Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
mody
BRFite
Posts: 593
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 25 Dec 2019 14:49

An Indian version of Excalibur shells, hopefully with indigenous GPS/IRNSS guidance chip and costing about 20-30% of what the Excalibur costs, would be huge boost. Would have a range of close to 60-70 Kms with the ATAGS gun.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18889
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 25 Dec 2019 15:04

fanne wrote:so Mk2 version has been cancelled (maybe in favor of Mk3, which is still in dev)?


The Mk3 is nothing but the current Pinaka guided version.

This is the trend of development.
Mk1 - Pinaka
Extended range (without guidance) Pinaka - this was called Mk2 in media
The tech is now being used to extend Mk1, its now called Mk1A by DRDO
Extended range (with guidance) Pinaka - this too went with 2 variants, and is now the reduced CEP variant, this is called Pinaka Guided
122 mm ER - these are Grad rockets using Pinaka tech, but unguided

So basically 3 overall types will be in production
Pinaka Mk1A - fit existing launchers
Guided Pinaka - 4 rounds per launcher
122 mm ER - for Grad BM-21

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 18889
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Karan M » 25 Dec 2019 15:06

Prem Kumar wrote:Infuriating & sad at the same time! Read today's piece by one of the key movers behind Pinaka (Lt Gen Palepur Shankar). If the reduction in Pinaka regiments from 22 to 10 is true, this is shocking!

https://palepurshankar.blogspot.com/2019/12/pinaka-in-conventional-non-contact.html


We must also note the IA went through a recapitalization of the BM-21 regiments with new vehicles and now the new ammo, that DRDO notes the 22 regiment overall of Pinaka is still there, and that MBRLs have a much higher minimum range than an 155mm Arty gun.

In short, wait for more info, dont jump the gun (pun intended).

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2882
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 25 Dec 2019 16:04

With Grad upgrade with ER rockets, fundamentally what we have is Grad getting converted to Pinaka 1 with 40KM. Granted the rocket size is different, but the volume and range will be similar.

Since we are not throwing away Grad, it is not the end of the world.

It also makes sense to increase 155MM holdings given the attrition warfare on LC is the real war. We need 155MM volume fire in POK.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2415
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 25 Dec 2019 17:21

Karan M wrote:We must also note the IA went through a recapitalization of the BM-21 regiments with new vehicles and now the new ammo, that DRDO notes the 22 regiment overall of Pinaka is still there, and that MBRLs have a much higher minimum range than an 155mm Arty gun.

In short, wait for more info, dont jump the gun (pun intended).


Its not my grouse that Pinaka regiment reduction is offset by 155mm Artillery gun increase. For a country our size and ridiculously low holdings, we need both. I am only pointing towards the reduction in Pinaka orders.

I also read the DRDO tech focus that claims that the 22 regiment order is still on. Lt Gen Shankar claims that its not so. Given that DRDO is the OEM and the Lt Gen used to be the user, the former tends to be more optimistic. They keep talking about NAG orders which have never materialized in time or to the extent they wanted.

Its my wish that DRDO's hopes are proved correct, rather than the Lt Gen's fears.

Also, he points to other issues: serial development via Testing-->Induction-->Upgrade route, rather than concurrent engineering. I just hope that we aren't falling back to old, bad habits. The lost artillery decades are too fresh in memory.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2882
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 25 Dec 2019 17:23

There is no point inducting 22 or 50 Pinaka regiments, when OFB cannot produce enough rockets. Just like it cannot produce shells for thousands of 155MM we plan to induct.

Let us clean up our supply problems. Orders can always be placed.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Dec 2019 03:51

Well said.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3270
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 26 Dec 2019 04:46

But 155 shells is not a tech issue or even a money issue. It is simply a policy issue. Let OFB continue to produce dismal amounts of 155 shells. Stand up 3-4 private players to produce these shells (with tech transfer from DRDO/anyone). In due time if OFB can be reformed, great, else there order book can be reduced to 0 while we have private parties producing shells. We can then also incentivize them for R&D in shells (like Excalibur rounds or whatever is the new horizon then). They can also export and lower the cost.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4402
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 26 Dec 2019 05:35

^^^
True. Enough quantities to go around for multiple public and private companies to be involved in. Best time to set up as many of the private Vertical integrators and Tier-1 level manufacturers as possible. The ones that perform the best (time, quantity, quality) gets the majority production share, while the weakest ones get phased out.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Dec 2019 06:18

Fanne, Look at Bharat Forge. They make shell casings. OFB does filling. And fuses same story.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3270
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 26 Dec 2019 06:28

But let x players (1<x<10) do all three and be efficient. In Kargil we fired .25 million shells. I am sure every day duels, we are firing in thousands. Cheaper, better quality and better technology (guided etc.) can do wonders. If we ever do this right there is need for few millions shells in few years, one would need multiple efficient high quality players doing it (and OFB is not it, definitely not the only one). Imagine as of today, we did not have just 600 Excalibur shells, but say 60,000 (at a very low price, maybe based on NAVIC), I would bet the cross border shelling would stop today at our terms!!

