Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

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Arun.prabhu
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Arun.prabhu » 19 Feb 2020 08:49

We'll keep our fingers crossed. But I'll go on record and say that buying Israeli artillery would be tantamount to Crossing the Rubicon for me and a lot of others. There were no domestic equal or superior weaponry before. There is now and like I said, there can be no excuse.

Srutayus wrote:Your criticisms are very valid, I agree with all the points you raise, and I am certainly not targeting you personally by any means. I do hope that this procurement exercise goes the Spike way and our needs are met wholly indigenously, and I hope for expeditious completion of our domestic development efforts.

However, this malaise lies in the institutional preferences for imports nurtured by a long history with state owned firms, as well as with the lack of military representation in the MoD, the bureaucratic maze in the MoD procurement process etc. All this is currently being addressed both with institutional reforms and with changing institutional attitudes, and our criticism should be on point. We start to abuse when we react emotionally by throwing around allegations of corruption etc. This is counterproductive. It is fear of these type of allegations that leads bureaucrats to not deviate from the script even if warranted by changed circumstances.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby abhik » 19 Feb 2020 08:51

If it is infact a lifafa article then the RM or official spokesperson should come out and deny it, also officially cancel it. Going by the track record (Ka-226, Russian frigates etc.), next time Nut&Yahoo visits we may see this signed as a "friendship" deal.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Arun.prabhu » 19 Feb 2020 08:55

We are one of the few countries that don't boycott Israeli goods or summarily vote against Israel. We maintain good relations with them and that, I think is friendship enough when Israel sells weapons to China just as willingly as they do to us.

abhik wrote:If it is infact a lifafa article then the RM or official spokesperson should come out and deny it, also officially cancel it. Going by the track record (Ka-226, Russian frigates etc.), next time Nut&Yahoo visits we may see this signed as a "friendship" deal.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 19 Feb 2020 09:00

abhik wrote:If it is infact a lifafa article then the RM or official spokesperson should come out and deny it, also officially cancel it. Going by the track record (Ka-226, Russian frigates etc.), next time Nut&Yahoo visits we may see this signed as a "friendship" deal.



The ka226 was a parallel acquisition program in addition to the LUH with clearly defined compitition.

This so-called purchase came out of nowhere in 2018. With no competition no news of this program being in place. No participation from any international vendors.

The MOD may respond if enough noise is made. But I will not count on it.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 19 Feb 2020 10:04

We seem to be the only major power that has internalized the belief that "buying arms buys leverage". It does - except that the leverage is in the opposite direction. There are several other economic & non-economic ways of nurturing friendship without compromising leverage.

Its become a trend even in BRF that when we see a lousy deal, we attribute it to wheels-within-wheels, buying leverage, returning the favor for N-sub etc.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2020 11:22

How about the requirement can't be filled by domestic production.
ATAGS is still in trials. Both suppliers were given basic mfg setup orders.Still long way to go.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 19 Feb 2020 11:30

Dhanush production is up and running for stop gap. No need to invest in ATHOS

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Indranil » 19 Feb 2020 11:30

Ramana ji,

How can you come to that conclusion without a single order being placed. I have no doubt in my mind that Bharat Forge and/or Tata SED can supply on or before schedule. Their track record says so.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Arun.prabhu » 19 Feb 2020 11:47

If the requirement can’t be met by the domestic MIC, one sees no objections to buying foreign. I would recommend that the armed forces point our R&D towards the capability gap so that we will have the capability when we need to replace those line items.

I would however object to the argument that the domestic production can’t fulfill the orders in a timely manner in this instance. If the armed forces want timely production, then the armed Forces should Place timely orders. Waiting until the weapon system is perfect and placing orders piecemeal doesn’t help anyone. I would have had more faith if the armed forces had done something Like this before: “Tejas is coming along nicely, but it could be better. Here you go with a firm order for 150/200 planes. Produce what you have and work on what we want in parallel. As you come up with a set of updates, we’ll do an upgrade program to bring up the entire fleet to that standard on a cost plus model or whatever.” Instead, we have orders for 40-odd planes with another order for 83 years in negotiation with another order for 100 to be negotiated years down the line depending on... it is that depending on that reduces confidence amongst vendors and increases risk. Why would anyone want to invest in a line when the orders are hanging in the air and the perceived risk is huge. And then having created the conditions for the delay, when one complains of delays... long term strategic independence requires short term compromises today. When we are willing to compromise on performance, quality, logistics and costs for foreign systems, doing the same for domestic MIC, when the long term rewards are so much more is not a unreasonable expectation.

