Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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ramana
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Jul 2019 19:43

Prem Kumar wrote:For bunker busting, why not develop a parachute-retarded, sensor fuzed, HESH round?

Something that's lobbed in the general vicinity of the bunker/sangar, in a top-attack mode, has an IIR sensor which seeks out the target and deploys the HESH warhead. Good for spall damage inside the structure



Thats for general war where you use Air Force. And they have their targets and this will be lowest priority. Even after decades of knowing about HAS in Fizzleya airbases not one IAF thought about getting ordnance that will destroy them. They want to attack runways just as Durandal in 1967 Five day War. SAAW is modern way to hit runways. In war you need to kill them dead. Not pin prick them to come back.

After Desert Storm they acquire Paveway kits and find out in Kargil they need Israeli help to integrate and talk about it 20 years later. Politicians wont let that help be acknowledged for vote bank politics. Cant even thank publicly some one who saved you behinds.
This learning in a war is typical British attitude. RAF came out of British Army and same attitude of penny pinching and general knows best has percolated.


Coming to bunker busting its a real issue for IA since atleast 1965 war. Its not like this first time they came across such structures. In Kohima and Imphal, BIA came up with the tactics to blow up IJ bunkers. Even a near miss with the 1000 lb bomb was not enough. They would bring a 5.5 inch medium gun and direct fire with delay fuze. The odd thing is in 1965 they had the 5.5 inch still with them and even 7.2" But these were divisional and corps assets!!!

Dhanush in direct fire mode can take these out from 4 km that is is if they can get line of sight. Not likely in mountains.
So his Excalibur with all those fins and canards has more control capability and with its INS/GPS and delay fuze would be able to attack those bunkers.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 12 Jul 2019 20:38

Thanks Ramana.

(I know this is the artillery thread) If we want a clean-sheet approach to HAS destruction, my personal favorite is the Conventional Trident Modification approach. We should convert some percentage of our Agnis into this type.

One Agni for each airbase. When the balloon goes up, in 30 minutes time, PAF must cease to exist. Pure kill.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 13 Jul 2019 00:07

It looks impressive but won't do the job with its 10 m accuracy.

You need a direct hit and with enough mass and explosive to do damage.

CTM was a solution looking for a problem and ruffled too many feathers and got shelved.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 13 Jul 2019 01:05

Does it have to be an artillery shell though? Couldn't a high speed drone do the job? 40km could be done by a mini-harpy. Might not even need that range if it can be launched from closer (given arty is usually positioned reasonably further back).

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 13 Jul 2019 07:07

A high speed drone that can survive MANPADS and assure a relatively high enough PK against the target is not going to be cost competitive with an sub $80K artillery round especially not when you factor in the cost of building up inventory and infrastructure to have it available and in orbit for every situation that you demand something like the Excalibur or PGK for.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 14 Jul 2019 00:04

Prasad wrote:Does it have to be an artillery shell though? Couldn't a high speed drone do the job? 40km could be done by a mini-harpy. Might not even need that range if it can be launched from closer (given arty is usually positioned reasonably further back).


Prasad please understand concrete penetration mechanics.
Lot of science in bunker busting.
Will write a short note once am home.

Will keep it qualitative with minimal science.
That VishnuSom tweeted report about ALPHA-S drones to take out Balakot is bokwas.

These guys don't know what was achieved there.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 15 Jul 2019 16:51

FWIW,
http://idrw.org/brain-child-of-rawat-ka ... or-trials/
1. ULH is will be handed over to army for trials "soon" (how soon is missing)
2.
Kalyani Group in last Defence Expo 2018 had showcased a Light Truck-mounted Advance Hybrid recoil version of the ULH 155/39 which weighed only 4.5 tonnes but Rawat suggested the development of 6.8 tonnes All Steel ULH mounted on a Medium class Ashok Leyland Stallion 4×4 Truck which was a cheaper alternative without a drop in performance in mountain terrain.

Not sure why, may be reason is below
3.
Truck-mounted weapon systems like ULH and Dhanush 52 howitzers leave a considerable amount of strain on the chassis of the vehicle upon which they are mounted and often lead to accuracy issues which also raises safety concern issues of the crew which needs to address if such issues do crop up and also important are other factors like time to engage targets and reposition of the vehicle which can only can be recorded by extensive trials carried over months and years on the platform in different terrain before further improvements can be suggested and accepted for bulk induction

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 15 Jul 2019 18:47

ArjunPandit wrote:FWIW,
http://idrw.org/brain-child-of-rawat-ka ... or-trials/
1. ULH is will be handed over to army for trials "soon" (how soon is missing)
2.
Kalyani Group in last Defence Expo 2018 had showcased a Light Truck-mounted Advance Hybrid recoil version of the ULH 155/39 which weighed only 4.5 tonnes but Rawat suggested the development of 6.8 tonnes All Steel ULH mounted on a Medium class Ashok Leyland Stallion 4×4 Truck which was a cheaper alternative without a drop in performance in mountain terrain.

