Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 10 Apr 2019 04:36

Video

The video is not of the Indian Army though, but still awesome.

https://twitter.com/defencealerts/statu ... 8311184387 ---> The K9 VAJRA-T 155mm/52 Caliber Tracked Self-Propelled Howitzer will meet the Indian Army's requirements of 21st century warfare.After delivering the 10 systems ahead of schedule, L&T will deliver the balance 90 within next 22 months.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 10 Apr 2019 05:09

Artillery transformation has been a long standing goal of the modern army that Gen Sunderji envisioned.
The plan was to standardize on 155mm guns and retain a few 105mm for mountain troops.
This would get rid of the vast different guns and make logistics easy.
The 155mm shell is more lethal and effective.
I think the M 107 type shell will eventually die off and the ERFB type will be the only shell made.
With the BMCS it will have long range and lethality due to its fragmentation shell.
Only improvement can be on the driving band to be brazed or welded with a soft steel band.
Hope IA doesn't go for those elaborate cargo, beehive shells etc.
ERFB shell has the desired pattern.

The second part was to go for electronic fuzes to ensure reliable initiation and reduce the dud rate from mechanical fuzes.

Artillery should standardize on 155mm and 120 mm mortars.
And try out the PGK fuze to increase the hit rate.

Maybe have OFB joint venture manufacture Krasnopol type laser guided shell for special use against point targets like bunkers, snipers etc.

This is only a fuze modification and doesn't need special explosive filling skills.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Barath » 10 Apr 2019 09:07

negi wrote:Barath excellent points , I won't be surprised if our gold plated imports will have to be babied with their own ammo supply ; aise chootiyape ke liye hi hum jane jate hain (we are known for such things) .



I didn't mean it with prejudice.

After all, those guns were designed for NATO standard rounds...; obviously they can fire other rounds with different firing tables, but there might be secondary or tertiary effects - differing standards may not automatically translate to same accuracy/reliability/life/range guarantees. Since Indian army is often unhappy with Ordnance Board, manufacture,and India has signed things like LEMOA, and is going for new fuses etc, I was thinking there is hypothetically n opportunity for a range of options...especially since 155 mm calibre is well under way at last

[Since India is shifting to new fuses, there is option of changing shells/ammo where it makes sense , rather than just producing old ammo with new fuse. Anyway VikramA has also added some interesting input]

eg Fire indian ammo with typical indian standards and new firing tables from all guns; accept any trade-off or make modifications to guns

eg. Fire indian ammo and also NATO ammo, with NATO ammo being used only for foreign guns like M777/K9 (potentially for original guarantees). Variations here would be to fire nato and indian ammo both for the imported guns (eg. depending on need) another variant nato and indian ammo for all guns.

eg Upgrade Indian ammo to NATO standards - Ordnance board may do their own R&D and quality upgrade or take more ToT/consultancy to do so.
eg old M107 US HE ammo is manufactured in several countries, with differing fill and fill methods.. (obviously not proposing M107 itself, but that illustrates the kind of standardization and logistics options..)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M107_projectile


But realistically, I'm just scratching my head over the Elbit/bharat forge news and wondering whether we really are even in situation of talking all these now (compared to yesterday)

Edit: ramana garu has also given input to mull over..

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_P » 10 Apr 2019 10:36

Rakesh wrote:
The video is not of the Indian Army though, but still awesome.


Admiral sir, there was a video on youtube which showed a real-time side by side (picture in picture) shooting comparison between the K9, the french CAESAR, the swedish Archer and the german PzH2000. I don't know if it was posted in these forums. And i can't find it now on youtube. Awesome watch.

The K9 and the PzH seemed the fastest (in setting up and rapid fire mode) and the most stable platforms (there was also zoom in on their muzzles at the time of firing).

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 10 Apr 2019 18:23

When we talk about weight of ATAGS being 3 tons higher, we also need to remember that it has 25 liter chamber. From what I remember, most other 155/52 guns have 23 liter chamber.

While bigger chamber leads to longer range, does this lead to more weight? Quite likely because ability to withstand higher chamber pressure would require more metal (for lack of better word). Which will lead to more weight.

A study needs to be done which compares the weight of sub-components of ATAGS and foreign guns to isolate part(s) adding weight and improved upon. If higher chamber volume leads to biggest percentage increase in weight, a call needs to be taken - lighter gun with slightly lesser range or a heavier gun with longer range.