ramana wrote:How about the requirement can't be filled by domestic production.
ATAGS is still in trials. Both suppliers were given basic mfg setup orders.Still long way to go.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby mody » 19 Feb 2020 14:17

ramana wrote:How about the requirement can't be filled by domestic production.
ATAGS is still in trials. Both suppliers were given basic mfg setup orders.Still long way to go.


Ramanaji, The Dhanish-45 is already in production. Dhanush-52 prototype and the truck mounted version of the same are both ready.
The Kalyani Bharat-52 gun has been ready for a long time and they have had it tested abroad, as the MoD did not allow for test firing on govt. owned test ranges.
The Sharang project is underway and the first guns will start getting inducted from April onwards. The existing Bofors B77s can also be upgraded to the Dhanush-45/52 standard in due course.
Absolutely no justification for buying arty guns from anywhere else.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Philip » 19 Feb 2020 14:45

L&T boss Mr.Naik in an interview has said that they have delivered 51 guns ahead of schedule, but the factory which the PM opened would have to close production because there was no money for follow on orders,spoken to the DM too about the same .HAL too complained last year about moolah owed to them.If we keep funding on track there is no reason why production should not suffer.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 19 Feb 2020 21:18

mody et al, Sharang and Dhanush will keep OFB busy working full time.
ATAGS despite all the good news is still in trails.
And Bharat Forge and Tata are still setting up the factory with the initial orders of 45 guns each.
And the best gun of these two will be chosen to be manufactured by both.
A while to go full cylinders

Meantime IA artillery requirement on 3000 guns is still languishing since 1986.
And the borders are heating up with Dokhlam and the LOC.
And had to make do with the old Bofors etc.
Just a couple of batteries worth of M777 ad the user trials battery of Dhanush could be pressed into service.

Hence the need to get some guns.
400 import and 1072 knock down assembly and indigenize.

Mind you 1500 guns are enough to keep the domestic production humming.

So am not worried.

As for L&T the K9 order of 90 guns was to equip the three strike corps.
And this was understood when factory was setup.

Hopefully the armored corps realizes the importance of adding these to the independent armorded brigades.

As part of IBG re-equipment profile more could be added.
Cant hold the IA HOSTAGE.


And rewarding allies sends good message to others.

One advice don't listen to the constant whiners on twitter.
Before NaMo there was no Make In India.
Indian business dikgajs were content with 15% profit year on year with zero risk.
Now they are hiring chatteratti to pretend they are somehow great mfg resources.

Now its being realized what are the limits and these are being filled.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Srutayus » 19 Feb 2020 21:50

ramana wrote:As for L&T the K9 order of 90 guns was to equip the three strike corps.
And this was understood when factory was setup.

I believe that the MoD may covert the 180 gun wheeled gun requirement (not the 800 odd truck mounted which is a separate requirement) into more orders for K9 when funds are freed up. But you are right that there was no requirement beyond the 100 on paper when the L&T plant was set up.
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 19 Feb 2020 23:16

ramana wrote:mody et al, Sharang and Dhanush will keep OFB busy working full time.
ATAGS despite all the good news is still in trails.
And Bharat Forge and Tata are still setting up the factory with the initial orders of 45 guns each.
And the best gun of these two will be chosen to be manufactured by both.
A while to go full cylinders

Meantime IA artillery requirement on 3000 guns is still languishing since 1986.
And the borders are heating up with Dokhlam and the LOC.
And had to make do with the old Bofors etc.
Just a couple of batteries worth of M777 ad the user trials battery of Dhanush could be pressed into service.

Hence the need to get some guns.
400 import and 1072 knock down assembly and indigenize.

Mind you 1500 guns are enough to keep the domestic production humming.

So am not worried.

As for L&T the K9 order of 90 guns was to equip the three strike corps.
And this was understood when factory was setup.

Hopefully the armored corps realizes the importance of adding these to the independent armorded brigades.

As part of IBG re-equipment profile more could be added.
Cant hold the IA HOSTAGE.


