Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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ArjunPandit
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Dec 2019 01:16

Karan M wrote:The upgrade I am referring to is the OFB Sharang, which is a 155mm upgrade of the 130mm M-46s. 300 are to be upgraded.Deal was signed in October 2018, and it cleared a confirmatory set of trials in January 2019 with all 300 sets to be delivered by 2022.

i thought we had 1000s of M46s..why just 300, is it the order before the order before the order

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 05 Dec 2019 01:32

Sooner or later even the upgraded M-46's have to be replaced with Dhanush. The upgraded M-46 is a suboptimal solution because of the elevation limit of the original gun but it will do for now.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Dec 2019 02:11

nachiket ji..they do fill in huge numbers..

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 05 Dec 2019 02:19

My view on why only 300, it could be some of the older guns might be decommissioned.

However 1500 ATAGS, 414 Dhanush, 300 Sarang, 100 K9, 800 MGS: 3200+ 155M guns! That is a huge demand for 155MM ammo.

Heavier round, so the numbers supplied will be less, compared to 105 & 122.

Having 105MM & 120MM helps to manage ammo demand. It is better to have a 105 round, than run out of 155 round!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 05 Dec 2019 02:23

nam wrote:However 1500 ATAGS, 414 Dhanush, 300 Sarang, 100 K9, 800 MGS: 3200+ 155M guns! That is a huge demand for 155MM ammo.

Where are these numbers from? ATAGS has not been ordered. Dhanush order is only 114 till now. The follow on order has not been placed. No MGS order yet either. A selection is yet to be made for that.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 05 Dec 2019 15:00

nachiket wrote:
nam wrote:However 1500 ATAGS, 414 Dhanush, 300 Sarang, 100 K9, 800 MGS: 3200+ 155M guns! That is a huge demand for 155MM ammo.

Where are these numbers from? ATAGS has not been ordered. Dhanush order is only 114 till now. The follow on order has not been placed. No MGS order yet either. A selection is yet to be made for that.


Talking about IA's planned Artillery program. Based on the intention to replace older kit, as proposed by IA, we will become medium heavy.

The number of Sarangs rolled out would depend on this Artillery roadmap.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 06 Dec 2019 01:51

ArjunPandit wrote:
Karan M wrote:The upgrade I am referring to is the OFB Sharang, which is a 155mm upgrade of the 130mm M-46s. 300 are to be upgraded.Deal was signed in October 2018, and it cleared a confirmatory set of trials in January 2019 with all 300 sets to be delivered by 2022.

i thought we had 1000s of M46s..why just 300, is it the order before the order before the order


Total upgraded will be 480 guns [180 Soltam (2000-2008) plus 300 OFB Sharang (2018-2022)] out of estimated 1000 130mm guns still in service. Soltam upgrades may not have been successful though. Follow-on 250 gun upgrade did not occur.

There would be tens of thousands of 130mm shells and other spares rest of the non-upgraded guns would continue to utilize.

Defence Ministry signs Rs 200 crore contract to upgun 130 mm howitzers
...

Fifteen regiments comprising 300 towed artillery pieces will be upgraded to the 155/45 mm calibre in the contract signed between the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and MoD in South Block on October 25. All upgraded guns will be supplied to the Indian Army by 2022.
The upgrade will replace the barrel and breech block and add new sighting systems and a new hydraulic rammer to ease loading of shells. OFB officials term the up-gunning 100 per cent indigenous and a highly cost-effective solution to augment the Army’s firepower. The Sharang upgrade kit costs less than Rs 70 lakh per gun, or less than one-fifth the cost of a brand new towed field artillery piece. The Army had floated an RFP in 2013 to upgun 300 of its M-46 guns. The Army has close to 1000 of the 130 mm guns that were acquired from the former Soviet Union beginning in 1968.
...

The Army currently has around 180 of the 155 mm field guns that were upgraded by Israeli firm Soltam under Project Karan in 2008.

...

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 06 Dec 2019 04:02

Good job OFB. From Rs 1 crore per gun for the initial upgrade of prototypes (8 guns), the cost has gone below Rs70 lakhs with economies of scale kicking in. We hope they do not stop at upgrading just 300 guns.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2019 09:48

This is the real good part.