Blindly comparing weights of ATAGS and any foreign system makes no sense.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 11 Apr 2019 02:45

From Janes

Indian Army receives first 6 of 114 Dhanush howitzers

The Indian Army (IA) has taken delivery of the first six of 114 Dhanush 155 mm/45-calibre towed howitzers ordered from the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB).

Officials said the OFB's Gun Carriage Factory (GCF) at Jabalpur, central India, handed over the licence-built guns to the army's Central Ordnance Depot at the same location on 8 April ahead of their formal induction into the IA at a later date.

The guns, which have an effective range of 38 km, are improved versions of the FH-77B 155 mm/39-calibre field howitzers originally produced by Sweden's AB Bofors (now BAE Systems).

The Dhanush weighs less than 13 tonnes, has a ground clearance of 400 mm, a range of elevation varying from -3 to 70° and a traverse of ±30°, according to IA sources.

Capable of operating in varied climatic conditions across India, the gun has been fitted with an automated gun-aiming and -positioning system that uses a global navigation satellite system, an inertial navigation unit, and an onboard ballistic computer. Also supplied is an advanced day/night direct-firing and target-acquisition sight, as well as various communication systems.

The Dhanush's 45-calibre barrel is 877 mm longer than that of the FH-77B and has a 23-litre chamber capacity.

OFB officials said the GCF would complete building the first lot of 36 guns by December, with another 48 units expected to be ready in 2020. The remaining 30 howitzers are to be handed over to the IA by 2022.

The OFB anticipates an additional order for 300 more Dhanushs, but in tranches
to enable the GCF to further "refine" the howitzers to optimise their "operational efficiency", army officials said.

GCF officials said 81% of the Dhanush's components have been sourced indigenously, adding that this is expected to eventually rise to about 90%. Each howitzer is priced at INR145 million each (USD2.09 million), according to OFB sources.
Last edited by ramana on 11 Apr 2019 02:59, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added highlights ramana

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Apr 2019 02:57

Barath, OFB is slowly easing out the M107 shell and making the ERFB shells. And these are the SOTA shells. All are NATO standard since the beginning. The requirement to move to electronic fuzes was made in 1990s without funding it. And some MoD babus stopped the order of regular fuzes. Now all this is sorted out and BEL Pune makes them with Israeli collaboration.

Rohit you are right about the 25 liters chamber and it does need more material to withstand the forces. It also uses higher charge. Also more weight gives the gun lower frequency(f= sqrt(k/m)) so it doesn't shake with every shot an throw of accuracy.
ATAGS design seems to be more like a fortress than a mobile gun.
Some weight reduction can be done but not 3 tonnes.

the frequency shift will be proportional to the ratio of the weights.

All this has to be understood before demanding changes.
Bottom line is ATAGS is not same as ATHOS gun.
But if IA is happy with the ATHOS they should not have went along with DRDO project for longer range and then say its too heavy.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Apr 2019 03:00

Kartik Thanks for the Dhanush post.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 11 Apr 2019 13:38

Don't understand why Kalyani needs to partner with Elbit for the Athos guns, when they have developed the Bharat-52 guns inhouse. They had purchased and shifted the entire factory for artillery from Austria that was manufacturing the 155mm 45 cal guns. They developed the 52 cal version based on the drawings and technical specifications they got from the buyout of the Austrian company.
Earlier it wad reported that partnering with Elbit was more for the electronics part and the rest of the gun technology was already available with Kalyani. Though I guess this was reported for the truck mounted gun.

Now, with their participation in the ATAGS program, even the electronics and targeting part should be available to Kalyani for porting to the Bharat-52 guns as well. Why go for a joint venture and give a cut to Elbit, if they could have done everything themselves?

By the way I guess the Elbit Athos gun is also based on the Austrian gun and so is the Denel howitzers.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 11 Apr 2019 19:33

Elbit provides the electronics and the systems integration.
They have been working on this 52 cal gun for a few years.
Nowadays a gun is much more than the mechanical parts.

I wish reporters stop comparing Dhanush to the Bofors.
Its much better in Range and accuracy due to the electronics and the gun mechanical stiffness.

mody, I think the 400 order to Elbit is a thank you to Israel for a lot of cooperation.
And IA also gets some guns they can use while the Dhanush production and ATAGS are streamlined.

Some wise person said arms purchases and sales have strategic reasons/implications.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby negi » 11 Apr 2019 19:40

Elbit owns Soltam :) .

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 11 Apr 2019 20:46

Knowing Bharat Forge, they will indigenize furiously, and will do maximum value add in India.