And rewarding allies sends good message to others.

One advice don't listen to the constant whiners on twitter.
Before NaMo there was no Make In India.
Indian business dikgajs were content with 15% profit year on year with zero risk.
Now they are hiring chatteratti to pretend they are somehow great mfg resources.

Now its being realized what are the limits and these are being filled.


Ramana ji, But even elbit will go either with Bharat Forge(KSSL) or GCF Jabalpur which are nodal agencies for ATAGS AND Dhanush respectively as per various rumors. The same manufacturing resources will be used for Athos production too. If they will fail with their own products, they will definitely fail(in terms of delay) with israeli product due to integration issues.

The second point of contention is that CDS has already indicated that purchases will be staggered. So I do not see much difference between indian and foreign products in terms of procurement even if Indian product is somewhat late to mature.

Yes there is only one scenario where Athos purchase is justified. That is only as emergency measure if Bharat decides to strike Pakistan sometime during 2021-2022. But then strike should be made. In this scenario even the best manufacturer around the world will be hard pressed to produce more than 200-250 guns during let us say 1 year. You also have to account for training and integration issues in various arty regiments. So in any case I do not see the need to procure 1500 Athos guns. This will be totally unjustifiable.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 19 Feb 2020 23:36

I have one more gripe. So much foreign equipment has been imported during last 3-4 decades. However much of this equipment will be retired without seeing adequate action. Definitely not in any offensive action initiated by India. For that matter no offensive action has been initiated by India at all. Kargil, Balakot were all defensive reactionary actions. Equipment like T-90/T-72, Sukhoi 30 mki, Kilo submarines seen no action. These were all billion dollar acquisitions in todays terms. Just touting deterrence value will not cut it anymore. People will want results i.e something tangible. For eg. if scorpenes are being bought, then what damage it does to Pakistani Navy assets in near to medium term. How much pakistan oriented merchant vessel tonnage is sunk by these subs. If we are importing foreign tanks at cost of billions, then where is the return on investment in terms of territory captured. Just buying foreign equipment at huge cost wihout ever using it. Plain foolish and stupid.

So again if Athos is needed as emergency purchase, then govt and military of the day need to ensure that this emergency is indeed effected and I do not mean just LOC. For LOC ops we have more than enough advantage.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby sudeepj » 20 Feb 2020 00:07

Buying the Athos gun when we have Dhanush, K9, Sharang in production and the ATAGs under test is almost criminal. Lately, all sorts of questionable decisions have been pushed. E.g. the IA operating rifles of three different calibers 7.62x51, 7.62x39 and 5.56x45. Its just weird.. Athos procurement will be another such.

Ok.. read the article:

Despite the recent success of indigenously made artillery guns, the process of acquiring some 1,580 pieces from a foreign supplier is progressing and is now at the stage of cost negotiation.

According to sources, so far there is no indication to have locally made guns to fill in the numbers for which negotiation is on. “Cost negotiation is on get 400 pieces from Elbit of Israel in a ready-to-use condition and the remaining 1,180 will be assembled here in India by the foreign supplier in a partnership with Indian partner Bharat Forge,” the source said.


Yes, we should negotiate costs and production agreements to figure out what is possible and bhav kya chal raha hai. :-) If nothing, this will push OFB to produce cheaply otherwise we have seen stuff like HAL quoting 59,000 crores Rafale like price for 83Mk1As.

This is actually contract negotiation 101. Talk to one vendor, use that guys price to beat down the other chap. If nothing, it makes the other chap think twice about overquoting and taking it easy.

[Contract negotiation 102 is when that one vendor knows that you dont intend to buy from him and only using him to get a negotiation quote and quotes a bullshit price to screw up your real deal.. it happens. :-D ]

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby kit » 20 Feb 2020 00:37

kit wrote:https://www.israeldefense.co.il/en/node/38220

Indian media outlets report that Elbit Systems has won a tender to deliver its ATHOS (Autonomous Towed Howitzer Ordnance System) 2052 to the Indian Army, in a deal estimated at over $1 Billion. However, Elbit has not yet notified the Tel Aviv Stock Exchange on such a deal.

