Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Wickberg » 07 Aug 2020 20:12

Kartik wrote:
Wickberg wrote:Not true how? Elta radar contains a high percentage of USA origin so it´s not up the Israelis, it´s up to uncle SAM. When I see an operational Uttam in a fighter I believe in it, Until then it´s just a paperproduct, a pipe-dream...


The Elta 2052 is NOT dependent on the USA for export approval. The Tejas has other problems, which it shares with the Gripen and that is the F-404 engine, which is of US origin.

As for Uttam being a paper product because it isn't operational on a fighter, that's a bit rich. That's not very different from the paper product, non-operational AESA that Saab has been now pitching for Gripen C/D users. Name one operational customer for the Saab AESA radar. Saab itself is using a Selex Raven ES-05A on the Gripen E/F instead of using it's own GaN AESA radar.


Yeah,you can keep believe in that. Fact is US sanctioned the Viggen cause of its engine, they have not santioned Gripen. Even though it has been in direct competition against american fighters. They did however sanction the Elta-radar in an export Gripen due to it contains much USA origin. Those are facts. However it think this is moot point cause I don´t think any Tejas would ever get exported, Uttam radar or not.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 07 Aug 2020 23:35

The Viggen was sanctioned by the Americans when the IAF was looking at it because of Cold War era politics and the American love for Pakistan. Not because it was in competition with any American fighter (the other options India was looking at were the Jaguar and Mirage F1). They did not sanction the Gripen during the MRCA because those cold war realities do not exist. It has nothing to do with the Gripen being "sanction-proof". This is more marketing spiel from Saab. You could write a book about the enormous amounts of crap that has come out of Saab's marketing department ever since the Gripen entered the original MMRCA competition, for an aircraft that didn't even have its first flight till 2017.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby deejay » 07 Aug 2020 23:38

nachiket wrote:The Viggen was sanctioned by the Americans when the IAF was looking at it because of Cold War era politics and the American love for Pakistan. Not because it was in competition with any American fighter (the other options India was looking at were the Jaguar and Mirage F1). They did not sanction the Gripen during the MRCA because those cold war realities do not exist. It has nothing to do with the Gripen being "sanction-proof". This is more marketing spiel from Saab. You could write a book about the enormous amounts of crap that has come out of Saab's marketing department ever since the Gripen entered the original MMRCA competition.


You are talking to guy who has blinkers on. They are still in the twentieth century. Ignore and move on.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Wickberg » 08 Aug 2020 07:19

nachiket wrote:The Viggen was sanctioned by the Americans when the IAF was looking at it because of Cold War era politics and the American love for Pakistan. Not because it was in competition with any American fighter (the other options India was looking at were the Jaguar and Mirage F1). They did not sanction the Gripen during the MRCA because those cold war realities do not exist. It has nothing to do with the Gripen being "sanction-proof". This is more marketing spiel from Saab. You could write a book about the enormous amounts of crap that has come out of Saab's marketing department ever since the Gripen entered the original MMRCA competition, for an aircraft that didn't even have its first flight till 2017.


Gripen has been in more competition beside the MRCA and actually won a few. That´s more then you can say about an aircraft wich started the same year (1983) intended to replace the Mig21 in the 90s and is still not in operational service cause IAF really does not want it. Good luck with exports....

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 08 Aug 2020 16:48

Wickberg wrote:
nachiket wrote:The Viggen was sanctioned by the Americans when the IAF was looking at it because of Cold War era politics and the American love for Pakistan. Not because it was in competition with any American fighter (the other options India was looking at were the Jaguar and Mirage F1). They did not sanction the Gripen during the MRCA because those cold war realities do not exist. It has nothing to do with the Gripen being "sanction-proof". This is more marketing spiel from Saab. You could write a book about the enormous amounts of crap that has come out of Saab's marketing department ever since the Gripen entered the original MMRCA competition, for an aircraft that didn't even have its first flight till 2017.