Not sure why, may be reason is below
3.
Truck-mounted weapon systems like ULH and Dhanush 52 howitzers leave a considerable amount of strain on the chassis of the vehicle upon which they are mounted and often lead to accuracy issues which also raises safety concern issues of the crew which needs to address if such issues do crop up and also important are other factors like time to engage targets and reposition of the vehicle which can only can be recorded by extensive trials carried over months and years on the platform in different terrain before further improvements can be suggested and accepted for bulk induction


The reason is cost, both 4.5T and 6.8T are the same gun. 4.5T is titanium and 6.8T is steel, 4.5T is 3 times cost of 6.8T

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 15 Jul 2019 19:04

and we are not exactly abundant in titanium unlike the P2. steel all the way.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 15 Jul 2019 19:52

Singha wrote:and we are not exactly abundant in titanium unlike the P2. steel all the way.


Anyway we could use the waste pieces of Titatnium blocks in Su 30 manufacturing process to produce some more ULH's. Even at 6.5 tonnes they will be useful in numbers, M-777 and ULH for the mountains, while Dhanush, Bofors, ATAGS, Sarang's, Soltam upgrades, K-9's keep areas like the Chicken neck saturated.

One of Musharraf's claims while planning Kargil to his air force and army commanders that the there not enough Bofors to be operation in Jourian Jammu area and the Mountains.

The more 155mm the merrier.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Jul 2019 01:26

Affordability is one reason. But read the comments in 3.)

Truck-mounted weapon systems like ULH and Dhanush 52 howitzers leave a considerable amount of strain on the chassis of the vehicle upon which they are mounted and often lead to accuracy issues which also raises safety concern issues of the crew which needs to address if such issues do crop up and also important are other factors like time to engage targets and reposition of the vehicle which can only can be recorded by extensive trials carried over months and years on the platform in different terrain before further improvements can be suggested and accepted for bulk induction.


all these are stiffness of the system issues.
A 6.8t steel system with more mass lowers the natural frequency and helps.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby niran » 16 Jul 2019 22:37

Indranil wrote:Brar ji,

Pinaka MkII rocket costs around $35,000 per rocket. In 2017, when the guided MkII was just being prototyped, the cost of a guided rocket was around $100,000. This was slated to come down significantly at the time of serial production.

Rohit,
OBviously, I know the difference between a rocket and an artillery shell. I did not equate it. I was just trying to tell Ramana sir that in operations they are at least closer than a SAAW and an artillery shell.

As Brar ji said,the closes match to an excalibur is the precision_guidance-cum-fuse (PGK) kit added to a legacy shell. Excalibur has kind of lost the battle to the latter on cost. There is a very very niche area where an excalibur round will do and the PGK-skell won't. IA has probably identified such a scenario. It must be in special ops for such a small quantity buy. I can't imagine what it is though.

mighty sorry to butt in late,
Excalibur shell uses opticle guidance plus others, this prescion is needed for bunker busting, pukes have trillions of concrete bunkers with 7meter thick roof(ain't a typo) these need precision, rocket arty regardless of guidance or lack of it is for area saturation, it takes full year to reload, tube arty with good crew can lob 4 excalibur shell in under a 4 minute and relocate to safety, an excellent crew will 6 shells. as a gun commander you know you have less than 4 minutes before counter arty fire come in in those 4 minutes you would like to destroy 4 to 6 bunkers and relocate or fire relocate fire relocate and hope you bust few. i would chose excalibur destry 4 to 6 bunkers relocate wait for coordinates bust few more.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby niran » 16 Jul 2019 22:43

ArjunPandit wrote:FWIW,
http://idrw.org/brain-child-of-rawat-ka ... or-trials/
1. ULH is will be handed over to army for trials "soon" (how soon is missing)
2.
Kalyani Group in last Defence Expo 2018 had showcased a Light Truck-mounted Advance Hybrid recoil version of the ULH 155/39 which weighed only 4.5 tonnes but Rawat suggested the development of 6.8 tonnes All Steel ULH mounted on a Medium class Ashok Leyland Stallion 4×4 Truck which was a cheaper alternative without a drop in performance in mountain terrain.

