Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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Yagnasri
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Yagnasri » 18 Mar 2020 21:04

Both Mk1 and Mk1A do not have on board oxign generator at present. Right?

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 18 Mar 2020 23:44

nam wrote:
nachiket wrote:Why would you waste the space inside the fuselage and wings?

Well you don't. Inside of having fuel tanks, you place lrus. Specially in the fuselage.

There might be space in wings, where you cannot place kit. Those can be filled with fuel. However even in case of wings, it would be more useful to have less fuel, to able to carry more stores.

Carrying fuel inside the wings and fuselage is the best way to carry fuel without incurring a significant drag penalty. I don't see why one would not want to maximize that potential as far as possible. Think of it this way, if your wings are carrying more fuel inside them, you may be able to keep all HP's free for combat stores, at least for some missions.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 19 Mar 2020 00:28

Yagnasri wrote:Both Mk1 and Mk1A do not have on board oxign generator at present. Right?


Correct. OBOGS will only come with the MWF. 10 hours worth of LOX in cylinders as of now. Primary issue with LOX cylinders being logistics apparently.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 19 Mar 2020 00:35

Gyan wrote:Indranil, I am just trying to understand the logic behind LCA design and why is it being carried over into MK2. Evidently same wing design even though considered for MCA in 1990s is not being carried over into AMCA. While China has used Canard Delta for its Stealth fighter.

F-16XL was supposed to have poor low altitude performance, and in any case its wing is somewhat different from LCA.

Inspite of being way better in this area, you just raised 3 questions in your last post without giving any input.

Why does LCA MKI (supposedly) have shorter range than Mirage 2000, inspite of having better fuel fraction?


You are over thinking this. MWF or MK2 is not a clean sheet design. New wing design would have taken atleast a decade more for dev. It doesn't matter what wing LCA has. It would have been used as it is in MK2/ MWF.

Aircraft performance is not per se function of wing shape. Its function of TWR and W/S. And there is no right or wrong way of achieving target combination of TWR and W/S.

AMCA is a clean sheet design with significantly different design goals.

The logic behind LCA wing is simple. It fits the given constraints the best. Had there been no size restriction we might have seen other shape giving optimal solution. I think to some extent it has also to do with the fact that DA was involved in early design efforts quite closely. And their love for Delta wing is well known.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 19 Mar 2020 00:42

I feel designing CFT for a clean sheet design is akin to designing a 3-wheeler with and additional wheel when what you really wanted was a 4-wheeler always.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 19 Mar 2020 00:49

Kartik wrote:
Yagnasri wrote:Both Mk1 and Mk1A do not have on board oxign generator at present. Right?


Correct. OBOGS will only come with the MWF. 10 hours worth of LOX in cylinders as of now. Primary issue with LOX cylinders being logistics apparently.

OBOGS, once flight qualified, will be retrofitted back to Mk1 and Mk1A. Same with the dual pylons. Dual pylons and SPJ pod will be retrofitted to Mk1 as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Yagnasri » 19 Mar 2020 04:56

Thanks Guru Devs

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Gyan » 19 Mar 2020 17:09

nachiket wrote:
nam wrote:Well you don't. Inside of having fuel tanks, you place lrus. Specially in the fuselage.

There might be space in wings, where you cannot place kit. Those can be filled with fuel. However even in case of wings, it would be more useful to have less fuel, to able to carry more stores.

Carrying fuel inside the wings and fuselage is the best way to carry fuel without incurring a significant drag penalty. I don't see why one would not want to maximize that potential as far as possible. Think of it this way, if your wings are carrying more fuel inside them, you may be able to keep all HP's free for combat stores, at least for some missions.


Not necessarily. Compare Su-27 & F-16 Design considerations on this issue

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 22 Mar 2020 00:34

Article from Euresian Times
Tejas Mark II To Replace Mirage 2000s With Capability To Deep-Strike Into Enemy Territory? | EurAsian Times: Latest Asian, Middle-East, EurAsian, Indian News

The aircraft will be designed to have network-centric warfare capacity and will be equipped with artificial intelligence-based “optimally manned” cockpit.