The OFB offer emerged the cheapest edging out contenders from two foreign competitors, a consortium of Punj Lloyd and Yugo Import and Bharat Forge and Soltam. The OFB fully indigenous solution the Sharang’ (Vishnu’s bow) field howitzer bested its competitor in various performance parameters during Field Evaluation Trials at the Pokhran range. The parameters include maximum range, direct fire, the rate of fire, accuracy and consistency made it the only compliant gun after the completion of trials. The gun repeated its performance in the second round of re-confirmatory trials at Pokharan in January this year.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Dec 2019 10:30

srai wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:i thought we had 1000s of M46s..why just 300, is it the order before the order before the order


Total upgraded will be 480 guns [180 Soltam (2000-2008) plus 300 OFB Sharang (2018-2022)] out of estimated 1000 130mm guns still in service. Soltam upgrades may not have been successful though. Follow-on 250 gun upgrade did not occur.

There would be tens of thousands of 130mm shells and other spares rest of the non-upgraded guns would continue to utilize.

Defence Ministry signs Rs 200 crore contract to upgun 130 mm howitzers
...

Fifteen regiments comprising 300 towed artillery pieces will be upgraded to the 155/45 mm calibre in the contract signed between the state-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) and MoD in South Block on October 25. All upgraded guns will be supplied to the Indian Army by 2022.
The upgrade will replace the barrel and breech block and add new sighting systems and a new hydraulic rammer to ease loading of shells. OFB officials term the up-gunning 100 per cent indigenous and a highly cost-effective solution to augment the Army’s firepower. The Sharang upgrade kit costs less than Rs 70 lakh per gun, or less than one-fifth the cost of a brand new towed field artillery piece. The Army had floated an RFP in 2013 to upgun 300 of its M-46 guns. The Army has close to 1000 of the 130 mm guns that were acquired from the former Soviet Union beginning in 1968.
...

The Army currently has around 180 of the 155 mm field guns that were upgraded by Israeli firm Soltam under Project Karan in 2008.

...


The original upgrade was good but it fell to post 2004 Pakistani Bonhomie, Indian Artillery and Denel anti material rifles, ATGM's were seen as causing too many Pakistani Army casualties and hence cancelled- Soltam deal was alleged as corrupt. So the original upgrade between 2003-08 was allowed, rest were scrapped.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2019 12:23

It was not merely that, there were issues with the guns.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 06 Dec 2019 15:07

The original plan was for 600 M46 to be upgraded. 180 first lot, followed by another 420. OFB had a competing solution at that time as well.
Unfortunately, during firing trials, the barrel of the OFB upgraded gun, burst (most likely due to faulty ammo) and the contract was awarded to Soltam.
Subsequently, Soltam was blacklisted along with Denel, Rheinmetal, St-Kinetics etc. during the UPA era, due to various bribery allegations.
Also, the performance of the gun, wasn't as good as what was expected and hence, no follow on orders. However, the 180 upgraded guns continue to be in use, I think.

For the current requirement, the OFB solution beat all the others in price and performance. OFB learning from the Dhanush experience, offered better targeting systems and also the addition of the hydraulic rammer is good. The M46 is very man power intensive gun, as compared to modern Howitzers.
Maybe if the 300 gun upgrade is successful, IA can opt for additional numbers in the future if they want.
However, any upgrade of the M46, will still have the limitation of the elevation angle, no powerpack and no pre-loaded magazine for high fire rates, etc.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 06 Dec 2019 18:41

rohitvats wrote:^^^OFB upgrade of M-46 itself borrows heavily from the kits supplied bu SOLTAM for Phase-1 upgrade of 180 guns.

mody wrote:Unfortunately, during firing trials, the barrel of the OFB upgraded gun, burst (most likely due to faulty ammo) and the contract was awarded to Soltam.

:shock:

Karan M wrote:It was not merely that, there were issues with the guns.

Correct

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/130_mm_to ... 1954_(M-46)
M-46S – This is an upgrade of an existing M-46 or Type 59, carried out by Soltam Systems Ltd. The original barrel is replaced by a new model of 155/45mm (western ammunition) for a range of 25.8 (HE) to 39 km (ERFB-BB). A 39-calibre barrel is optional. In March 2000, Soltam won a contract worth $47,524,137 for upgrading 180 M-46s to M-46S standard (Indian designator: 155/45mm (E1) Soltam). A follow-on deal for 250 retrofit kits was optioned for. In 2005, after only 40 howitzers were modified, the M-46S programme was terminated due to a fatal barrel explosion.[13]


The Soltam upgrade was a complete failure and the Israeli pulled a fast one on us. The barrel explosion happened on Soltam guns.