Gripen has been in more competition beside the MRCA and actually won a few. That´s more then you can say about an aircraft wich started the same year (1983) intended to replace the Mig21 in the 90s and is still not in operational service cause IAF really does not want it. Good luck with exports....


What's with the contempt? Has the Tejas done you physical harm? Nations aren't born as aerospace powers, they invest and become one. They have to start somewhere and the Tejas is India's attempt at creating a tactical fighter ecosystem to progressively build upon. Sure, getting exports will be difficult but over time even this will be overcome just like everyone else has been able to do so.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby suryag » 08 Aug 2020 18:58

Folks - OT alert, dont get your warning stripes today

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 09 Aug 2020 10:03

Wickberg wrote:
Kartik wrote:
The Elta 2052 is NOT dependent on the USA for export approval. The Tejas has other problems, which it shares with the Gripen and that is the F-404 engine, which is of US origin.

As for Uttam being a paper product because it isn't operational on a fighter, that's a bit rich. That's not very different from the paper product, non-operational AESA that Saab has been now pitching for Gripen C/D users. Name one operational customer for the Saab AESA radar. Saab itself is using a Selex Raven ES-05A on the Gripen E/F instead of using it's own GaN AESA radar.


Yeah,you can keep believe in that. Fact is US sanctioned the Viggen cause of its engine, they have not santioned Gripen. Even though it has been in direct competition against american fighters. They did however sanction the Elta-radar in an export Gripen due to it contains much USA origin. Those are facts. However it think this is moot point cause I don´t think any Tejas would ever get exported, Uttam radar or not.


Did you write this while drunk? I'm asking because it wouldn't be the first time for you on BRF.

When did Gripen get an Elta radar? They always had an Ericsson PS-05A MSA set on the A/B/C/D and now have moved to Selex because their paper product Saab AESA was not mature enough to risk the Gripen E/F program with it's timelines.

Gripen's F-414 is made entirely by GE, there's no Volvo parts in it. RM12 is also 95% a GE F-404 with some Volvo parts being added due to specific Swedish requirements. if the USA wants, it could easily sanction all Gripen C/D/E/F engines as well, as unlikely as it may be.

As for exports, lets see how many Gripen C/D/E/F manage to find exports. It may well end up being that between Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2 and TEDBF, there'll be more Tejas versions produced and in service by the time Gripen and Tejas production ends.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby idan » 10 Aug 2020 19:01

Saab GaN AESA radar is a continuation of Ericsson Microwave Systems radar family. Ericsson Microwave Systems was transferred to Saab (both companies are owned by Wallenberg family) sometime back and the core research academic partner is still University of Gothenburg and Chalmers. So Uttam cannot be compared to Saab IMHO.

https://saabgroup.com/media/stories/sto ... echnology/

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 10 Aug 2020 19:09

idan wrote:Saab GaN AESA radar is a continuation of Ericsson Microwave Systems radar family. Ericsson Microwave Systems was transferred to Saab (both companies are owned by Wallenberg family) sometime back and the core research academic partner is still University of Gothenburg and Chalmers. So Uttam cannot be compared to Saab IMHO.

https://saabgroup.com/media/stories/sto ... echnology/


It would also be interesting to research the Ericsson airborne AESA program history and where they sourced their very first AESA antenna to kick off the airborne AESA program, many years ago.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby idan » 10 Aug 2020 19:10