“At the end of several rounds of tendering and trials since the beginning of the last decade, the Israeli company Elbit Systems has won the Indian Army’s 155 mm/52 caliber towed artillery gun competition, of which the import content alone is valued at over $1 Billion,” according to Army Recognition.

Elbit’s Indian partner for the tender is Bharat Forge. “The Elbit-Bharat Forge bid for the ATHOS 2052 howitzer was found significantly lower than that of French Nexter, which offered the Trajan gun jointly with its Indian partner Larsen & Toubro”, Indian Defense News reports.


report dated 4/2019


I think we should take this report with a pinch of salt !.. it was true at that time, but some water has flowed under the bridge since then. Are there any reports that this has been a done deal ?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 20 Feb 2020 06:05

darshhan wrote:Start a twitter/social media campaign against athos procurement. Tag Namo too. Send him the direct feedback on twitter, email etc. Tag honorable RM too.

This purchase should be opposed on all costs. Indigenous purchases should be given priority even if foreign product is L1.


This possible procurement of ATHOS stinks of a scandal. And this one time, I would truly not mind it if RaGa and his cohort raised all sorts of issues in Parliament and everywhere else to stop this from going into an actual contract. This is a scam, where Rafale wasn't.

The mind boggles at the level of chicanery going on if world class home grown products like the ATAGS, Dhanush get piecemeal orders like 150 units (not yet placed) or 114 units while some imported 155/52 gun gets orders numbering in the several hundreds if not thousands. Not to mention the BF artillery products that are going for trials to Saudi Arabia whereas our own country's army prefers to look at imports.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Kartik » 20 Feb 2020 06:08

Pratyush wrote:I think that we are getting our chaddis in a bunch for no reason. If you pay attention to Elbit and it's reporting in the Israeli stock exchanges. They have not reported about this to the stock exchanges. Which I believe to be a regulatory requirement for the company.

Also this is the second time in 3 years we have heard about the impending purchase. But both times with different Indian partners.

Thirdly, IIRC, when DRDO convinced the MOD to wait for ATAGS. The tenders for procurement of towed guns was scrapped. With interim requirement to be met by DHANUSH 45 and subsequent 52 cal versions produced by OFB.

We have seen a mounted 52 cal piece from OFB in 8*8 format as well which is easily transferable to the towed guns.

All the above leads me to conclude that this is a lifafa in the absence of a signed contract.


It was never mentioned that there is a signed contract. What was said is that the negotiations are now progressing to cost negotiations, which is one step before the last.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby sum » 20 Feb 2020 08:33

^^ Most probably, some concerned soul in MoD leaked it to the papers to help raise a hue and cry and stop this weird negotiation phase in its tracks

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 20 Feb 2020 09:09

ramana wrote:
Meantime IA artillery requirement on 3000 guns is still languishing since 1986.
And the borders are heating up with Dokhlam and the LOC.
And had to make do with the old Bofors etc.
Just a couple of batteries worth of M777 ad the user trials battery of Dhanush could be pressed into service.

Hence the need to get some guns.
400 import and 1072 knock down assembly and indigenize.

Mind you 1500 guns are enough to keep the domestic production humming.

So am not worried.
.


Ramana ji, of the 3000 guns, 1600 were towed, 800 mounted and the rest mix of ultra light and tracked. A 1600 towed gun deal will kill ATAGS.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby darshhan » 20 Feb 2020 11:38

Kartik wrote:
darshhan wrote:Start a twitter/social media campaign against athos procurement. Tag Namo too. Send him the direct feedback on twitter, email etc. Tag honorable RM too.

This purchase should be opposed on all costs. Indigenous purchases should be given priority even if foreign product is L1.


This possible procurement of ATHOS stinks of a scandal. And this one time, I would truly not mind it if RaGa and his cohort raised all sorts of issues in Parliament and everywhere else to stop this from going into an actual contract. This is a scam, where Rafale wasn't.

The mind boggles at the level of chicanery going on if world class home grown products like the ATAGS, Dhanush get piecemeal orders like 150 units (not yet placed) or 114 units while some imported 155/52 gun gets orders numbering in the several hundreds if not thousands. Not to mention the BF artillery products that are going for trials to Saudi Arabia whereas our own country's army prefers to look at imports.