The cockpit will be designed such that the ground control would be able to take over the controls of the aircraft in case the pilot becomes unconscious, after being alerted by a sensor in the helmet of the pilot.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 22 Mar 2020 01:57

Gyan wrote:
nachiket wrote:Carrying fuel inside the wings and fuselage is the best way to carry fuel without incurring a significant drag penalty. I don't see why one would not want to maximize that potential as far as possible. Think of it this way, if your wings are carrying more fuel inside them, you may be able to keep all HP's free for combat stores, at least for some missions.


Not necessarily. Compare Su-27 & F-16 Design considerations on this issue


Those are different aircraft designed to different requirements. Lockheed had the opportunity to propose a new F-16 based designed for different requirements (more range, and more payload) and on both (F-16 XL and F-16 U) occasions they addressed the internal fuel. You build an aircraft to the requirements. The F-16 came out of the Light Weight Fighter program. The Su-27 did not.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 22 Mar 2020 02:30

basant wrote:Article from Euresian Times
Tejas Mark II To Replace Mirage 2000s With Capability To Deep-Strike Into Enemy Territory? | EurAsian Times: Latest Asian, Middle-East, EurAsian, Indian News

The aircraft will be designed to have network-centric warfare capacity and will be equipped with artificial intelligence-based “optimally manned” cockpit.

The cockpit will be designed such that the ground control would be able to take over the controls of the aircraft in case the pilot becomes unconscious, after being alerted by a sensor in the helmet of the pilot.


So its literally an unmanned aircraft as well ? , so then why not spinoff a UCAV version as a wingman for high risk assault breaker ?

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JayS » 22 Mar 2020 02:32

Gyan wrote:
nachiket wrote:Carrying fuel inside the wings and fuselage is the best way to carry fuel without incurring a significant drag penalty. I don't see why one would not want to maximize that potential as far as possible. Think of it this way, if your wings are carrying more fuel inside them, you may be able to keep all HP's free for combat stores, at least for some missions.


Not necessarily. Compare Su-27 & F-16 Design considerations on this issue

brar_w beat me to it. You draw wrong comparisons, you are bound to get wrong conclusions.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 22 Mar 2020 22:03

kit wrote:
basant wrote:Article from Euresian Times


So its literally an unmanned aircraft as well ? , so then why not spinoff a UCAV version as a wingman for high risk assault breaker ?


at least IDRW spun off an article on it :shock:

http://idrw.org/india-to-experiment-with-ai-based-unmanned-lca-tejas-concept/#more-223489

info taken out of musharaff " Information provided to idrw.org, suggests that they will be two phases of the program if approved by the Government. In the first Phase, network-enabled Unmanned LCA-Tejas will be developed so that it can act as a force multiplier to the manned aircraft and be used as a wing man in dangerous missions with inputs from ground controller and the crew of the manned aircraft. The second phase is more AI-Driven where inputs from the Human crew will be minimal and can be used" :mrgreen: :rotfl:

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 23 Mar 2020 01:03

kit wrote:
kit wrote:
So its literally an unmanned aircraft as well ? , so then why not spinoff a UCAV version as a wingman for high risk assault breaker ?


at least IDRW spun off an article on it :shock:

http://idrw.org/india-to-experiment-with-ai-based-unmanned-lca-tejas-concept/#more-223489

info taken out of musharaff " Information provided to idrw.org, suggests that they will be two phases of the program if approved by the Government. In the first Phase, network-enabled Unmanned LCA-Tejas will be developed so that it can act as a force multiplier to the manned aircraft and be used as a wing man in dangerous missions with inputs from ground controller and the crew of the manned aircraft. The second phase is more AI-Driven where inputs from the Human crew will be minimal and can be used" :mrgreen: :rotfl:

It did look a bit silly when it said that cockpit will be modified to cater unconscious pilot! :rotfl:

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 23 Mar 2020 11:14

That is actually not a joke. Even Mk1 has a few auto recovery modes for speed, altitude, etc. In MWF, they are going to augment it further with autopilot and waypoint navigation. In the case that the plane senses an incapacitated pilot, it will take over control, contact the controller and try to get back home.

Many things are sold in the name of artificial intelligence these days. I don't know how much artificial intelligence is required in attaining this. It is pretty much possible with contemporary technology. LCA already has autopilot, and waypoint navigation capabilities. I think landing is where the aircraft would require controller input. It would also require the controller for traffic avoidance.