I don’t think this order, if placed, will impact Dhanush/ ATAGS in any way. OTOH, the army will get a parallel supply of badly-needed guns

It is a win-win, if it happens

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 11 Apr 2019 21:47

Weren't 150 gun order placed already for the ATAGs gun?
https://thediplomat.com/2018/08/indias- ... howitzers/
On August 25, India’s Defense Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by Indian Minister of Defense Nirmala Sitharaman, approved the procurement of 150 155 millimeter/52 caliber Advanced Towed Artillery Gun Systems (ATAGs), currently under development for the Indian Army by the Indian Ministry of Defense’s (MoD) Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO).

“These guns have been indigenously designed [and] developed by DRDO and will be manufactured by production agencies, as nominated by DRDO,” the August 25 MoD statement reads. “They are likely to be the mainstay of artillery in the near future.” Total acquisition cost for the 150 artillery guns is estimated at around $490 million.

No contract for the acquisition of the ATAG has been concluded by the MoD to date.


ATAGs cost is around 3.3 million dollar per unit, Athos cost is a little less than 2 million dollars per unit going by the reports. But the ATAGs can fire 17% farther than the ATHOS. A proper life cycle cost comparison needs to be done. May be Elbit has quoted a low upfront cost but will charge an arm and a leg when it comes to consumables.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 11 Apr 2019 22:27

Saw a prog on kursk. Learnt that german plants scrapped arty shells that failed qc. Russians used them all as the warhead katyusha rocket which was mass fire area weapon. Only total war and a culture of hardship hones such thought process

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 11 Apr 2019 23:55

There has to be some catch for the ATHOS gun cost being lower then Dhanush. Something is not Kosher here.
We have to also keep in mind that Soltam(now Elbit) program for converting 130 MM to 155 MM M46 gun was not a success and was scrapped after 180 guns.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 12 Apr 2019 01:41

Vips wrote:There has to be some catch for the ATHOS gun cost being lower then Dhanush. Something is not Kosher here.
We have to also keep in mind that Soltam(now Elbit) program for converting 130 MM to 155 MM M46 gun was not a success and was scrapped after 180 guns.


No catch.. Its competing with the Dhanush, the price of that is in the public domain. So they priced it below that.. They will get their money back through life cycle costs. The only advantage they might have is relatively higher efficiency of a private sector company in India doing the manufacturing. But I doubt that contributes so much to the cost..

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 12 Apr 2019 05:55

Let's wait for the official announcements. Winning anything doesn't mean #$%^ in Indian defense procedures. More hoops to jump and more documents that need to be signed by all and sundry.. :rotfl:

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Apr 2019 09:58

Couple of points:

1) Report shared by Kartik says that, till 2020, GCF will produce Dhanush at the rate of 1 per week. But it will take till 2022 for the last batch of 30 guns! Unless they plan to use the remaining capacity for the expected 2nd or 3 tranche

2) L&T's Vajra production rate also seems to match the 1 per week rate of GCF's Dhanush. Drooling at the prospect of seeing 2 howitzers rolling out per week!!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srin » 12 Apr 2019 10:39

Now that we're getting a bit comfy on the guns front, we need to focus on the PGK for the shells. Cheap ones, not the gold-plated khan equivalents. I haven't heard much noise about this though.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Apr 2019 12:24

GOI and forces instead of ordering in small lots based on annual capex budgets must line up multi year funding (like say JSF project) and commit to it. right now we dont even know what will be next tranche after 114 dhanush and it will depend on other factors. lack of confirmed long tail orders just opens more cracks for the import lobbies to crawl in and try to damage.

its better to commit funding on a long leash to strategic projects like artillery and ammo just as it is done for nuclear submarine or agni. these dont get ordered in 5 agni this year and maybe 6 next year, these work to a bigger plan.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Apr 2019 12:28

Its not that GOI babus dont know that, it is just that too many people are there in the import gravy train, peace talks etc.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Arun.prabhu » 12 Apr 2019 12:32

ATAGS is ours. Athos is not. We can improve and customise ATAGS to our heart’s content, manufacture as many in secret as we want for a hidden reserve and ATAGS has better range. Whatever the cost, buy it by the thousands. It is sound investment.



sudeepj wrote:Weren't 150 gun order placed already for the ATAGs gun?
https://thediplomat.com/2018/08/indias- ... howitzers/
On August 25, India’s Defense Acquisition Council (DAC), chaired by Indian Minister of Defense Nirmala Sitharaman, approved the procurement of 150 155 millimeter/52 caliber Advanced Towed Artillery Gun Systems (ATAGs), currently under development for the Indian Army by the Indian Ministry of Defense’s (MoD) Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO).