OFB 2018 upgrade is completely indigenous and uses metallurgical, technical and manufacturing lessons from Dhanush program.

Image

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 07 Dec 2019 14:52

Below is the link to photo showing the OFB version of the M46 upgrade from around 2002-2003. It was displayed in Defexpo in Delhi.
By the way the OFB upgrade of the Bofors with 45 cal barrel was also displayed at the same defexpo. Perhaps at the time it was only an upgrade of the barrel from 39 cal to 45 cal.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/Asie/In ... dia_01.jpg

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 09 Dec 2019 12:22

mody wrote:Below is the link to photo showing the OFB version of the M46 upgrade from around 2002-2003. It was displayed in Defexpo in Delhi.
By the way the OFB upgrade of the Bofors with 45 cal barrel was also displayed at the same defexpo. Perhaps at the time it was only an upgrade of the barrel from 39 cal to 45 cal.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/Asie/In ... dia_01.jpg


The current gun looks and actually is nothing like the old gun. Its way evolved

https://images.assettype.com/swarajya/2 ... uto=format

Presently OFB is India's best Center of Excellence in Artillery and not ARDE. Ideally OFB should lead artillery development going forward. They've silently invested a lot of time, energy, effort and knowledge creation supported by IA officers like Gen Shankar.

Kakarat had taken some good photos that he can post here

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 09 Dec 2019 12:50

tsarkar wrote:
Kakarat had taken some good photos that he can post here


Are you talking about these sir?

https://twitter.com/kakarat2001/status/ ... 4371426310

Image
Image
Image
Image

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 09 Dec 2019 13:09

Yes. Your photos are the best photos of the Sharang on the internet showing a great deal of details. Thank you for doing a great job of taking these photos in the hot sun.

As one can see, Sharang is different than Israeli or older OFB designs.

While I've been quite critical of OFB in many areas, on this domain OFB has performed phenomenally well with Sharang and Dhanush.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 09 Dec 2019 13:23

tsarkar wrote:Yes. Your photos are the best photos of the Sharang on the internet showing a great deal of details. Thank you for doing a great job of taking these photos in the hot sun.

As one can see, Sharang is different than Israeli or older OFB designs.

While I've been quite critical of OFB in many areas, on this domain OFB has performed phenomenally well with Sharang and Dhanush.


Thank You sir

I have High resolution version available, they were shot at 18MP and posted only cropped & scaled images on twitter. If you want I would be happy to send you the originals by mail

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 09 Dec 2019 15:04

tsarkar wrote:
mody wrote:Below is the link to photo showing the OFB version of the M46 upgrade from around 2002-2003. It was displayed in Defexpo in Delhi.
By the way the OFB upgrade of the Bofors with 45 cal barrel was also displayed at the same defexpo. Perhaps at the time it was only an upgrade of the barrel from 39 cal to 45 cal.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/Asie/In ... dia_01.jpg


The current gun looks and actually is nothing like the old gun. Its way evolved

https://images.assettype.com/swarajya/2 ... uto=format

Presently OFB is India's best Center of Excellence in Artillery and not ARDE. Ideally OFB should lead artillery development going forward. They've silently invested a lot of time, energy, effort and knowledge creation supported by IA officers like Gen Shankar.

Kakarat had taken some good photos that he can post here


Yes the current Sharang upgrade as evolved from the solution offered in 2002-3. The muzzle break is different and instantly recognizable. Apart from that some lessons learnt from the Dhanush program have made their way to the Sharang project. As I mentioned in one of my posts above, the targeting offered on the Sharang by the OFB, is better then that offered by the competitors and also the haydraulic ram.

By the way, the 45 cal upgrade of the original bofors offered by the OFB in 2002-03, also featured a muzzle break design same as the old OFB M46 upgrade. The Dhanush has evolved further from those early days. Just that it took so many years to go through with the program and only now the guns are entering service.
Though in Indian defence context, better late then never.
I hope the testing of the Dhanush-52 guns also begin quickly and an order of the pending 300 guns, earmarked for the Dhanush project, is placed on the OFB for Dhanush-52 guns.
The Jabalpur vehicles factory should be taken over by GCF, to increase the production rate. Stallion trucks can be supplied directly by Ashok Leyland.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 10 Dec 2019 02:58

Image

Were those two rear “light mobility” wheels part of original 130mm guns? Or is it something new from OFB?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vips » 10 Dec 2019 03:07

Indian Army fires lethal Excalibur artillery ammunition in Pokhran.