Loyal wingman and autonomous fighter etc. are much further away. Why would I design my wingman from MWF? What role is the wingman supposed to complete. If it is strike, then one should design an UCAV towards that. It can be significantly stealthier, smaller and lighter.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 23 Mar 2020 14:26

Apologies IR, no offense meant. I found it funny that the article talked of changing cockpit for unconscious pilot. IIRC, close to autonomous landing was present even in Mig-25. ADA/HAL can certainly do it as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby neerajb » 23 Mar 2020 16:11

Artificial intelligence is like trying to guess/predict vs exact measurement (with sensors and a program). Traditionally, humans code software for all possible scenarios that one could encounter for a specified task like, say, auto landing/takeoff which is complex, testing intensive and error prone.

A human also files an aircraft using muscle memory or natural intelligence using neural networks (in the brain) trained with repeated trials and errors (flying training). A pilot doesn't calculate (literally) the thrust needed to maintain the glide slope but he/she knows how to consistently manipulate the thrust lever to get the desired result.

Artificial intelligence tries to emulate this using neural networks which guess/predict unlike exact calculation (using sensors and software) like in an autopilot.

Airbus recently tested auto take off using AI.

https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... keoff.html

Cheers....

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JTull » 23 Mar 2020 22:24

neural nets are just one technique of AI.

Machine learning is a better term for what is being sold around the world as AI. Most of it is just bayesian statistics.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 23 Mar 2020 22:35

As early as 2017, work was happening on auto-landing based on navigational aids and AI based vision. They must have progressed a lot from there. Flying from point A to point B over a list of waypoints is routinely done by all airliners from 80s. Tejas can definitely do that. Approach and landing is the only problem that needs work.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby JTull » 23 Mar 2020 22:46

We haven't even made the Tapas go beyond PV stage yet.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 23 Mar 2020 22:47

Dileep wrote:As early as 2017, work was happening on auto-landing based on navigational aids and AI based vision. They must have progressed a lot from there. Flying from point A to point B over a list of waypoints is routinely done by all airliners from 80s. Tejas can definitely do that. Approach and landing is the only problem that needs work.

Is this autoland capability being talked about without the use of ILS? Airliners do have autoland capability where the autopilot performs all functions including flying the aircraft to touchdown point, flaring before touchdown and deployment of spoilers etc. but it needs Cat III+ ILS equipment on both the aircraft and the runway.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 23 Mar 2020 23:31

JTull wrote:We haven't even made the Tapas go beyond PV stage yet.

Rustom 2 has done it several years ago! :D

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 24 Mar 2020 03:08

Dileep wrote:As early as 2017, work was happening on auto-landing based on navigational aids and AI based vision. They must have progressed a lot from there. Flying from point A to point B over a list of waypoints is routinely done by all airliners from 80s. Tejas can definitely do that. Approach and landing is the only problem that needs work.


If i remember right the auto take off and landing software was tried and tested on UCAVs sometime back , actually years i think

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby neerajb » 24 Mar 2020 12:19

The traditional autoland in commercial airlines is ILS only and this capability is there since long, nothing new there. So I believe Dileep is referring to AI computer vision guiding the plane with ILS aiding it or the other way round. Again like a human pilot monitoring the ILS landing, ready to take over in case the landing is not going as desired.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 24 Mar 2020 15:04

The autoland being talked of is NOT ILS based. I would speculate that it uses Inertial and GPS navigation to 'sight' the runway, and AI Vision to make corrections in final approach and landing. They were talking about "landing" on a "virtual runway", defined up in the air at a safe altitude as a means of trials / technology verification. This of course will not have AI Vision. Just navigation onlee. This conversation happened in 2017 close to AI-17

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby deejay » 24 Mar 2020 16:57

basant wrote:
kit wrote:
at least IDRW spun off an article on it :shock:

http://idrw.org/india-to-experiment-with-ai-based-unmanned-lca-tejas-concept/#more-223489

info taken out of musharaff " Information provided to idrw.org, suggests that they will be two phases of the program if approved by the Government. In the first Phase, network-enabled Unmanned LCA-Tejas will be developed so that it can act as a force multiplier to the manned aircraft and be used as a wing man in dangerous missions with inputs from ground controller and the crew of the manned aircraft. The second phase is more AI-Driven where inputs from the Human crew will be minimal and can be used" :mrgreen: :rotfl:

It did look a bit silly when it said that cockpit will be modified to cater unconscious pilot! :rotfl:


Hey I lost a friend to Hypoxia leading to unconciousness due O2 system failure in a Mig 29. These things happen.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby basant » 24 Mar 2020 20:16

deejay wrote:
basant wrote:It did look a bit silly when it said that cockpit will be modified to cater unconscious pilot! :rotfl:


Hey I lost a friend to Hypoxia leading to unconciousness due O2 system failure in a Mig 29. These things happen.

