? Not sure what you mean by 3x lower. ATAGS is 1000 m/s.
muzzle velocity is different from initial shell velocity ISV is highest velocity achieved by a shell usually at mid barrel or there about ISV is used to caculate recoil force generation plus barrel distortion from heat and recoil,
Thakur_B
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Thakur_B »

AMAGS development was a no brainer and should have been initiated a while back. Good development regardless.
niran
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

Rakesh wrote: ATAGS at 18T is a heavy artillery gun, due to the 25L chamber. Would be interesting to see how they plan on integrating it on a truck chassis (handling mobility, weight and recoil issues) & timelines involved. The OFB effort itself looked pretty clumsy with that huge overhang.

https://twitter.com/Nexoft034/status/13 ... 03552?s=20 ---> Engine, tires, axles, gear, diesel tank, towing handle, bottom chassis, spades and several other things will be removed from ATAGS to remove weight.
minor correction sir, ATAGS has 39 liter chamber reason for its high initial shell velocity and longer range even with conventional charge, so the need for supah dupah recoil system translation heavier gun over all.
there are 3 truck mounted 155s under going test heavy, medium and light, light arty is very expensive and heavy one are cheapest so GOI (the one with monay) went for medium weight ones currently testing of 6 medium weight truck mounted 1 light weight truck mounted undergoing. Laddhak forced GOI to look into light weights ones too, they can be helli lifted.
no plans for ATAGS SPG or truck mounted.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

nam wrote:The ATHOS story must have been an OFB plant, as it is trying really hard to kill off DRDO's ATAGS. The news report mentioned about 400 imports and remaining to be built at OFB.

DRDO in turn started releasing news reports on ATAGS progress..
I don't think so. IIRC, the OFB is going to a part of the ATAGS final assembly.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

OFB is to be produced by BF/Tata. ATAGS is a competitor to Dhanush. The report about ATHOS mentioned that it will be license built by OFB. It surely means it is OFB which is pushing for this deal.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

niran wrote: there are 3 truck mounted 155s under going test heavy, medium and light, light arty is very expensive and heavy one are cheapest so GOI (the one with monay) went for medium weight ones currently testing of 6 medium weight truck mounted 1 light weight truck mounted undergoing. Laddhak forced GOI to look into light weights ones too, they can be helli lifted.
no plans for ATAGS SPG or truck mounted.
When you say light & medium artillery, which guns (& what calibers) are you referring to?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by soumik »

Posting here a link to an article on indigenization of artillery by myself, do let me know what you think
https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/an-e ... n-in-india
mody
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

niran wrote:
Rakesh wrote: ATAGS at 18T is a heavy artillery gun, due to the 25L chamber. Would be interesting to see how they plan on integrating it on a truck chassis (handling mobility, weight and recoil issues) & timelines involved. The OFB effort itself looked pretty clumsy with that huge overhang.

https://twitter.com/Nexoft034/status/13 ... 03552?s=20 ---> Engine, tires, axles, gear, diesel tank, towing handle, bottom chassis, spades and several other things will be removed from ATAGS to remove weight.
minor correction sir, ATAGS has 39 liter chamber reason for its high initial shell velocity and longer range even with conventional charge, so the need for supah dupah recoil system translation heavier gun over all.
there are 3 truck mounted 155s under going test heavy, medium and light, light arty is very expensive and heavy one are cheapest so GOI (the one with monay) went for medium weight ones currently testing of 6 medium weight truck mounted 1 light weight truck mounted undergoing. Laddhak forced GOI to look into light weights ones too, they can be helli lifted.
no plans for ATAGS SPG or truck mounted.
I think you are mistaken. The ATAGS has a 25L chamber and not 39L.

Tata's have developed a MGS with Denel 155mm/52 caliber gun. They already have the platform. However will probably require changes to account for higher weight of the ATAGS (even without the engine etc.) and more importantly the higher recoil of the gun.
The Tata's had claimed to have developed all the electronics etc. for the Denel based MGS themselves. Plus given their involvement in the ATAGS program, it would be better to go with a Tata truck as the platform rather than a more expensive Tatra 8x8 truck from BEML.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by soumik »

The Tata DENEL T5-52 CONDOR was actually developed in the early 90's as an answer to Indian Requirements for artillery, this was to complement the
T6-52 on the BHIM SPH . The MGS tender today has a number of strong competitors
1)Ashok Leyland/Nexter- Caesar , commonality in logistics as this uses the Super stallion chassis as well makes it a very cheap alternative.
2)Bharat Forge /Elbit - ATMOS 2000 , this will have commonality in the TATRA chassis & ATAGS designs.
3)TATA DENEL -T5-52 , commonality in truck design with some units however in terms of sheer volume the leyland & TATRA trucks will steal the show.
4)OFB- Mounted Dhanush155/52- Truck & Gun commonality make it the most desirable combo should it pass trials, also politically safe.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by niran »

soumik wrote:Posting here a link to an article on indigenization of artillery by myself, do let me know what you think
https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/an-e ... n-in-india
https://twitter.com/Abdulsaleemgad/stat ... 42624?s=20

above is my tweet please to RT it. good article just that 65 IA guns out ranged Paxi guns IA superior crew training/planning/tactics plus longer range ensured TFTA Paxi bit the dust
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by soumik »

niran wrote:
soumik wrote:Posting here a link to an article on indigenization of artillery by myself, do let me know what you think
https://myind.net/Home/viewArticle/an-e ... n-in-india
https://twitter.com/Abdulsaleemgad/stat ... 42624?s=20

above is my tweet please to RT it. good article just that 65 IA guns out ranged Paxi guns IA superior crew training/planning/tactics plus longer range ensured TFTA Paxi bit the dust
Thank you , that said in 1965 the Indian army was outgunned in terms of quality we had ww2 vintage 25 pounders, 3.7" howitzers, 5.5"& 7.2" guns with a maximum range of 15km, the Pakistanis had 105mm SPHs & 155mm guns of both ww2 vintage & more modern designs quoting AVM Arjun Subramaniam from India's wars these had a range of some 25-27km.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Prem Kumar wrote:
niran wrote: there are 3 truck mounted 155s under going test heavy, medium and light, light arty is very expensive and heavy one are cheapest so GOI (the one with monay) went for medium weight ones currently testing of 6 medium weight truck mounted 1 light weight truck mounted undergoing. Laddhak forced GOI to look into light weights ones too, they can be helli lifted.
no plans for ATAGS SPG or truck mounted.
When you say light & medium artillery, which guns (& what calibers) are you referring to?
Bharat Forge 105MM gun which weighs 900 Kgs and can be mounted on a pick up truck!!!
155MM 39 caliber gun which can be mounted on a light 6X6 truck.

These can be very beneficial on the LAC.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by John »

niran wrote:
John wrote: Are you talking about muzzle velocity? Not sure what you mean by 3x lower. ATAGS is 1000 m/s.
muzzle velocity is different from initial shell velocity ISV is highest velocity achieved by a shell usually at mid barrel or there about ISV is used to caculate recoil force generation plus barrel distortion from heat and recoil,
What is the ISV data for ATAGS?
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

nam
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by nam »

DRDO has become more smart now and is using PR to good effect. Everything from cost, weight to electric drive excuse has been given to slow down it's induction. OFB is nicely pushing through the Athos story as well.

DRDO is now pushing back. It knows, with the private player being the producers, it can deliver the numbers. It might have got the news that something is cooking in MoD...
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