“These guns have been indigenously designed [and] developed by DRDO and will be manufactured by production agencies, as nominated by DRDO,” the August 25 MoD statement reads. “They are likely to be the mainstay of artillery in the near future.” Total acquisition cost for the 150 artillery guns is estimated at around $490 million.

No contract for the acquisition of the ATAG has been concluded by the MoD to date.


ATAGs cost is around 3.3 million dollar per unit, Athos cost is a little less than 2 million dollars per unit going by the reports. But the ATAGs can fire 17% farther than the ATHOS. A proper life cycle cost comparison needs to be done. May be Elbit has quoted a low upfront cost but will charge an arm and a leg when it comes to consumables.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 12 Apr 2019 12:46

Long time back, when I wrote two detailed assessments of Artillery Divisions in the Indian Army, I had mentioned the term 'Maneuver by Fire'. This is something I had learned after reading Soviet Doctrine on Deep Battle.

http://vatsrohit.blogspot.com/2012/12/artillery-divisions-in-indian-army.html

Here's an excerpt:

The Russians have been the biggest proponent of artillery divisions. The phrase ‘God of War’ used to describe the role of artillery as a battle winning arm in modern battlefield originated in former Soviet Union (‘Bog Voyny’ in Russian). By the end of WWII, Soviet Army had placed 65% of its artillery in artillery divisions which numbered around 90 divisions. This concentration only increased as the Cold War increased in intensity over the years.

The Soviet Artillery doctrine considered use of artillery as a ‘fighting arm’ rather than as a ‘support arm’. They spoke in terms of Artillery Offensive or Fire Strike, where a large concentration of artillery firepower in terms of weight, volume and rate of fire is used to hit at not only the forward areas but those in depth as well - leading to considerable destruction.

Now, the objective of having a maneuver force of mechanized troops (or Cavalry in earlier times) is to place a ‘Force’ in an advantageous position – Force here refers to mobile and protected firepower inherent in this maneuver group. The ability to concentrate humungous amount of firepower leads to a situation where the ‘Force’ is concentrated without committing troops/maneuver formations on the ground. This concentration of firepower to place a ‘force’ in an advantageous position itself represents a “Maneuver by fire”.

This maneuver by fire adds another dimension to the war fighting of current times – the maneuver formations do not necessarily advance under cover of artillery support, they advance to ‘Support’ the Artillery Offensive. The Artillery Offensive or Fire Strike creates the space for the maneuver of mechanized columns. There is interchangeability in mode of expression of ‘Force’ – from combat troops/mechanized columns to long range guns and back to combat troops.

The above is the central premise in favor of having artillery division.

In our context, each of the Strike Corps has one artillery division. When coupled with armored division and Integrated Battle Groups, the artillery division can apply tremendous amount of firepower over the required front. This firepower can be employed for both, degrading (and destroying) the war-fighting capability of the enemy and for creating openings through which the mechanized columns can pour through.


Now, imagine the impact of latest accretion in the artillery strength of IA - both in terms of quantity and quality.

Coupled with Pinaka series, short-range ballistic missiles and Shakti Artillery Command & Control System (ACCS), we're reaching a stage where IA can dish out massive punishment to Pakistan. And that too, w/o coming in direct contact with their forces.

Imagine this scenario:

- Two brigades (6-8 regiments or 108 to 144 guns) of long range 155/45 & 155/52
- Sustained rate of fire - 60 rounds per hour
- Firing for two hours
- Weight of an artillery shell: 45 Kg
- Explosive content:15% (6.75 Kg)

- rounds fired over 2 hours period: 17,280 to 23,040
- Tonnage of TNT dropped: 1,16,640 to 1,55,520

There is nothing which can survive this kind of pounding. Pakistani armored or mechanized brigades can be simply decimated by such fire. Or, any other formation along FEBA or in depth.

Truly, Artillery is 'God of War'!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 12 Apr 2019 15:24

https://nationaldefence.in/breaking-new ... -ceremony/
dhanush-artillery-gun-handing-over-ceremony-posting-for-records

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 12 Apr 2019 15:40

rohitvats wrote:While bigger chamber leads to longer range, does this lead to more weight? Quite likely because ability to withstand higher chamber pressure would require more metal (for lack of better word). Which will lead to more weight.