Not sure why, may be reason is below
3.
Truck-mounted weapon systems like ULH and Dhanush 52 howitzers leave a considerable amount of strain on the chassis of the vehicle upon which they are mounted and often lead to accuracy issues which also raises safety concern issues of the crew which needs to address if such issues do crop up and also important are other factors like time to engage targets and reposition of the vehicle which can only can be recorded by extensive trials carried over months and years on the platform in different terrain before further improvements can be suggested and accepted for bulk induction

truck mounted arty have low muzzle velocity translate into shorter range and poorer accuracy. FV4005 was first tested with 6 round clip on centurian hull, the hull broke into half by 3rd round killing 2. since then they reduce muzzle velocity as solution.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby Indranil » 16 Jul 2019 23:22

niran wrote:
Indranil wrote:Brar ji,

Pinaka MkII rocket costs around $35,000 per rocket. In 2017, when the guided MkII was just being prototyped, the cost of a guided rocket was around $100,000. This was slated to come down significantly at the time of serial production.

Rohit,
OBviously, I know the difference between a rocket and an artillery shell. I did not equate it. I was just trying to tell Ramana sir that in operations they are at least closer than a SAAW and an artillery shell.

As Brar ji said,the closes match to an excalibur is the precision_guidance-cum-fuse (PGK) kit added to a legacy shell. Excalibur has kind of lost the battle to the latter on cost. There is a very very niche area where an excalibur round will do and the PGK-skell won't. IA has probably identified such a scenario. It must be in special ops for such a small quantity buy. I can't imagine what it is though.

mighty sorry to butt in late,
Excalibur shell uses opticle guidance plus others, this prescion is needed for bunker busting, pukes have trillions of concrete bunkers with 7meter thick roof(ain't a typo) these need precision, rocket arty regardless of guidance or lack of it is for area saturation, it takes full year to reload, tube arty with good crew can lob 4 excalibur shell in under a 4 minute and relocate to safety, an excellent crew will 6 shells. as a gun commander you know you have less than 4 minutes before counter arty fire come in in those 4 minutes you would like to destroy 4 to 6 bunkers and relocate or fire relocate fire relocate and hope you bust few. i would chose excalibur destry 4 to 6 bunkers relocate wait for coordinates bust few more.

How many shells are we buying? In other words how many times can we fire in first place?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 17 Jul 2019 03:44

Image
Image

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Jul 2019 05:12

Inside surface right?
See the clean perforation through the RCC despite the steel rod grid. and the spalling of the concrete surface due to shear wave set off during the perforation.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Jul 2019 05:15

Niran,
What you refer to is the old Excalibur with the laser guidance. These are new rounds with GPS and INS guidance. Same terminal effects.
Indranil the price is ~$75k per round. The contract was for 300 crores.
And is govt to govt. So there is a US govt ~ 3% charge for administering the purchase.
Until they announce the deliveries we don't know total number.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 17 Jul 2019 07:27

There was no old Excalibur variant with laser guidance. The 1, 1A and 1A2 were all GPS as is the IB round. There is an Excalibur-S variant that has been tested which incorporates multi-mode guidance (Jam resistant GPS from 1B PLUS a SAL seeker for terminal phase). The S variant is offered for sale but no publicly known information points to it having been purchased by the US Army or the USMC (or FMS) though it is quite possible that it may have been done so and used when supporting SF type operations with Artillery. The US Army in the past has demanded a fire-and-forget capability instead of a SAL seeker so Raytheon developed a MMW seeker which it will likely test later this year or early into next year (the seeker was partially motivated by the need to provide more precission against moving surface targets for the Excalibur-N 5 inch gun application). Long term the US Army wants to integrate a low cost LWIR seeker into all long range artillery shells in addition to GPS.

Indranil wrote:How many shells are we buying? In other words how many times can we fire in first place?