:( Could never have imagined. RIP to the pilot.

I know that commercial planes descend to 10,000ft under such conditions. But I can imagine that would not be an option in the battle field.

Aerial refueling seems pretty dangerous under normal circumstances. Sometime in future, I hope autonomous aerial refueling will be implemented for Tejas.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rahul M » 26 Mar 2020 21:24

Harsh Vardhan Thakur
@hvtiaf
·
21h
414 would be used on AMCA. AL-31FP of Su-30MKI is manufactured in HAL & has 125kN thrust. But bigger dia.

Image-i-Nation
@2nd_whiskeyjack
Replying to
@hvtiaf
Sir, given the substantial number of GE F404/414 engines we are going to use in the future, I am surprised we dont have any local manufacturing plans for that engine. Did we ever try to get a license to make those engines in India ?

Harsh Vardhan Thakur
@hvtiaf
414 production is under discussion. Not 404.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1243197393497133056

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Haridas » 29 Mar 2020 11:45

brar_w wrote:Those are different aircraft designed to different requirements. Lockheed had the opportunity to propose a new F-16 based designed for different requirements (more range, and more payload) and on both (F-16 XL and F-16 U) occasions they addressed the internal fuel. You build an aircraft to the requirements. The F-16 came out of the Light Weight Fighter program. The Su-27 did not.

Monterey (california) has a road named "Light Weight Fighter" near US Naval PG school, to honour the proponents of LWF, the folks who pushed for efficient kinetic energy preservation after initial dog fight fighter manuver (IOW sustained turn rate) to fight the performance of Mig21/19 that kicked Yankee AF butts in Viatnam.

Later version F16 has morphed to deal with new requirements

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby tsarkar » 30 Mar 2020 17:33

There is a whole lot of difference between an aircraft flying back home on autopilot on lack of pilot response and landing and a combat capable autonomous UCAV.

The former can be achieved with current technology without AI and is actually a good feature to have incase of issues like Hypoxia, GLOC or cockpit bird strike.

Just like missiles are fed waypoints via GPS/INS, a Ground Controller can feed waypoints to the aircraft autopilot for a safe return.

The flight characteristics would be basic in this scenario and not at the level of a combat capable autonomous UCAV.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby tsarkar » 30 Mar 2020 17:49

nachiket wrote:LCA Mk1 was never supposed to match M2k performance! It was supposed to be a replacement for the Mig-21, including fitting into the existing Mig-21 aircraft shelters on our bases. Hence it is smaller, lighter and has a smaller and less powerful engine than the M2k. How and why would it match M2k performance? BTW, performance here means payload and range. It might match/exceed M2k on other parameters. Its avionics are definitely better than the original M2k and match what is on the current upgraded Mirage-2000I. As for kinematic performance, we do not know how the two compare but I suspect they are close.

Aircraft are designed to requirements. LCA Mk1 requirements were NOT the same as the requirements laid out when the M2k was designed by the French or even when it was acquired by the IAF. M2k was considered a "Medium" category aircraft by the IAF as late as early 2000's when they wanted to buy 126 more of them.


The LCA was small and light because it was designed around the capabilities of GTX-35 Kaveri. Absolutely no other reason.

And the Kaveri was the best we could conceptualize and develop at that point of time.

However remembering the Marut example and using the Ronald Reagan Rajiv Gandhi bonhomie, compatibility with GE F-404 was maintained. That saved Tejas from going the Marut way.

When a bigger engine like F-414 is available, a medium weight fighter can be developed. Infact 3 aircrafts are under development around the F-414.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby srin » 30 Mar 2020 18:30

Rahul M wrote:Harsh Vardhan Thakur
@hvtiaf
·
21h
414 would be used on AMCA. AL-31FP of Su-30MKI is manufactured in HAL & has 125kN thrust. But bigger dia.