TRLs 1,2,3 is still by Chalmers and industrialisation (higher TRL levels) is handled by Saab. Here is an interesting presentation

https://ftfsweden.se/wp-content/uploads ... and-EW.pdf

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby brar_w » 10 Aug 2020 19:23

idan wrote:TRLs 1,2,3 is still by Chalmers and industrialisation (higher TRL levels) is handled by Saab. Here is an interesting presentation

https://ftfsweden.se/wp-content/uploads ... and-EW.pdf


They sourced their very first AESA antenna (airborne) from Raytheon to test out the upgraded Gripen radar possibility. So they had help in piecing together their early program and the chance to get a highly capable antenna from a hot production line (Raytheon was producing AESA radars and/or components at decent scale by 2000, supporting both the F-15 and F-22 programs) was a great accelerator for their program and efforts in general. In the late 1990's, there wasn't a large selection of partners when it came to obtaining production grade AESA antennas for advanced testing, flight testing or for full up radar production.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 18 Aug 2020 00:26

Artistic concept of the cockpit...

https://twitter.com/Maverick_bharat/sta ... 31136?s=20 --->

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 18 Aug 2020 00:54

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 05473?s=20 ----> Tejas Mk 2 with ASTRA-IR close combat missile.

Image

Image

Image

Image

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 46048?s=20 ---> Astra-IR featuring 4 divert thrusters for extremely high G turn.

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 31 Aug 2020 01:17

Read the responses to the first tweet. See the change in mindset from just a while back.

The *possibility* from the birth of Tejas Mk1 :)

====================================================

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/129 ... 42560?s=20 ---> In the wake of our video just up on the Indian fifth generation AMCA’s road ahead (Watch here: http://youtu.be/EbByXkZ0jZI) re-upping a much read piece by @YusufDFI arguing that India ought to scrap the LCA Mk2 and instead be laser-focused on the AMCA: https://bit.ly/3b5ojH4

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12997 ... 68257?s=20 ---> What needs scrapping, should be added to the imports-embargoed list. Scrapping one Indian project for another, would again throw us into mediaeval times. No! Nothing Indian should be scrapped. Sharp decision making, focused hard work and synergy - all we need.

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 94598?s=20 ---> Scrapping LCA MK.2 makes no sense WHATSOEVER. AMCA is a post 2032 bird, LCA MK.2 is to fill the need for a MMRCA from the late 2020s. The IAF isn’t going to go all 5th gen and will need a mix with 4.5++ generation fighters. Unbelievably asinine assertion.

https://twitter.com/fassbear/status/129 ... 18785?s=20 ---> I respect you guys, but please aisa Chutiyap mat likho :lol: Especially you @YusufDFI. If not Tejas MK2 then how will make up squadron numbers for Mirage 2000H retirement and production capacity?

https://twitter.com/mahujam/status/1299 ... 38336?s=20 ---> DFI and all platforms carrying this dumb argument need scrapping!!

https://twitter.com/mahujam/status/1299 ... 01089?s=20 ---> Do we have any more dumb arguments for the day/week/year left?

https://twitter.com/Dramaibaaz/status/1 ... 28288?s=20 ---> American propoganda at play. With Tejas Mk2, lots of orders of fighter jets would be lost to Mk2. So this is a start of a PR campaign to undermine the Tejas, so that India buys more American/European fighters.

https://twitter.com/Dramaibaaz/status/1 ... 21088?s=20 ---> I have also seen videos of so called ‘Experts’ saying how Tejas is not comparable with American jets. Constant undermining of Tejas to seed doubts on our capabilities. Classics disinformation campaign at play. May not the best in the world, but it’s pretty darn good aircraft.

https://twitter.com/himanshu_raj/status ... 21888?s=20 ---> What MK 2 will achieve:
1. First indigenous MWF
2. Vast improvement over MK 1A in all aspects
3. Will incorporate lots of 4.75 generation features like semi stealth, sensor fusion, data link etc
4. Tech developed and proven in MK2 will be used in AMKA

There is no AMCA without Mk 2

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 88704?s=20 ---> Bad ideas remain bad, irrespective of how many times they are repeated. LCA Mk2 cancellation benefits nobody but the MMRCA vendors abroad worried that LCA success + additional Rafales/Su30 upgrade means no more MMRCA. We need Mk2 to bridge the gap to AMCA+ improve manufacturing skills.

