Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 27 Nov 2019 02:54

^^^
Specs dictate design choices. That is to say even though requirements don’t state things like barrel length designers are indirectly forced into certain choices in order to meet range and other specifics.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 27 Nov 2019 03:05

nam wrote:Personally, it is difficult for me to believe DRDO themselves decided on 25 litre chamber volume. They were building a artillery for the first time and there was no other known gun in other parts of the world with such chamber volume.

Is this a case where IA asked for longer range and DRDO implemented it through increase chamber volume rather than through PG kit on a shell?


Don't defend DRDO design choices over unfounded rumors. ATAGS will be ordered in volume.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Rakesh » 27 Nov 2019 07:55

Amen to that Cybaru. Order the ATAGS in volumes. Future iterations can be worked on to reduce the weight.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 27 Nov 2019 08:31

similar systems also weigh as much as ATAGS ? one thing about weight ... once u have a approved design of a gun on paper/computer , dont u know what the weight of the finished product will be?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 27 Nov 2019 09:27

Regarding the 25 lt chamber volume. I distinctly recall the South Africans working on something similar for the G5 and G6 upgrades in the late 90s and early 2000.

Then TATA got into a partnership with them. So that could be the origin of this 25 lt chamber. Typically bigger is better. But in this case it is not so.

I wonder if it would be possible to mate bharat 52 gun barrel with its 23 lt chamber to the atags carriage. Just to see the weight implications of that.

It will still be an extremely advanced towed gun.
Last edited by Pratyush on 27 Nov 2019 09:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 27 Nov 2019 09:40

https://www.technoarete.org/common_abstract/pdf/IJERMCE/v5/i4/Ext_92308.pdf

The ATAGS, India‟s first indigenous 155mm/52-caliber towed artillery gun, will be a joint project of two private-sector corporation


Check the table
Manufacturer. Tata Power & SEDKalyani Group


Gun barrel of the ATAGS are made by using the Autofrettage Manufacturing techniques. Autofrettage is metal fabrication technique in which high pressure vessel is subjected to enormous pressure, causing internal portion of the part to yield plastically,resulting in internal compressiveresidual stressesonce the pressure is released. The goal of autofrettage is to increase the durability of the final product. Inducing residual compressive stresses into materials can also increase their resistance tostress corrosion cracking; that is, non-mechanically-assisted cracking that occurs when a material is placed in a corrosive environment in the presence of tensile stress. ATAGS gun barrel has Tantalum or Chrome coating, which provide several advantages to gun barrel


Muzzle brake of the ATAGS manufacture using the Titanium and Aluminum alloy materials.


2.3ATAGS Achievements In trial firing at the PokhranRanges in Rajasthan, the advanced towed artillery gun system (ATAGS) being indigenously developed for the Indian Army demonstrated its potential to be a world-beating system. The 155-millimetre, 52-calibre gun-howitzer fired three shells out to a world-record distance of 48.07 kilometers from the gun position. Earlier, the same gun had broken another record by firing “high explosive –boat tail” (HE –BT) ammunition to a range of 37.2 kilometers. Range, accuracy and consistency are the key attributes of anartillery gun. A longer range allows more area to be engaged from a “gun position”, without having to redeploy (or shift) the guns. The secret of the ATAGS longer range is its larger chamber –25 liters, compared to 23 liters in most 155-millimetre gun


The gun is two ton lighter than guns in the same category and is designed to provide better accuracy and range and is capable of firing five successive rounds in short duration.(ATAGS) being indigenously developed for the Indian Army demonstrated its potential to be a world-beating system.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 27 Nov 2019 10:19

then wtf is the issue...not too heavy..long range...accurate ! a senior retd arty offr on twitter is saying gun is heavy... :eek: whats the truth. i mean did the weight of the gun come out as a surprise for the army?? :roll:

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 27 Nov 2019 10:21

Don't go by one opinion/tweet! :)
Last edited by Cybaru on 27 Nov 2019 11:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 27 Nov 2019 10:42

Some more data points:

The Denel gun which has both version 23 vs 25 L chamber difference is about

RANGE Base Bleed + 8KMS
RANGE HE-VLAP +12KMS

This also means much longer ranges with assisted shells than with 23 liters chamber.