Image-i-Nation
@2nd_whiskeyjack
Replying to
@hvtiaf
Sir, given the substantial number of GE F404/414 engines we are going to use in the future, I am surprised we dont have any local manufacturing plans for that engine. Did we ever try to get a license to make those engines in India ?

Harsh Vardhan Thakur
@hvtiaf
414 production is under discussion. Not 404.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1243197393497133056



I'm surprised that the 414 production is still under discussion. Here's what the GE website says (press release when 414 was selected):
John Flannery, President & CEO, GE India said, "The LCA selection is a big step forward for GE and demonstrates our strong commitment to India. GE Aviation will supply the initial batch of F414-GE-INS6 engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology arrangement."

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 30 Mar 2020 19:36

That would have been part of the 99 engine contract that GE was selected for. I don't think that contract has been signed yet.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 01 Apr 2020 06:00

tsarkar wrote:The LCA was small and light because it was designed around the capabilities of GTX-35 Kaveri. Absolutely no other reason.

And the Kaveri was the best we could conceptualize and develop at that point of time.

It was most definitely not that simple. ADA was created in 1984 and the ASQR for the LCA was finalized by IAF in 1985. Kaveri development began later. Kaveri was designed for the LCA not the other way around. LCA requirement came out of IAF's long term re-equipment plan of 1981. They were looking for a 1-to-1 replacement for the Mig-21's. I do now have the source now but I remember reading long time ago about the necessity of the replacement to be able to fit into the Mig-21 sized shelters at our forward air bases. Other considerations included cost. In the 80's we could not have imagined replacing the hundreds of Mig-21's flying with a larger aircraft which would be more expensive to both buy and operate, even though that eventually happened to a large extent in the 2000's with the Su-30.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 01 Apr 2020 07:44

India of the 80s and 90s was more of a wimp when it came to thinking or dreaming forward(except few visionary folks like Dr.APJ). Nachiket garu I remember reading the same in a newspaper in early 90s

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 01 Apr 2020 07:54

suryag wrote:India of the 80s and 90s was more of a wimp when it came to thinking or dreaming forward(except few visionary folks like Dr.APJ). Nachiket garu I remember reading the same in a newspaper in early 90s

Has that changed?
MMRCA
Apaches
HS 748
Rifles
etc etc

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 01 Apr 2020 08:06

suryag wrote:India of the 80s and 90s was more of a wimp when it came to thinking or dreaming forward(except few visionary folks like Dr.APJ). Nachiket garu I remember reading the same in a newspaper in early 90s

Less about being a wimp and more about understanding economic realities. In the 80's it was impossible to predict that in the 2000's we would be able to afford to buy and operate 200+ aircraft as big as the Su-30. Now we might have gone too far in the opposite direction, dreaming that we can afford 126 Rafales and a 65k tonne aircraft carrier with 57 more when we clearly can't.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 01 Apr 2020 08:49

Sir my submission is that we were wimps in thoughts and that could be because of various reasons one of them being resource at disposal. But despite all of these the visionaries were the ones who laid the foundations and am very thankful to them. In fact, there are also these stories that we were more or less bartering wheat (?) for MIG23s circa 1983-84. Basically, our policy makers were doing everything possible with whatever cards dealt to them. Of course, our political class could have been better but half were anyways sold out

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 01 Apr 2020 10:10

suryag wrote:Sir my submission is that we were wimps in thoughts and that could be because of various reasons one of them being resource at disposal. But despite all of these the visionaries were the ones who laid the foundations and am very thankful to them. In fact, there are also these stories that we were more or less bartering wheat (?) for MIG23s circa 1983-84. Basically, our policy makers were doing everything possible with whatever cards dealt to them. Of course, our political class could have been better but half were anyways sold out

Even now as a nation or as a polity we have no grand vision of what we want our nation to be....

Aditya_V
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Apr 2020 13:28

Completely OT but many here and decesion makers here think we have choice that Pakistan will leave us in peace, that will never happen. We need as minimum allowing Baluchistan to be free have the Shakarbulge, poonch Bulge , Neelum Valley leading to POK, Thaprakar area of Sindh with a denuked Pakistan with a scrapped Indus Water treaty. Paki Army ISI Jihadi complex has proven it cannot leave us in peace. Then Sikhs must be given custody of thier legitimate Holy sites and Hidus Sharada Peath etc .Those who eat meat other than Jatka meat must not stay in these areas. This must be the plan over the next 50-80 years.


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