Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

We on BRF want everything
Vips
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

^^ Good news about Sharang. Another 240 guns to be upgraded per the original program.

We have 800 more 130MM guns. At Rs 70 Lakhs cost per upgrade to 155MM these can be inducted in large numbers in relatively shorter span of time.Will increase the fire power of the army and also reduce the logistical challenges of maintaining the 130MM variety.
ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

Plus ammo.

If we keep upgrading the 130mm then and Dhanush equips more regts converted from light arty then where is the place for ATAGS?
Aditya_V
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

We need about 2000 odd towed 155mm guns plus 814 MGS, more than enough space, the older 155×39 will also start retiring.

So Atags will come when budget permits
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

I think that the older Fh77 can be rehabilitated and upgraded to 52 calibre. That should give us another 410 pieces.

So by my reconning by the time the arty program ends will have somewhere arround the following numbers.

1) 410 Dhanush 45.
2) 410 FH77-52( just because we can)
3) 1480 ATAGS.
4) 145 M777.
5) 750 Kalyani light weight 155 titanium version. As the Indian requirements was for nearly 900 guns of this type.
6) 814 155-52 MGS
7) minimum 140 K9 SPH.
8 ) Whatever numbers of the kalyani light
weight 4*4 155 -39 Indian army ends up ordering.
9) M46 upgrade ( assuming all gun holding getting upgraded ~900 pieces.

The total number comes to 5054. Just in the guns whose numbers we are aware of today.

We can further add the numbers of item no 8 above when it becomes clear. We are going to have a formidable and modern arty park by 2040.
ArjunPandit
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

Pratyush wrote:We are going to have a formidable and modern arty park by 2040.
selected and highlighted they key part
fanne
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

And I war with China maybe on the card within 5 years. But even IAF will wait that out till they get 114 MRFa
titash
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by titash »

Aditya_V wrote:As per this youtube Video 3 Regisments of Sharang 155mm have been Inducted- thats about 60 Guns



So what does the Army Artillery today consist off

1) 145 M777
2) K-9 -100
3) 3 Regiments Sharang -60 Guns
4) 36 Odd Dhanush
5) Original Sholtam Upg 155 mm Guns-180
6) Whatever is left off the Original Bofors -250 Guns

~680 155 mm , time to get the ATAGS and MGS in Numbers along with more K-9's. Plus whatever 130mm and 105 mm Guns, Motors. High time we upgrade and get mobile 105mm artillery also.

What does Army MLRS consist of

1) BM-21 -10 Regiments
2) Pinka-1 - 12 Regiments
3) Pinaka-2-?
4) Smerch -2 Regiments
5) Pralay/ Prahaar/ Pragati -0
6) Prithvi -1/II with Army/ Airforce

Time we have some serious Rocket Artillery to take on enemy Air bases and well defended targets.
What I never understood is why Sharang is an “upgrade”

If the gun increases from 130 mm to 155 mm caliber, the barrel is brand new, the breech is brand new, the chamber is new, and the ballistics and associated electronics are all new

What else remains other than the wheels, the metal stabilizers/ jacks, and the towing hook?
ArjunPandit
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ArjunPandit »

^^reminds me of abraham lincoln's axe
Vips
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

China has just deployed 350 KM range PL-191 MLRS on the LAC and we are still stuck with the outdated Smerch with a piddly range of 110 Kms :roll:
ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

^^
The idea is that we will fire it from 250km inside China!
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

An MLRS with a 350 km range is a tactical ballistic missile. Not a MLRS in any sence.

If the launcher is capable of accepting podded rockets like the US army M270 or the India Pinaka or the Brazilian ASTROS. Then it's just a matter of designing a missile that fits within the pod and you get a 350 or 499 km ranged missile.

Not shocking in PLA context. Nor disappointing in Indian context. As even Pinaka will be capable of shooting such rockets once they become available.

Provided the Indian army has asked for it.
Vips
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Pratyush wrote:An MLRS with a 350 km range is a tactical ballistic missile. Not a MLRS in any sence.
PCL-191 is able to carry eight 370mm rockets, each with a range of 350km, or two 750mm Fire Dragon 480 tactical ballistic missiles, each capable of flying up to 500km.
Pratyush wrote: Not shocking in PLA context. Nor disappointing in Indian context. As even Pinaka will be capable of shooting such rockets once they become available.
Provided the Indian army has asked for it.
Just check the time taken to progress from Pinaka to Pinaka enhanced/guided version with range of 60 kms (in testing) to Pinaka 2/3 with a claimed range of 80 Kms (under development for so many years and yet not ready for testing).Certainly does not give a lot of confidence that we are going to get a true blue long range MLRS at least for another 7-10 years and DRDO has not undertaken the development work without Indian Army asking for it.
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

At the ranges being quoted, the exact definition is academic.