This is where the lack of opposition is actually hurting India.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Feb 2020 12:04

The failure of Rafale Saga by opposition means this will not be taken up by opposition

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Thakur_B » 20 Feb 2020 12:42

ArjunPandit wrote:The failure of Rafale Saga by opposition means this will not be taken up by opposition


If Bofors got RaGa senior, the irony of ATHOS allegations will sync very well with sheeple.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 20 Feb 2020 13:30

If Athos deal goes through the Govt will be in trouble.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby JTull » 20 Feb 2020 15:39

Aditya_V wrote:If Athos deal goes through the Govt will be in trouble.


This is line in the sand moment. It'll be absolute opposite of national interests being paramount. They'll surely lose my vote!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Feb 2020 16:01

JTull wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:If Athos deal goes through the Govt will be in trouble.


This is line in the sand moment. It'll be absolute opposite of national interests being paramount. They'll surely lose my vote!

+1

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 20 Feb 2020 16:10

Guys, please chill.

I am no longer active on twitter. But the RM can be contacted on twitter and asked if the news is correct.

No?

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2020 21:14

Common guys.
Yes the ATAGS is clearing trials. But is in no where near quantity production.
If they wait it will be 2025 before IA starts seeing the guns in quantity.
besides the IA requirement is over 3000 guns. This is half the order.
So plenty for the domestic production.

Weighing all the pros and cons its the best decision.

NaMo takes balanced decision.

K9 does not factor in here.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2020 21:14

And among forum members I have followed Artillery the most.
And I support this decision.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Pratyush » 20 Feb 2020 21:54

ramana wrote:Common guys.
Yes the ATAGS is clearing trials. But is in no where near quantity production.
If they wait it will be 2025 before IA starts seeing the guns in quantity.
besides the IA requirement is over 3000 guns. This is half the order.
So plenty for the domestic production.

Weighing all the pros and cons its the best decision.

NaMo takes balanced decision.

K9 does not factor in here.



I am not sure if agree with your assessment of the situation. As the OFB can meet this need with 52 cal fh77 as well.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 20 Feb 2020 23:32

Sure. OFB can meet only if its restructured.
Folks it a balanced decision.
The objective is to get guns to the IA in timely manner.
The comparable to ATHOS is the Nexeter while Indian designed gun is ATAGS.
Nexeter lost and that tells you something.
ATAGS is a while to go with production run as
First both Bharat Forge and Tatas have to make the 45 gun production run and the winner will be given the full order in the ratio of 2:1.
ATHOS does not impact either Sarang upgrade(potential 1000) or Dhanush (114 potential 414).

K9 by L&T was for the 100 guns to arm the three strike corps.
More has to be based on IA decision to arm the Armoured Brigades.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby ArjunPandit » 20 Feb 2020 23:36

whats the hurry to get the guns..IA has lived without them for decades no..if you know what i mean... ;-)

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby RKumar » 21 Feb 2020 02:01

Respectfully, I don’t agree with Ramana sir with your analysis. If we import any new system, we will be maintaining it for around 30 years. Do we want to be in this situation, when multiple solutions are going to be delivered in next 2-3 years. In stead of importing, we could put more focus on one gun and produce 18 guns for testing in parallel then doing one tick at a time. If there is a will, there are ways. We need a will to do the right thing!!

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby chandrabhan » 21 Feb 2020 07:45

I agree with the points mentioned, however I come back to the question that none knows answer to. Are we planning for a war in 24 months? If not, the upgunning 130 mm (additional 300) , Dhanush (measly 114 guns), ULH (M777) 144 guns are far more in number than 155mm Howitzers we had available in Kargil. Am not convinced about this argument of ATHOS. We can and must give a larger firm order for Dhanush (400+), production rate can be improved from 5 a month to 10/month.

yes 1500 gun order to local manufacturers (ATAGS or Dhanush or OFB's Truck mounted 155/52) may look like large number but looking at history, IA folks will double down on ATHOS as ultimate unifying solution like they protect the T90 .. pushing Arjun aside.

I am equally shocked at Pinaka almost being edged out from more orders. It was and remains a cheap alternative to Short range missiles with it's longer range rocket. We already have more tubes available today than we had at kargil.


ramana wrote:Common guys.
Yes the ATAGS is clearing trials. But is in no where near quantity production.
If they wait it will be 2025 before IA starts seeing the guns in quantity.
besides the IA requirement is over 3000 guns. This is half the order.
So plenty for the domestic production.