Higher chamber pressure would also mean more recoil, which requires the platform to be stronger, to withstand the recoil. Also with probably thicker barrel to withstand the Level 7 BMCS explosive.

ATAGS is four wheeled compared to 2 wheeled on Dhanush, thus provides more stability in firing.

All of these will automatically add weight. Introducing too much innovative ideas to reduce weight will invariably result in more expensive platform.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby jaysimha » 12 Apr 2019 16:25

PIB release for records.
http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=188788
19-February-2019 21:07 IST
OFB Gets Bulk Production Clearance for 'Dhanush' Artillery Gun

Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) has received the bulk production clearance (BPC) from the Indian Army and the Ministry of Defence on February 18, 2018 for production of 114 nos of 'Dhanush', the first ever indigenous 155mm x 45 calibre artillery gun. The weapon is the first long rang artillery gun to be produced in India and it is a major success story of the 'Make in India' initiative.

The gun is equipped with inertial navigation-based sighting system, auto-laying facility, on-board ballistic computation and an advanced day and night direct firing system. The self-propulsion unit allows the gun to negotiate and deploy itself in mountainous terrains with ease.

'Dhanush' has been mechanically upgraded to fire standard NATO 155 mm ammunition and can accommodate both boll bags and the bi-modular charge system (BMCS) which have resulted in increasing the range . 'Dhanush' has also been electronically upgraded to enhance the firing accuracies, laying speeds of the existing gun and to provide compatibility with various kinds of ammo as well.

The performance of 'Dhanush' has been evaluated under arduous conditions in several phases. The guns travelled extensively in towed and self-propelled mode in all terrains viz desert and high altitude with each gun clocking over 1600 km. Such an extensive exercise was carried out by the user for the first time for any gun system under the process of induction.



The manufacture of a 155 mm modern artillery gun was initially a challenge for OFB. This was due to change in the vision parameters from 155x39 calibre to 155x45 calibre. OFB received the Transfer of Technology (ToT) documents pertaining to 155x39 calibre and then converted it to 155x45 calibre successfully.

'Dhanush' is the product of joint efforts by the OFB and the Indian Army with contributions from DRDO, DGQA, DPSUs such as BEL, PSUs such as SAIL and several private enterprises.

Nampi/Rajib

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby kvraghav » 12 Apr 2019 16:44

Does it mean that the ATMOS 2052 gun will cost less than 1.2 mil $ per unit for a 155mm/52 cal gun?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 12 Apr 2019 19:14

i have been shouting for a while now that we must MUST capitalize on having the ownership of dhanush, bharat52, atags three of the top howitzers in the world. a buffet that not even usa or germany has.

there is NO reason why every corps cannot have indep artillery division attached, why just the strike corps. the holding corps could also get 1 arty div - a composite force of MLRs and tube artillery. each strike corps should have 2 artillery divs :twisted: when deploying, their line of vehicles should stretch from delhi to maneswar as highway entrances are closed to let the 'horde' pass. :twisted:

we must go into cheen FFG producing mode on this one and have the largest holding of 155mm howitzers in a decade.

maybe hold a north korean style firepower demo not in remote pokhran but line them up on a beach in chandipur / vizag / chennai and let it rip one solid hour. work the stress out of the system. I am going to walk down to chennai if necessary all 300km of it, just to see that ONE DAY of SINGULARITY...a character building day...a day of rage...even if its my last day.

we need to lose the old british army sized thinking and think big...very big....

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 12 Apr 2019 19:29

a system should be worked out where there are financial incentives for babus etc to export arms !! that should solve all the problems i guess. IA should be using indian systems ... for a army which is always in operations..there is no better certificate for a weapon system than 'its in use with IA'.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 13 Apr 2019 00:54

Singha wrote:GOI and forces instead of ordering in small lots based on annual capex budgets must line up multi year funding (like say JSF project) and commit to it. right now we dont even know what will be next tranche after 114 dhanush and it will depend on other factors. lack of confirmed long tail orders just opens more cracks for the import lobbies to crawl in and try to damage.

its better to commit funding on a long leash to strategic projects like artillery and ammo just as it is done for nuclear submarine or agni. these dont get ordered in 5 agni this year and maybe 6 next year, these work to a bigger plan.

I suspect in the case of the Dhanush, since it is an OFB product, the army is waiting to see how the guns do in service before ordering more. Especially whether the OFB's infamous QC issues are evident on this product as well. The guns did clear comprehensive trials. But they might be trying to verify that the build quality of the guns coming off the regular production line matches that of the guns brought for testing.