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Dec 2019 07:25

Kargil majority of shells fired were 105 mm.
Don't try to fight last war.

If you stock up do much stuff ages and goes obsolete or rather stale.
IA knows what they are doing.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 26 Dec 2019 07:27

No they don't need to fire in thousands.

Just 4 shells destroyed a bridge across LOC. Please do read the Border thread.

And the Pakis are not bothering to rebuild the bridge.

The 4 shells represent 400 lb bomb using the Time on Target appdoach.

Raghunathgb
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 93
Joined: 23 Apr 2019 18:16

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Raghunathgb » 28 Dec 2019 23:43

http://bwdefence.businessworld.in/article/Our-Vision-Is-To-Emerge-As-a-Global-Leader-In-The-Manufacturing-Of-Industrial-Military-Explosives-Manish-Nuwal/16-09-2019-176194/

Has order for production of guided pinaka already issued ?


Could you talk about your future propositions that you will be catering to the needs of the Armed Forces?

Our foray into defence segment made us the country’s leading manufacturer of Ammunition in the private sector. During the first quarter of FY20, we received order for Guided Pinaka Rocket from Ministry of Defence.



Additionally solar industries has also bagged orders to manufacture bhramos booster.


Could you talk about your core competencies and the range of defence products for the Armed Forces?

We have created the state of art facilities backed by our strong team.

We have secured Transfer of Technology (TOT) agreement from Government of India for manufacturing propellant booster for Brahmos missile and Pinaka Rocket. The defence products for the Armed forces include High Energy Materials (HMX, RDX, TNT & Compounds), Composite Propellants for (Pinaka, Akash, Brahmos etc), Filling of Ammunitions, Fuses, pyros and Ignitiors and Rocket Integration. We are one of the most integrated players in the ammunition space.

Atmavik
BRFite
Posts: 699
Joined: 24 Aug 2016 04:43

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Atmavik » 30 Dec 2019 04:05

Security Scan - PINAKA Guided Rocket System

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSRWeh28fBg

looks like pinaka mk2 is a game-changer but as the expected cost has gone up because of guidance. still cheaper than smerch.

fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3270
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby fanne » 30 Dec 2019 06:20

ramana wrote:No they don't need to fire in thousands.

Just 4 shells destroyed a bridge across LOC. Please do read the Border thread.

And the Pakis are not bothering to rebuild the bridge.

The 4 shells represent 400 lb bomb using the Time on Target appdoach.


The guided shells are very useful against static target (bridges, bunkers...) and till the enemy does not employ countermeasures (not spelling those out).
In war, or even the hot/cold we are having now, you cannot target non-static targets with these. The planes/uav/sats may not be able to give timely intelligence. Without that precision shells have no use, you then need area weapon like dumb shells, in millions in a indo-pak war.
My point was that 600 or so is a low number, there are enough targets to need something like 10,000s shells. There is a scope for desi players to get in and manufacture. It will be very effective in mountains, where freedom of movement is less. Even ground intel can help from predefined positions.

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 491
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ashishvikas » 30 Dec 2019 16:38

@DRDO_India - @TataPower SED #ATAGS makes a key breakthrough - five round burst in 62 secs.

Watch the video.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 44546?s=09

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2882
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 30 Dec 2019 17:08

Finally our weapons being Euro style TFTA with all the auto-loading jazz.. Just need some HD videos for youtube wars..Mashallah.

Will be fascinating to know, the number of crew attached to a ATAGS, with such high level automation.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3311
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 Dec 2019 18:48

ashishvikas wrote:@DRDO_India - @TataPower SED #ATAGS makes a key breakthrough - five round burst in 62 secs.

Watch the video.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 44546?s=09

rohit vats had mentioned concerns about accuracy of ATAGS from Gen Shankar...i still believe we should order more of it rather than perfect a design..but i guess powers be know best

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2882
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 30 Dec 2019 19:12

There is a PGK project currently in the works for artillery shell. Funded through DRDO's Tech Dev fund.

ATAGS can be a cheaper substitute for SPH in the plains. We should try to extend the shell range to 100KM, similar to US program.