Chart 6 -> https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2004/armaments/DayII/SessionII/09Kruger_52_Cal_Leap_Ahead.pdf

Plus
+ It also sports a six-round magazine instead of the standard three-round magazine.
+ The firing of zone 7 Bi-Modular Charge System (BMCS) is possible only in ATAGS as compared to firing up to zone 5 by M777 and zone 6 by other international contenders.
Last edited by Cybaru on 27 Nov 2019 12:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Nov 2019 10:55

Regarding Pinaka, the DAC clearance and Army plan was to make 10 regiments of PINAKA 1 and 2 by 2022.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 27 Nov 2019 11:00

M1299 data point: Where everyone is headed

https://taskandpurpose.com/army-m1299-howitzer-designation

U.S. Army Yuma Proving Ground conducts developmental testing of multiple facets of the Extended Range Cannon Artillery project, from artillery shells to the longer cannon tube and larger firing chamber the improved howitzer will need to accommodate them on November 18, 2018


"We know we need the range in order to maintain overmatch," Col. John Rafferty, head of the long-range precision fire cross-functional team, told Defense News. "We need 70 to 80 kilometers because that's the start, and then we will be able to get farther. Right now we are on a path to 70 kilometers with ERCA."


If we compare it to yesterday's tech - we could favor companies that are looking to capitalize by selling old stock and not invest in new R&D.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 27 Nov 2019 12:09

Cybaru wrote:Don't go by one opinion/tweet! :)
sure..but he is well respected person with substantial contributions !! i mean i can understand if its about range and/or accuracy but surely not about weight.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 27 Nov 2019 12:14

From all my readings, I think IA has a soft ideal weight req, I do not think it is a hard requirement. If you are going to shoot longer, there is not two ways around it. Order more Dhanush (12K kgs) for regions where 6 tons will make a difference. We have both now. Our mandate really should be to order from our own stables. There is no reason to crib and complain.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 27 Nov 2019 12:57

true... i dont understand why at all there are complaints about weight. seems as though the weight came as a BIG surprise to the user !!!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 27 Nov 2019 13:11

Plus you can possibly get rid of the self-moving bit and reduce weight by a few thousand kgs.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 27 Nov 2019 15:04

So, a former Director General of Artillery, who was also the main force behind Dhanush seeing the light of the day, is just another opinion on Twitter? And guys on this forum, quoting stuff from web are more knowledgeable?

Sigh!

No wonder the quality of discussion is pits!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 27 Nov 2019 15:06

Given our terrain requirements, weight will always be a important criteria, irrespective of the weapon system. Pak decided not to induct Turkish Panter, because of weight issues. It weighs 18 tons, similar to ATAGS, does not even have 25l chamber volume.

The way I look at it, M777 is for places, where Bofors/Dhanush cannot go. Dhanush for places where ATAGS cannot go.

ATAGS can actually become our very long range fire support, deployed in depth. It's range allowing it to be safe from counter battery AND provide counter battery cover for our units.

We should consider getting a 55 caliber version of ATAGS in future, along with PG kit on shells. The PGK is already a project in DRDO.
Last edited by nam on 27 Nov 2019 15:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 27 Nov 2019 15:10

manjgu wrote:then wtf is the issue...not too heavy..long range...accurate ! a senior retd arty offr on twitter is saying gun is heavy... :eek: whats the truth. i mean did the weight of the gun come out as a surprise for the army?? :roll:


Weight will be an issue. If you consider operational requirement in more details, you can definitely see the issue around weight.
It is not easy to calculate the final weight from a design plan. It might have been assumed at 15 ton weight, however once you run your tests, you find out ares of the gun that needs strengthening, which adds to the weight.

Notice how ATAGS has 4 wheel carrier, compared to 2 wheeled for Bofors. The carrier is more powerful and with 4 wells, provides better stability. BUT is heavier!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 27 Nov 2019 17:20

rohitvats wrote:So, a former Director General of Artillery, who was also the main force behind Dhanush seeing the light of the day, is just another opinion on Twitter? And guys on this forum, quoting stuff from web are more knowledgeable?

Sigh!

No wonder the quality of discussion is pits!


Everything is quoted to form your own opinion and the original articles provided. Opinions are labeled appropriately as well.. You can value the context/links/quotes and opinions appropriately.

If you feel discussion is pits, why engage?? :roll:

People have biases - even retired chiefs..
Look at ex naval chief wanting imports and running down nlca or a retd Air Marshal quoting wrong stuff on twitter or ex air chief poo pooing htt40. Doesn’t mean these projects are bad or doomed or the chiefs were right..
Last edited by Cybaru on 28 Nov 2019 01:04, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 27 Nov 2019 18:35

rohitvats wrote:So, a former Director General of Artillery, who was also the main force behind Dhanush seeing the light of the day, is just another opinion on Twitter? And guys on this forum, quoting stuff from web are more knowledgeable?

Sigh!

No wonder the quality of discussion is pits!