Click on the last link above for Firestarter's twitter education to @YusufDFI :lol:

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 31 Aug 2020 01:34

As a side note to the above tweets, I found this...

https://twitter.com/akkiFan22_/status/1 ... 69441?s=20 ---> Sir what’s the progress on Tejas Mk2? There are no recent updates on its timeline.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12997 ... 92450?s=20 ---> Detailed design phase started.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby LakshmanPST » 31 Aug 2020 14:59

Rakesh wrote:As a side note to the above tweets, I found this...

https://twitter.com/akkiFan22_/status/1 ... 69441?s=20 ---> Sir what’s the progress on Tejas Mk2? There are no recent updates on its timeline.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12997 ... 92450?s=20 ---> Detailed design phase started.


A noob question...
How many design phases are there in total for a fighter jet program before metal cutting starts for the first Prototype...?

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 31 Aug 2020 16:33

LakshmanPST wrote:
Rakesh wrote:As a side note to the above tweets, I found this...

https://twitter.com/akkiFan22_/status/1 ... 69441?s=20 ---> Sir what’s the progress on Tejas Mk2? There are no recent updates on its timeline.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12997 ... 92450?s=20 ---> Detailed design phase started.


A noob question...
How many design phases are there in total for a fighter jet program before metal cutting starts for the first Prototype...?


Detailed Design phase is the phase where the actual design begins. Structures, panels, electricals, harnesses, LRUs, etc. So this is the phase where there will be a LOT of engineering work going on. What it indicates is that the Initial Design phase has been completed, the Outer Mould Line is finalised, the general layout and placement of all the constituent parts has been finalized. There is no going back now.

After this phase is over, the metal cutting begins. Long lead items that take the most time to be fabricated and materials ordered, will need to be ordered soon so that they can be delivered in time to begin the Tejas Mk2 prototype construction.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Cyrano » 31 Aug 2020 16:41

Does that mean overall aerodynamic configuration, LO shaping features if any, intake design (diverter less?), canards, air brakes, hard points, cannon position, AR probe etc etc are all decided and fixed ?

Do the artworks by enthusiasts reflect these design elements? So much scope for speculation :)

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 01 Sep 2020 02:15

Mk2 does not have a diverterless intake, at least from all the models and renderings we have seen. The AMCA probably will.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 01 Sep 2020 15:25

amar_p wrote:Does that mean overall aerodynamic configuration, LO shaping features if any, intake design (diverter less?), canards, air brakes, hard points, cannon position, AR probe etc etc are all decided and fixed ?

Do the artworks by enthusiasts reflect these design elements? So much scope for speculation :)


Yes, the aerodynamic configuration, the outer mould line (OML) or the shape of the geometry outside, would have been frozen long ago. All the system designs would have been validated in the Preliminary Design Phase and once they pass the reviews, the Detailed Design Phase begins.

The artwork by enthusiasts, if based on the drawings released by ADA for tenders, should be rather accurate.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Philip » 02 Sep 2020 09:22

Adm.Raks, kindly humour me. A recent statement I read by a worthy gent in uniform,sadly forgot the name, "hoped that the Mk-2 would be at least equal to the M2K in performance." Given that statement coming from the IAF, there is a genuine Q whether reinventing the wheel for only a 4th- gen fighter for ops post 2030 is worth the enormous expense.Secondly,what would the unit cost be? Almost or equal to that of an MKI? It is a legitimate concern as in a recent VAYU,AM Masand said that when the SU-30 MKI deal was signed,HAL agreed to local production costing not more than $1 M . I think today the figure is around $10M extra for a desi MKI.We know that Min.Niirmala S ordered a review of LA costing and brought the fig.for the Mk 1 down to around $50M from a much higher figure. In that context,with the Mk-2 and AMCA programmes running almost parallel,competing for funds, surely it would be wiser to pursue the AMCA which at one stroke will replace all medium fighters- M2Ks,MIG-29s and Jags, instead of adding another type to the list,that is unless the Mk-2 enters series production by 2025.