It would provide a wonderful weapon to pound in depth Pak weapon production facilities, airfields, ammo from our side.

srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4402
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srai » 31 Dec 2019 00:59

nam wrote:Finally our weapons being Euro style TFTA with all the auto-loading jazz.. Just need some HD videos for youtube wars..Mashallah.

Will be fascinating to know, the number of crew attached to a ATAGS, with such high level automation.


Crew = 7

Image

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 31 Dec 2019 01:02

ArjunPandit wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:@DRDO_India - @TataPower SED #ATAGS makes a key breakthrough - five round burst in 62 secs.

Watch the video.

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 44546?s=09

rohit vats had mentioned concerns about accuracy of ATAGS from Gen Shankar...i still believe we should order more of it rather than perfect a design..but i guess powers be know best



Accuracy?? He was railing about some weight issues. There are no accuracy issues.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2019 03:45

True concern was weight.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 31 Dec 2019 03:53

weight should not be an issue for all sectors. Small subset of segment may have a true weight penalty. For everywhere else - it should be order able.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2019 05:07

nam wrote:There is a PGK project currently in the works for artillery shell. Funded through DRDO's Tech Dev fund.

ATAGS can be a cheaper substitute for SPH in the plains. We should try to extend the shell range to 100KM, similar to US program.

It would provide a wonderful weapon to pound in depth Pak weapon production facilities, airfields, ammo from our side.


During recent Excalibur trials a PGK fuze was tested.
I think there are two versions 1)DRDO version and 2) Israeli Top Gun made by private sector. Hopefully DRDO version can be used on 120mm mortar shells. All that would increase effectiveness of artillery fires.

Prem Kumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2415
Joined: 31 Mar 2009 00:10

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 31 Dec 2019 10:12

What really will accelerate the desi-Excalibur project, IMO, is to open it up for competition from Indian companies including startups (design & make in India, not buy & assemble).

1) Throw open the competition and ask for proposals
2) Select the most promising ones & fund them
3) DRDO should be asked to share ToT of whatever is already developed/known to them
4) Provide testing facilities & other infra to the short-listed ones
5) The short-listed ones build prototypes, which are trialed
6) The best (top 2) gets selected and the order is split between them
7) Order quantity is shared up-front in Step 1, so that there is incentive to compete

We have done this before & seen success. Repeat what has been known to work. Relying only on DRDO (or) expecting a private company to invest without being assured of orders is not the optimal way to go.

We cannot do the above approach for complex systems like the LCA. But for projects like these, this approach might work. In fact, we should have taken this approach for UAVs also, rather than rely solely on ADA which is dragging its feet, while the Chinese are galloping ahead!

hnair
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3820
Joined: 03 May 2006 01:31
Location: Trivandrum

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby hnair » 31 Dec 2019 11:16

ramana, In that informative post of rohitvats about the interactions with the ex-DGA, the General did mention prominently about accuracy and consistency issues of ATAGS at this point of testing, and not just weight :(

He also says future growth is no longer in chamber or caliber. Maybe his assessment is that we are fast reaching limits of accurate gun-laying(accuracy), recoil management (consistency) and metallurgy (weight increase). Which means fast diminishing returns if we go only with gunside improvements, which increases weight and instead go with projectile side improvements

rohitvats wrote:From Twitter handle of Lt Gen Shankar, ex-Arty DG, who led the whole Dhanush effort; I had asked him about weight issue of ATAGS:

Too heavy. major issues involved. Accuracy and consistency suffers badly. Future Range increment from ammunition technologies, not from barrel lengths or increased chamber capacity any more. I welcome it as an indigenous effort only if weight comes down.

On being asked if Excalibur is the answer:

Not necessarily Excalibur. We need to go in for ramjet technology or something there.

On being asked about using ATAGS in plains/desert to mitigate weight issue:

Who said weight is not an issue in plains. One has to deploy off roads in x country and move in deserts.
------------------

I hope this clears some air on the subject.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2019 11:51

Glad you spent the time to look up what was said.
Good that you did. Off course you would do that....

manjgu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2213
Joined: 11 Aug 2006 10:33

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 31 Dec 2019 11:56

but i dont understand why this gyan of ex DGA was not considered by the developers of ATAGS... its only at the end of the development that everyone is wiser? i mean with the tech drawings( at the design stage) , the final weight is fairly accurately known. I am sure the ex DGA knows his stuff but the question is after so much time/effort/money is expended do we realise that improvements will come from increments in ammo tech !! beats me or is there is something we are missing? similar guns from the european stables also weighs the same !