I sincerely hope that this is not a case of "We'll buy only 114 Dhanush and wait for 52cal guns later". I mean we were close to being 155mm nude with only around 200 of the FH-77B's still remaining in service. The Dhanush is a lifeline which the IA needs to grab with both hands.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 13 Apr 2019 01:00

Pure BS - waiting to see if the Dhanush induction can be Arjunized!!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 13 Apr 2019 01:02

Vivek K wrote:Pure BS - waiting to see if the Dhanush induction can be Arjunized!!

You can't blame the IA where the OFB is concerned. I mean they have had their fingers burned often enough. Arjun was a different case and the IA's hands are dirty there. But you cannot extrapolate that everywhere.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 13 Apr 2019 05:04

114 sets the supply chain..
OFB already said orders will be in tranches and incorporate user feedbacks.

IA is accepting Arjun Mk1A.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 13 Apr 2019 05:29

So why not order 400? And where is an order for 500-1000 Arjuns? We have ordered how many Tin cans?? Is there a reason to not have the most tested tank and the most tested gun in large numbers?

The colonial mindset continues! When will we think like mass producers? When will India behave like an industrial power?

Look at the orders released to Russia
4 Frigates (Probably not as good as the Shivaliks)
18 MKIs
21 MiG 29s (smokezillas)
464 T90 tin cans that could not complete the Tank biathlon
A.K. 203 (gazillions)
And so on!

No wonder so much manpower has to immigrate from India every year!! When will India learn - once they all are speaking Mandarin?

So much noise was generated about LCA deliveries!! Does anyone remember the delay in MKIs from date of 100% advance payment? Now where are the orders for the LCA? Instead of smokezillas why could they have not added 2-3 squadrons of LCA Mk1s?

All is BS!

dinesh_kimar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby dinesh_kimar » 13 Apr 2019 12:33

^ Beautiful post saar, captures the situation very well.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Khalsa » 13 Apr 2019 12:39

India is pivoting back to Russia.
The tactical purchases have yielded the max value .... no more can be squeezed out i think unless we yield our domestic fighter programme to the amreekans. The strategic relationship based on purchases pays off better yields when buying from Russia. They are on the same continent as we are.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby vimal » 13 Apr 2019 12:44

Vivek K wrote:
No wonder so much manpower has to immigrate from India every year!! When will India learn - once they all are speaking Mandarin?

So much noise was generated about LCA deliveries!! Does anyone remember the delay in MKIs from date of 100% advance payment? Now where are the orders for the LCA? Instead of smokezillas why could they have not added 2-3 squadrons of LCA Mk1s?

All is BS!


I'm really surprised by these strings of purchases in the last 1 year.

What could've caused these, just my hunch:

1. It is quite likely Modi wanted some action against Pakis but was told by our fauj the pathetic situation of our preparedness which forced these panic buying decision (as usual).
2. Might be this was also at done the behest of our Def Min just in case BJP does not manage to come back to power.
3. There is some sort of deal with Russia for something.

Who knows! All we know is that we are again making billion dollar deals while local MiC is struggling to get orders.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Apr 2019 12:58

4 Frigates (Probably not as good as the Shivaliks)

>> imo this is quid pro quo deal for help extended on continuing basis to SSBN program and then SSN project. I fully expect it to have yasen/husky lineage than anything to do with the french.

18 MKIs

>> this is to address squadron dropping numbers. a useful asset for sure esp for tibet where distances are large and tough for the jaguars.

21 MiG 29s (smokezillas)

>> we need cheaper opex QRT assets for long periods of hot peace on the borders. Mig29 is already in that role in punjab. these are hoped to be quickly available and supplement for impending retirement of Mig21. if we need to ride old horses, far better to Mig29 (2 engines!) than 1 seaters like 21 and 27. the 21s need to EOLed asap.

464 T90 tin cans that could not complete the Tank biathlon

>> this is a shameful betrayal of domestic tank efforts.

A.K. 203 (gazillions)

>> imo in dollar terms, even a million rifles is not a huge amt. if its reliable and good , lets use it.

Singha
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Apr 2019 13:02

there was a meet the press program organized in adampur afb housing 2 x mig29 sqdns which provided some good details


nachiket
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 13 Apr 2019 13:14

^^ First time I heard the actual capacity of the new conformal fuel tank - 920 liters.


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