The Indian Army tested its latest artillery ammunition, the Excalibur precision-guided shells from the US-made M777 Howitzer in Pokhran on Monday.
This is the first time the Excalibur ammunition was tested since its procurement in October.

The Indian Army procured over 600 rounds of the Excalibur ammunition from the US in October to increase the firepower of artillery. The ammunition can be fired from all 155 mm guns. This includes Bofors, M777 Howitzer, K9 Vajra and Dhanush artillery guns.

The procurement was done after emergency powers were given to vice chief to fast-track critical purchases in wake of ammunition shortage in the Indian army. The US Embassy in India tweeted about the tests done on Monday.

Indian army bought two types of Excalibur. There were 500 rounds of ammunition that could that have the accuracy of 20 metres from the target and over 100 rounds that can strike as close as 2 metres to the target.

Army sources said the tests were done a firing analysis will be done to make an assessment.

Along with the Excalibur, a precision-guided kit that is put on shells to increase the accuracy of the target were also fired as part of the tests.

The Excalibur ammunition has more range and better accuracy that makes it lethal can hit targets at 40-50 km depending on the artillery gun used.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 10 Dec 2019 10:34

^^^
Is that DDM? I didn't know there were 2 versions of Excalibur.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 10 Dec 2019 11:32

srai wrote:
Were those two rear “light mobility” wheels part of original 130mm guns? Or is it something new from OFB?


Part of the original m46. The upgrade has retained the carriage.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 10 Dec 2019 20:45

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 8452167680
WATCH: Visuals of Indian Army testing the Excalibur 155 mm 39 caliber howitzer shell at the Pokhran Field Firing Ranges in Rajasthan, yesterday, 09 Dec 2019

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 10 Dec 2019 22:24


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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 10 Dec 2019 22:35

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status/1204406588452167680
WATCH: Visuals of Indian Army testing the Excalibur 155 mm 39 caliber howitzer shell at the Pokhran Field Firing Ranges in Rajasthan, yesterday, 09 Dec 2019

is there any plans for indigenization or desi analogue of excalibur?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 11 Dec 2019 05:31

Excalibur test - one test where the target was a tin she'd was in air burst mode. The video show above is explosion after penetrating the ground. Excalibur comes with a three way programmable fuze - air burst, ground penetration and standard impact.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 11 Dec 2019 12:01

Need to see videos of tests in high altitude mountainous terrain. Russian ones didn’t fair too well.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Dec 2019 09:03

Vips wrote:Indian Army fires lethal Excalibur artillery ammunition in Pokhran.

The Indian Army tested its latest artillery ammunition, the Excalibur precision-guided shells from the US-made M777 Howitzer in Pokhran on Monday.
This is the first time the Excalibur ammunition was tested since its procurement in October.

The Indian Army procured over 600 rounds of the Excalibur ammunition from the US in October to increase the firepower of artillery. The ammunition can be fired from all 155 mm guns. This includes Bofors, M777 Howitzer, K9 Vajra and Dhanush artillery guns.

The procurement was done after emergency powers were given to vice chief to fast-track critical purchases in wake of ammunition shortage in the Indian army. The US Embassy in India tweeted about the tests done on Monday.

Indian army bought two types of Excalibur. There were 500 rounds of ammunition that could that have the accuracy of 20 metres from the target and over 100 rounds that can strike as close as 2 metres to the target.

Army sources said the tests were done a firing analysis will be done to make an assessment.

Along with the Excalibur, a precision-guided kit that is put on shells to increase the accuracy of the target were also fired as part of the tests.

The Excalibur ammunition has more range and better accuracy that makes it lethal can hit targets at 40-50 km depending on the artillery gun used.


Excalibur in two versions and PGK fuze tested.

Study the small diameter penetration hole and the Balakot strike.

Same effects. Everything inside gets destroyed yet target is still standing.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Dec 2019 09:06

The sand bags over concrete slab is typical field fortification design in US Army manuals.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby sajaym » 12 Dec 2019 10:03

Vips wrote:Indian army bought two types of Excalibur. There were 500 rounds of ammunition that could that have the accuracy of 20 metres from the target and over 100 rounds that can strike as close as 2 metres to the target.

Along with the Excalibur, a precision-guided kit that is put on shells to increase the accuracy of the target were also fired as part of the tests.