Nobody is going to fire unguided rockets at those ranges. Which by definition makes it a TBM.

WRT, India i am not sure what's the hold up. Because DRDO had paraded a 200 km range TBM. Don't exactly remember what it was called Prahar or Pragati. Even if it cannot be fired from Pinaka, it should be enough to do the job.

The Indian army has to ask for it.

Such a weapon is well within technological capacity of the Indian R&D establishment.
mody
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

The correct equivalent of the Chinese rockets would be Prahaar/Pranash short range ballistic missile, with a range of 200-250 kms. Maybe 3-4 can be carried on a 8x8 platform.
Further there is the Pralay missile, with a 500 Km range. Maybe 2 of these can be carried on a 8x8 platform.
Both of these systems along with a guided version of Pinaka with the stated 75-80 Kms range and a guided rocket for the Smerch with hopefully a range of 120-150 Kms are essential for the proposed Indian Rocket forces.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

Good news on Sharang. 3 regiments inducted. Trials working better than expected.

https://twitter.com/connectaweil/status ... j0u0Q&s=19

Further down says 480 M-46 were to be upgraded. Foreign company did 180. IA was not satisfied.
Rest will be Sharang.
Production supply chain sorted out.
Wonder if more in pipeline plans.
How many M-46 are there with IA?.
MeshaVishwas
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by MeshaVishwas »

Thanks Ramana gaaru,
The reply by the OFB spokesperson to the mango fellow qweshchun regarding low numbers makes me think that the Army evoked force majeure clause?(had to deploy against CCP/cound not physically hand over the weapons to OFB due to Chinese Virus etc)
Wonder if the shoe had been on the other foot and a contract with guaranteed timelines w/ penalty clauses were in place and OFB screwed up and bore the brunt.Maybe we would have seen a flurry of articles giving gunagaan about the Soltam/Singapore Kinetics Pegasus/*insert foreign vendor name* .
Sri Baba Kalyani has a great interview with Sri Maroof Raza and lays out in detail, his reasons for entering into this (mine)field.

Ignore if it's a repost.
Vips
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

ramana wrote: How many M-46 are there with IA?.
More then a thousand.
fanne
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

Per Sjha, even though the number is above 1000, many are not in great condition to be upgraded. That in itself may not be bad. Whatever 130mm gun are left, will use the 130 mm ammos that we have. But we should upgrade as many as possible and leave what cannot be. At 17 lakh per piece, it is like almost free.
Vips
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Vips »

Cost is Rs 70 Lakhs for each upgrade.
ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

There was a field arty rationalisation plan that talked to the proposed arty structure and equipment
SSridhar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

ramana wrote:Good news on Sharang. 3 regiments inducted. Trials working better than expected.

https://twitter.com/connectaweil/status ... j0u0Q&s=19

Further down says 480 M-46 were to be upgraded. Foreign company did 180. IA was not satisfied.
Rest will be Sharang.
Production supply chain sorted out.
Wonder if more in pipeline plans.
How many M-46 are there with IA?.
Yes, really good news.
Initial order was for 300 to be completed by end-2022. Only 3 regiments have been completed (i.e. 60 guns) and a long way to go still.
There was a possibility of another order for 300 and that lookss certain now that this conversion has exceeded expectations.
The Soltam upgrade of 180 has been not quite successful and that along with the next tranche of 300 guns adds up to 480 as mentioned by you.
The rest of the 130mm may be unfit for upgrade. My understanding
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

fanne wrote:Per Sjha, even though the number is above 1000, many are not in great condition to be upgraded. That in itself may not be bad. Whatever 130mm gun are left, will use the 130 mm ammos that we have. But we should upgrade as many as possible and leave what cannot be. At 17 lakh per piece, it is like almost free.
As long as carriage is intact and sufficient. The piece can be upgraded. Because everything else is being changed.
sanjayc
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by sanjayc »

Can we make the carriage ourselves too, and build totally new guns?
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Why do you want to build M46 carriage.

When we are already building the Dhanush carriage and the carriage designs for Bharat 52 and the 2 varients of ATAGS are available.
Aditya_V
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

Also note this guns have quite a few drawbacks, although they help make up numbers, they are useful in the plains.

But their aiming mechanism is manual, they have no propulsion system to relocate quickly, reload will be manual- unlike Bofors, Atags, Dhanush Etc, Angle of elevation is limited to 45 Deg so they are restricted to the plains.