No one knows what target or operational need triggered this request from the IA. What we know is that it is operator driven. While additional details may shed some more clarity, I doubt one would be able to home in on the type of target or tactical need the purchase fulfills as it may just be part of a long term plan to gradually build up inventory with an initial batch being acquired via a rapid-procurement authority provided to the services.
Last edited by brar_w on 17 Jul 2019 07:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 17 Jul 2019 07:32

srai wrote:<SDB imagery>



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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby hnair » 17 Jul 2019 08:04

Singha wrote:and we are not exactly abundant in titanium unlike the P2. steel all the way.


eh what? We have one of the largest deposits of titanium (illeminite + rutile) in the planet, right at my backyard. But same as the weakness in chip lithography, turbofans etc, the production of high purity titanium sponge is lagging, due to general lack of focus by GoI down the decades. We instead waste time and resources with Titanium Dioxide production as industrial dye of high refractive index. There is a large factory for rutile based dyes called Travancore Titanium, first setup during the Maharaja's time near the Trivandrum airport/beaches.

At some point, the Maharaja and his smart Dewan had plans (with help of a WW2 victorious Khan, no less :D) for a giant ingot plant that will feed aerospace industry around the world. But India happened. Decades went by and later on, that factory was supposed to make sponge, via MoU with USSR, during a Gorbachev visit :lol: But all it does is to brazenly release effluents into the sea/beach, after making low value TiO2 dye. If you go to the Google Map link I posted above, you can see the effluent plume in the sea water, spreading to the north based on seasonal currents! The local good commies (environmentalists) and bad commies (unions) fight with each other over this in a ritual show. Because they are both in agreement that the factory does not have to change its product line to higher value products

Further north, in the adjoining district of Kollam, there has been talk of a large KMML plant with help of Soviets and now Russia, since early '80s. The ISRO as well as IREL under DAE is also in the game, but even they have not been very mission-like in this effort and not at scale.

Infact the nip-slip that caused the launch abort yesterday is probably from these smaller plants

So to loop back to topic - we can make the entire artillery (except the barrel) out of titanium. Only if we wanted to.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prasad » 17 Jul 2019 10:42

That kmml plant is running at x% capacity (where x<50) btw. We could make them out of Ti but it will be more expensive than buying Ti from abroad.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby RKumar » 17 Jul 2019 23:07

Did anyone spot bhahubali moving up north for some summer, rain and winter trials and training?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 18 Jul 2019 00:02

Folks no need to discuss Ti mfg plant in Arty thread no?
Will led to downward spiral.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 17 Dec 2018

Postby niran » 19 Jul 2019 09:49

Indranil wrote:How many shells are we buying? In other words how many times can we fire in first place?

why? do you think India cannot afford 100 thousand USD per shell ? two kinds of targets for arty
1. mobile, like men trucks tanks
2. stationary, like HQ bunker, Com bunker observation bunker,

against mobile units there is Russi maal, Russi maal proved ineffective against bunkers on Himalayas, low atmospheric pressure terrain wagera necessiate pinpoint accuracy on Himalayas Russi failed so IA buying shells which passed that is excalibur, rest assured it will be in sufficient numbers to burst whole of puke bunkers 4 times and more.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 19 Jul 2019 11:20

niran... cost is always a factor in the indian context. 100 thousand USD is big money in our context.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 19 Jul 2019 14:41

i have been trying find out deliveries of K9, M777 and Dhanush. Not been able to find much on google after March after the initial handing over ceremonies. Is all well? or there is some lull like Tejas MK1 when orders will be delivered in bulk.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 19 Jul 2019 15:53

Article on M777

https://www.financialexpress.com/defence/m777-howitzer-guns-indian-army-range-deal-make-in-india-bae-mahindra-defence/1528269/

Indian Army to get first ‘Make in India’ M777 Howitzer gun by year-end; it’s a big boost!


I guess the 25 imported ones are delivered and now the ones assembled in India will start

and for K9 Vajra

https://www.news18.com/news/india/pm-narendra-modi-inaugurates-larsen-and-toubros-k9-vajra-gun-making-facility-2007781.html

The K9 Vajra contract involves delivery of 100 such systems in 42 months, which is the largest contract awarded to a private company by the Ministry of Defence.


and for Dhanush

https://www.army-technology.com/news/india-first-batch-dhanush-artillery-guns/

A total of 114 Dhanush artillery guns are currently on order. A regiment of 18 guns is expected to be inducted by the end of this year, reported The Economic Times.


Apart from Sarang, I think Army will have about 36 M-777, ~18 K9 Vajra and 18 Dhanush, about 4 new build regiments by the end of 2019. by 2022 all these should be inducted.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 19 Jul 2019 17:45

manjgu wrote:niran... cost is always a factor in the indian context. 100 thousand USD is big money in our context.


On Army's hit list the targets must be many times more expensive hence it's worth buying.


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