Weighing all the pros and cons its the best decision.

NaMo takes balanced decision.

K9 does not factor in here.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby hnair » 21 Feb 2020 10:53

Got to wait till clarifications come out, but it might not exactly be a new deal for all we know.

The Bharat Forge version of ATAGS has some resemblance to the visible portions of ATHOS' major subsystems. Maybe it integrates a lot of things that would de-risk Bharat Forge's lack of expertise in GC, APU, ammo crane, auto-loader etc and helps it focus on forging, recoil management, electronics integration etc

Bharat Forge ATAGS Pic
Image

Israeli ATHOS
Image

Smaller calibre ATHOS
Image


From 2013, from Bharat Forge site:

The JVC will bring together Elbit Systems’ cutting edge technology and system integration capabilities and Bharat Forge’s advanced capabilities in the areas of design, engineering, manufacturing, testing and validation.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby agupta » 21 Feb 2020 11:44

hnair wrote:Got to wait till clarifications come out, but it might not exactly be a new deal for all we know.

The Bharat Forge version of ATAGS has some resemblance to the visible portions of ATHOS' major subsystems. Maybe it integrates a lot of things that would de-risk Bharat Forge's lack of expertise in GC, APU, ammo crane, auto-loader etc and helps it focus on forging, recoil management, electronics integration etc



That is an astute observation, sir. If indeed there is sub-system and component commonality, ATHOS production line IS the prep work for the future ATAGS line while BF works out the Production techniques using the first LSP ATAGS order

Hmm.. this sounds... like... a completely normal way to work for a company that wants to deliver Made-in-india at lower unit costs than imports... unlike this who want to wave the tiranga, and then churn out "fully indigenous" articles at multiples of the imported cost.

The risk that people might be reacting to is that the sum of 3000 has not changed in the 10+ years since it was put. I Hope it has - that that target is even larger.

tsarkar
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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 21 Feb 2020 13:02

hnair wrote:The Bharat Forge version of ATAGS has some resemblance to the visible portions of ATHOS' major subsystems.


No. Both have different development agencies and teams. I seriously wish we get over the tendency of "A looks like B, so B technologies must have been used". Judging by looks is horribly erroneous.

ATAGS has a lot of teething troubles. However Dhanush 45 has been proven excellently. A better option would have been the Dhanush 52.

ATAGS started due to DRDO jealously with OFB Dhanush success and hence its working with Tata & Bharat Forge with minimum involvement of OFB.

However OFB is India's best center of excellence in artillery as proven by the Sharang & Dhanush 45

The DRDO team could have focused on developing tracked Dhanush 52 on Arjun chassis and developing a ULW option.

In my opinion, we should order Dhanush 45 in large numbers, develop Dhanush 52 and thereafter its variants.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby Cybaru » 21 Feb 2020 13:22

tsarkar wrote:ATAGS started due to DRDO jealously with OFB Dhanush success and hence its working with Tata & Bharat Forge with minimum involvement of OFB.

However OFB is India's best center of excellence in artillery as proven by the Sharang & Dhanush 45

The DRDO team could have focused on developing tracked Dhanush 52 on Arjun chassis and developing a ULW option.

In my opinion, we should order Dhanush 45 in large numbers, develop Dhanush 52 and thereafter its variants.


Come on, if they work with the private industry then they are wrong, if they work with OFB - it is rojgar yojna and nothing will come off it. Can't have it both ways...

All programs have teething troubles... No one escapes it... It will get fixed if there are real issues.

The cool thing about ATAGS is it future-proofed itself with a bigger chamber. It will end up being the gun of choice for the army. Hopefully the Israeli news is a bogus plant.

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Re: Artillery Corps: News & Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 21 Feb 2020 13:43

Cybaru wrote:The cool thing about ATAGS is it future-proofed itself with a bigger chamber.


The Bofors 52 had a 25 liters chamber volume since atleast 15 years ago. So did many others.

https://www.armyrecognition.com/united_ ... es_uk.html

The longer barrel and larger chamber volume result in extended firing range of more than 40 km and enable firing of the next generation smart ammunition.


The Dhanush is a tested and optimized design vis-a-vis ATAGS and Dhanush should be the building block for future evolutions.


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