One possible reason why the weight of a competing product from Private sector is being mentioned? The 52 caliber version of Dhanush gun will be ready soon and will be in competition with ATAGS for additional orders.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 27 Nov 2019 19:26

I don't truly understand the argument with the weight of the ATAGS. I mean that the gun has an APU that can be slaved to the engine of the FAT in difficult terrain to make a defacto articulated 10*10. So the issue is not really relevant.

So the other issue would be axle load limit.

But then the areas where it is a genuine issue the problem will be with the FAT as well along with any ammunition carriers.

The only vehicle immune from it will be the stallion 4*4.

Trying to explore the potential concerns that can effect the combat deployment.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srin » 27 Nov 2019 19:38

There is a trade-off between firepower, mobility and cost. If you pick cost (steel, no titanium) and firepower (very high range in this case), then you're going to suffer wrt to mobility.
I'd be interested to see what choice the army makes. For the first time, they can have the gun they want (and not what a foreign vendor has decided for them).
Second, I tried looking up the weight of Athos 2052 (which won the towed gun competition and apparently cheaper than ATAGS), but couldn't. I'd love to see that as a data point.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 28 Nov 2019 14:12

https://defense-update.com/20191127_lon ... llery.html


76 km shot with VLAP. Using 25 lt chamber.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 28 Nov 2019 15:23

rohitvats wrote:So, a former Director General of Artillery, who was also the main force behind Dhanush seeing the light of the day, is just another opinion on Twitter? And guys on this forum, quoting stuff from web are more knowledgeable?

Sigh!

No wonder the quality of discussion is pits!

Rohit one question for you, do ATAGS and dhanush compete in any way. It's not uncommon and perhaps completely human to prefer your baby and find faults in others. If they dont overlap, then general's opinion would be every more valuable (it is an extermely important PoV in any case, at least to me) otherwise, it depends upon the professionalism of individual. Given general's drive to drive desi maal, in case of doubt, my vote of support (not that it matters) will be for him only..

however, if i were a paki (though not far from it), i would induct the gun anyways..thinking 'jaha kahin gola girega marenge to dushman hi' :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kanson » 28 Nov 2019 16:00

Pratyush wrote:https://defense-update.com/20191127_long_range_artillery.html


76 km shot with VLAP. Using 25 lt chamber.


If one uses the same projectile then DRDO ATAGS outperforms Denel 155mm G6 25L chamber gun by 10%.

This is where the equation stands now. If Denel G6 can fire VLAP to 76 km, the same projectile will reach roughly 10% more if it uses ATAGS system, i.e. 84 km.

As a gun, ATAGS is the longest firing weapon in its caliber.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 30 Nov 2019 12:04

Rheinmetall to jumps in the faster longer further contest with a 60 cal barrel and "significantly larger chamber".
https://www.janes.com/article/92909/rhe ... e-howitzer

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ashishvikas » 02 Dec 2019 17:12

Import of 400+1180 Israeli Howitzer on the cards ?

http://epaper.mailtoday.in/2444574/Mail ... #page/11/2

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Dec 2019 17:26

ashishvikas wrote:Import of 400+1180 Israeli Howitzer on the cards ?

http://epaper.mailtoday.in/2444574/Mail ... #page/11/2

Highly Unlikely, you need cancel ATAGS and Dhanush and related orders. More like a Marketing proposal.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 02 Dec 2019 18:51

ashishvikas wrote:Import of 400+1180 Israeli Howitzer on the cards ?

http://epaper.mailtoday.in/2444574/Mail ... #page/11/2


Sandeep Unnithan does NOT reflect the view of the Army. The article too is hazy in language and does not emphatically say IA is going ahead with the proposal shelved in 2007.

This article is a classic case of paid marketing.

A key takeway from the article is Lt. Gen. Shankar's reservation of the Israeli gun's structural integrity after it failed tests.

Personally I would prefer further development of Bofors/Dhanush 155/52 cal and its tracked, wheeled and towed/APU versions.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 02 Dec 2019 19:24

^^^
As per the article the bids were only opened in 2017, this tender has not been cancelled officially (AFAIK). If I was the dalal in charge I'd try to get a limited number inducted under the Chiefs discretionary power and delay ATAGS/Dhanush-52 in never ending trials until the importgiri option becomes fait accompli.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 03 Dec 2019 00:45

The whole thing is interesting.. The Israeli towed artillery is suppose to be assembled by.. Bharat Forge.