Make no mistake I am very happy with Sharang, and we could do with 1000+ of them , especially given the numbers we need in the Shakargarh bulge., Punjab Border , Rajasthan, Kutch border.

But we need ATAGS, Dhanush, more K-9. MGS plus Sharang to Augument artillery numbers, we also probably need mobile 105 mm also.
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

M-46 carriage has limitation for high angle fire to clear mountain crests. However it's good for plains wrt Pak. So should conveta as many as possible.
Waiting for ATAG to clear trials will push the induction to the left.
Dhanush had production models issues.
Always waiting and hoping for better underequips the military.

In these pages the available M-46 was given. Close to a 1000.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... JZAuXLILPw ---> DAC approves 75 km range guided Pinaka acquisition.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... JZAuXLILPw ---> The Pinaka Mk-I (Enhanced) Rocket System (EPRS) and Pinaka Area Denial Munition (ADM) rocket systems were successfully flight-tested by @DRDO_India & the Indian Army at the Pokhran Ranges. A total of 24 EPRS rockets were fired for different ranges during the last fortnight.
https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... JZAuXLILPw ---> Pinaka Mk-I (Enhanced) Rocket System (EPRS) and Pinaka Area Denial Munition (ADM) rocket systems were successfully flight-tested at the Pokhran Ranges earlier this year.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Prem Kumar »

Indeed - great post!

If it is well known who this Defense Secretary is, why is action not initiated against him? Like the ED going after Sonia & her son, unless there is systematic de-weeding, the "system" will continue to thrive - while a Modi or a Gen VKS will come and go.
ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

naraswami,

Now multiply that apathy across multiple indigenous products manufactured by OFB and DPSUs and u get the picture.

The IAF and HAL have a similar antoganistic relationship. Todays HAL is a far cry from the HAL of old.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by mody »

The problem is not always with OFB alone. I have given this information on this platform multiple times in the past. The OFB developed 45 cal upgunned Bofors was first displayed at DefExpo 2003!! Along with this, OFB upgrade of the M46 to 155mm barrel was also displayed.

IA did not show interest in the OFB bofors upgrade, as at that time the eyes firm firmly set on the next round of imports. That circus continued for a few years. The M46 upgrade from OFB was supposed to be better that the one offered by Soltam at that time as well. However, a barrel burst incident was reported, perhaps while firing the gun to its max limits and the upgrade order was given to Soltam.
The original plan was for 600 gun in total, with a first batch of 180 guns. The results were not up to the mark and this is known to everyone and hence, the project was dropped. It was only revived much later and OFB in the meanwhile had managed to improve its original design to the current Sharang variant. The results were much better and the order for 300 guns was placed.

The OFB Dhanush project was started after the initial effort of the OFB to upgrade the guns to 45 cal barrels.
Now, is the responsibility with the OFB to start developing new products and offer to IA or with IA to demand products from OFB/DPSUs?
It was well known that OFB was already manufacturing the barrels for the Bofors guns. The ToT for the guns was received probably in the 1986-87 timeframe and would have been put in the cold freezer, as the word Bofors was treated as radio active.

The blame for the arty fiasco in India, can be spread to all concerned, whether OFB, IA, MoD etc.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

moved ..
Last edited by fanne on 03 Aug 2022 20:46, edited 1 time in total.
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Why do you ask logical questions of Indian defence establishment?
ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ramana »

fanne you can ask but not in this thread.
Please x-post in the MOD Procurement thread.
fanne
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by fanne »

Thanks Ramanaji , will do.
ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

naraswami can you please be a little less cryptic for simple folks like me. What this means;
other side "boundary condition"
ks_sachin
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by ks_sachin »

OFBs shoddy metallurgy resulted in barrel bursts in the T72 and men needlessly dying or becoming medical categories.
OFBs shoddy metallurgy resulted in barrel bursts in arty guns and men needlessly dying or becoming medical categories.
OFBs shoddy manufacturing resulted in an INSAS design that was ok becoming one which was despised and also perhaps leading to a loss of lives.
I hesitate to venture into stuff like parachutes etc.
DM boots were crap.
Clothing was so poor that everyone purchased uniform material and got it stitched in civvy street. In Mhow there is an entire row of tailors who have been making uniforms for officers for generations!.
Pratyush
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Naraswami,
Somehow only on BRF is a student failing a test repeatedly becomes a problem with the examiner even if there is 5+ decades of that student being uninterested, low-performance one.
If it was an individual, i would have no issues with the quoted except.

OFB was not an individual, it's was an organisation run by the MOD. If the OFB was repeatedly failing then what were the corrective measures taken by the MOD?

That was the real problem.
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