Please correct me if I'm wrong, from the above it seems like IA bought Excalibur in two forms:
1) The regular Excalibur round - 100 rounds.
2) Excalibur precision-guided kit - 500 nos.

ArjunPandit wrote:is there any plans for indigenization or desi analogue of excalibur?


If we have bought Excalibur 'Kits', then the DRDO abduls should waste no time in reverse engineering it. But if we haven't bought Excalibur kits, then it seems that some abdul has already developed 'a precision-guided kit to put on shells'. Which is also good news.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 Dec 2019 14:59

No. The 20m accuracy rounds are GPS.
2m accuracy are the laser guided rounds.
Optics cost more
The PKG fuze gives 10m to 20m accuracy.

I want to see pictures if those being used.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby brar_w » 12 Dec 2019 20:54

Laser guided Excalibur rounds are not cleared for use. They were an internally developed S variant by Raytheon that combined the standard Excalibur guidance with a SAL seeker but it was never taken to fruition by the US Army or USMC, with both the services asking Raytheon to focus on adding a MMW and/or LWIR seeker on the weapon so that it can be used for multi-dommain operations and for true fire-and-forget use. Hence the S never completed its dev/ops testing and was never cut into production (based on open source information). The MMW seeker is more advanced but it too is not yet in production. The current round comes in only one form - GPS Guidance with a 2m or better accuracy for the 1B variant which is the only round in production as fas as I can tell. I don't know what the article is talking about with reference to a "20m" accuracy rounds. Perhaps PGK kits were procured as well. There is no Excalibur variant with accuracy claims (CEP) that are that large.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 12 Dec 2019 22:54

abhik wrote:^^^
Is that DDM? I didn't know there were 2 versions of Excalibur.


Looks like PGK vs proper ex-calibur.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 12 Dec 2019 23:47

Rohit,

Remember our conversation a few moons back. The world over, the artillery guns are becoming larger because the shells can correct trajectory to reduce CEP. Here's another case from the US shores.

Image

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 13 Dec 2019 02:07

We should get a 55 cal version of ATAGS, once the initial batch is inducted. I am sure as hell, once this thing is inducted in US Army, people will start singing how 25l is the future after sliced bread.
Image

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Vamsee » 13 Dec 2019 03:46

Two regiments of Pinaka have been
inducted and became fully operational
in 2010. Next two regiments are under
induction. Production of Regt No.
5 to 10 is expected to commence
shortly after finalisation of contracts.
Army has decided to induct total 22
regiments and 1.89 lakhs rockets.

With this, anticipated return will be
of the order of Rs. 61000 cr against R&D cost of Rs. 55 cr,
8) leading to an
unparalleled return on investment.
Now ToT for Pinaka rocket system has
been handed over to private industry,
and with MoD releasing the RFP on
private industry for manufacture and
supply of rockets, Pinaka MBRLS is set
to scale new heights. Pinaka MBRLS
also has very high export potential,
with some friendly countries showing
keen interest in the weapon systems


https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/files/technology-focus-documrnt/TF_Dec_2019_Web.pdf

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 13 Dec 2019 04:11

Any news on new 90/120 KM project?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 13 Dec 2019 07:57

Vamsee wrote:
Two regiments of Pinaka have been inducted and became fully operational in 2010. Next two regiments are under induction. Production of Regt No.5 to 10 is expected to commence shortly after finalisation of contracts. Army has decided to induct total 22 regiments

https://www.drdo.gov.in/sites/default/files/technology-focus-documrnt/TF_Dec_2019_Web.pdf

We have been hearing about the next two regiments and the other six regiments for quite some time now. After the first two regiments in c. 2010, there has been a long gap of 9 years. Hopefully, the wait is because of upgrades and the new regiments would have Pinaka II & Guided Pinaka.

In September 2016, the CCS cleared the 3rd & 4th regiments of Pinaka at a cost of Rs. 3300 Crores. The Defence Acquisition Committee (DAC) had also cleared, on 7th November 2016, an additional six regiments valued at Rs. 14,633 Crores.

The cost difference between Regiments 3/4 and 5 thro' 10 show that the latter would be Pinaka II/Guided Pinaka.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 13 Dec 2019 08:09

Cybaru wrote:Any news on new 90/120 KM project?

I believe that Pinaka II may have a range of 90 Kms though DRDO speaks only of 60+ Kms.


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