Bharat Forge is also the nodal agency for ATAGS..!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 03 Dec 2019 03:02

and also they have couple of their own designs (and a stripped down artillery factory imported from abroad and reassembled it in Desh without loosing a single nut or bolt). Me think, it is the dalal lobby. We have too many designs for our own guns + guns are not the hardest thing to make, have been around for at least 500 years, and unlike say stealth, or jet engine (hot parts - blades etc) or new clear reactor for subs/AC or …..nothing in the gun is that we cannot make with our industrial base 5 times over.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby agupta » 03 Dec 2019 05:24

Not that confusing when one puts time on the X-axis of the graph ... the original Elbit/BF JV was born in the 200X; BF deciding to go all in and push for organic capabilities fruited in the 201X, so I would guess a decade apart.

Fanne ji: "+ guns are not the hardest thing to make, have been around for at least 500 years, and unlike..." ???

We have ONE organic DESIGN (in prototypes) in ATAGS , i.e., NOT a [matured, manufactured, fielded, serviceable product at scale] so far...

I would argue that this inability to distinguish between these 2 states of development IS the achilles heel - and its clearly as evident in BRF's thinking-corps as in the rest of Indian MIC/Decision making.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 03 Dec 2019 10:20

First of all, to call Elbit/SOLTAM's solution matured is itself a bit dodgy. How many Elbit arty guns are in service with customers of the scale of the Indian Army? A predecessor, the ATMOS was basically shopped around to a handful of African countries and SOLTAM's 155mm upgrades shopped to the Indian Army were themselves stopped after it emerged they had systemic flaws. The OFB has its own 155mm upgrade in service as a result.

We have to get out of the habit of treating the Israelis as some kind of divine answer to our problems. They operate firmly in start up culture, and we are often the (un)willing victims of some of their less than mature products which are not rectified or are rectified after heavy expenditure. The occasional SPICE etc takes up all the PR mindspace. Some of the stuff they have shopped around to our "top" organizations has been less than stellar, forcing us to look for alternate solutions. In other cases, it has worked well (SPICE etc). Its a mixed bag, as always.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby agupta » 03 Dec 2019 10:37

Karan M wrote:First of all, to call Elbit/SOLTAM's solution matured is itself a bit dodgy.
...
The OFB has its own 155mm upgrade in service as a result.
.


Errr... where did I call Elbit proposal "mature" ? Good riddance IMO in '07 itself.

And which OFB upgrade is IN SERVICE ??? (Present continuous tense...) vs. Expected to be "soon" (Dhanush reference I expect)? A mature Dhanush with multiple years of production and service experience to define fielded quality is what would constitute a "mature product" vs. a "new product"

My comment was strictly about Fanne essentially saying "guns have been made for 500 yrs...piece of cake for us" ;) <Para phrasing of course>

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 03 Dec 2019 12:51

You are mixing up products, looks like.

The upgrade I am referring to is the OFB Sharang, which is a 155mm upgrade of the 130mm M-46s. 300 are to be upgraded.Deal was signed in October 2018, and it cleared a confirmatory set of trials in January 2019 with all 300 sets to be delivered by 2022.

Dhanush is a different project, its a new build and an order for 114 has been placed, with the first batch delivered in April 2019.

Also, where did I refer to the OFB upgrade as mature? I merely pointed out OFB upgrade was chosen because they cleared trials, and the need came about as the Israeli Soltam one's were a flop. In other words, the good General who was skeptical about the QA for the Athos may have a point.

While the Dhanush entered service in April 2019, its been put through heavy tests + is based off a proven design, so hopefully will be ok. Time will tell.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 04 Dec 2019 18:37

^^^OFB upgrade of M-46 itself borrows heavily from the kits supplied bu SOLTAM for Phase-1 upgrade of 180 guns.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 05 Dec 2019 00:11

rohitvats wrote:^^^OFB upgrade of M-46 itself borrows heavily from the kits supplied bu SOLTAM for Phase-1 upgrade of 180 guns.


It may have borrowed stuff, but the fact that the soltam upgrade was cancelled reflects the reality that the Israeli solution was not complete and had overlooked some critical aspect which made the final product not good enough. We dont see cancellations of accepted ordnance otherwise. Any engineering solution builds on top of the last iteration.. so does the OFB product.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 05 Dec 2019 00:49

Well the OFB Dhanush borrows from the Bofors gun as well. ;)

As Deng Xiao Ping famously said "who cares about the color of the cat, as long as it catches mice" when asked if China was dropping communism for capitalism.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 05 Dec 2019 01:16

I remember this video that I saw about a year back. At around 5:18, the official categorically said that the gun is significantly better than Soltam.



The background music in this video is worthy of a facepalm. The content is really good.


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