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2019 12:33

About 20 years ago I saw a hypersonic shell with built in ram jet in a US lab study. It's still not achieved and its thrown around as a venue to explore.

Right now ATAGS fires 5 shells a minute. That means 500 lbs. And with Time on Target method all arrive at same time. That's like CAS with the medium gun battery.
A few months or a year back I saw a report that said its weight was high and could use some reduction. I thought that was Gen Shankar's viewsand had reacted erroneously. Hnair went and found what rohitvats posted which I did not read earlier.
Gun accuracy comes with mass or weight as recoil forces are absorbed. So asking for weight reduction after gun trials is typical field trials input.

CDS will decide if the gun can be inducted and a future version could weigh less. Same as 105mm IFG

The ATAGS needs induction like yesterday.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2019 12:33

I will ask him too.

ashishvikas
BRFite
Posts: 491
Joined: 17 Oct 2016 14:18

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ashishvikas » 31 Dec 2019 13:12

ATAGS was reported to had 6 rounds/30 sec feature, is that something different ?

ATAGS has a six-round "automated magazine" — another
global first — that fires a six-round burst in just 30 seconds.


https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 815_1.html

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1286
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Gyan » 31 Dec 2019 13:13

LT GEN PR Shankar for once is not anti indigenisation. He is of the view that we must RELY ON PINAKA rockets.

This is also the international trend. As the accuracy of MBRL goes up, cost comes down, its use will be more extensive & widespread.

Indian Army is the only army in the world with so much emphasis on heavy artillery

World is moving towards MBRLs & SRBMs

Our import lobby is obstructing MBRLs, Prahaar, Pralaay.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54023
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2019 13:27

I noted US is developing follow on to ATACMS with >500 km range.

Maybe heavy guns is due to recieving end in 1965. About 75% casualties were due to shelling.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 31 Dec 2019 15:59

What stage of development was the retd general involved?? When did he observe this? What makes his old observation correct today? It just went through trials and all parties seemed happy!

Even the wright issue was listed as “liked to” in the reports not must have! Please reread the reports pasted around the same conversation.

This is how rumors start..
Last edited by Cybaru on 31 Dec 2019 16:11, edited 1 time in total.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2594
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 31 Dec 2019 16:10

I know of a retd Air Marshal who once said LCA was overweight and would never fly!! Totally invalid observation as of today. We could have lent weight to it in 2000, but only if we wanted to wallow in our own pity and feel useless.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2882
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby nam » 31 Dec 2019 16:39

Indian Army is the only army in the world with so much emphasis on heavy artillery

World is moving towards MBRLs & SRBMs


If this is true, then I would say IA is more sensible than other world armies!

Artillery, tank round and bullets are what makes war economical. You cannot fight wars with only rockets and missiles.With all the money in the world, US Army wants a shell hitting 100km, something a rocket can easily do. Because it is cheaper and you can have lots of it.

MBRL now being guided is fundamentally correcting a wayward weapon, a terror weapon, rather than anything useful. A money wasting weapon.

You cannot call in MBRL strikes on a charging enemy , with it's 100kg warhead.

ArjunPandit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3311
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 31 Dec 2019 19:40

hnair wrote:ramana, In that informative post of rohitvats about the interactions with the ex-DGA, the General did mention prominently about accuracy and consistency issues of ATAGS at this point of testing, and not just weight :(
[/quote]

thanks for the help..with all my twitter ids blocked/suspended, I couldnt chek..too lazy to open another one now...i did remember the weight issue but at that time we discussed (as today) that weight will not be a problem everywhere, to which Rohit had a snappy retort...
when we will look back by end of the new decade, this would go as the most underrated decision of Modi govt ..wont find much attention..but would cause maximum damage...in war and scenarios like today. We already see heat being upped at LC/Borders,

there will come a time when this will be the norm to make pakis do things...

srin
BRFite
Posts: 1856
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby srin » 31 Dec 2019 20:38

ramana wrote:CDS will decide if the gun can be inducted and a future version could weigh less. Same as 105mm IFG



Since you mention the IFG: Any idea what'll happen to the IFG ? Will they be replaced by 155mm towed guns ?

Picklu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2074
Joined: 25 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Picklu » 31 Dec 2019 21:29

Lt Gen Shankar has lead not only Pinaka but Dhanush effort as well. For the next one decade, his comments would still be extremely up to date and valid as he was involved in the R&D side as well. However, he may have some bias towards 52 caliber Dhanush than 52 caliber 25 L chamber ATAGS


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Cain Marko, srin and 44 guests