Given the severe resource crunch,with available proven med. fighters like MIG-29/35s,F-18 SHs,Gripens,Rafales,etc. jousting in the MMRCA 2.0 contest not yet scrappped and required as of yesterday, are available and as rightly pointed out,wil be peddled by their OEMs vigorously. I ask how attractive will the Mk-2 if only as good as a vintage M2K look by 2030 if HAL fails to deliver on time? HAL will be busy with the 80+ 1As ,orders expected by Dec. this year and must produce at least 16/ yr. for the bird not to acquire early obsolescence.

The PLAAF basing J-20 stealth fighters against the IAF will inevitably see a chorus in the uniform blue for a stealth bird. The only available ones will be the SU-57 and JSF. if the demand gets louder,scarce resources will go towards stealth rather than any 4th-gen. option.

Therefore,the experience of the LCA programme thus far must be history if the Mk-2 is to succeed. A completely focussed management of the Mk-2 programme ,with a hire-and-fire accountable DG as its head is required.The JSF programme should be looked at,how Gen.Bogdan turned it around when it was in serious trouble. If by 2025 series production begins, and the product is superior to the M2K,Rafale std. ,then by 2030 100 to 120 aircraft could be built with the pvt. sector also chipping in with a prod. line, so that it will be timed to taper off just when AMCA prod. begins. We must thus aim for at least 240 LCAs to be built by 2030.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Prasad » 02 Sep 2020 10:38

Round & round we go. AMCA will be more expensive. We already operate enough expensive platforms in the MKI & Rafale & legacy fighters. Entire fleet cannot be expensive fighters. You need previous gen fighters to form the bulk like pasta in a salad. Even the AMCA is not expected to be full-stealth after the initial phase of a conflict. AMCA is twin-engined, MWF will be single-engined. We need a large number of new aircraft to counter the PLAAF and PAF combined. We need hi tech jobs. Ex chief Dhanoa said IAF wants 10 squadrons of Mk2? AMCA is still under development and the Mk2 is a more achievable goal given it isn't reaching for next-gen tech (in our context). So even if the AMCA slips by a few years (entirely possible), we will not be left out with an import or suffer situation (which is exactly why such suggestions are being made what with the americans being pally and an offer for the f-35 might just come up in a few years' time)

Enough reasoning?

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Philip » 03 Sep 2020 05:38

Understood,provided timeframes are maintained and deadlines strictly adhered too.The LCA has been and still is a painful experience and the MK-1A hasn't even flown yet. I would ,if funds are problematic,build more 1A/B/Cs whatever,cheaper SE fighters than a MK-2 whose production costs will be far more than a Mk-1/1A, and more modern expensive AMCAs,which surely cannot cost more than a Rafale.That I think is what the good ACM had in mind,an affordable med. fighter. The problem for the Mk-2 will come if and when a decision is taken for the MMRCA 2.0 contest. If whatever bird is chosen is more capable and around the same cost as a Mk-2, you can expect a bunfight for the orders.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby m_saini » 03 Sep 2020 06:03

Philip wrote:....If whatever bird is chosen is more capable and around the same cost as a Mk-2, you can expect a bunfight for the orders.


Isn't this the major problem plaguing our MIC? We don't seem smart enough to accept less capable fighters for the same cost in the name of developing a domestic ecosystem. While other countries happily induct worse platforms for even higher prices to keep their industries chugging along.

Case in point being the French who are happily producing 4th gen Rafales even though a 5th gen F-35 is available to them for a cheaper price.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Vivek K » 03 Sep 2020 06:12

Saini sahab - don't you think expecting support from Philipji for domestic efforts will occur when the Sun turns icy cold? For someone that unabashedly opposes with all his might his country's every effort at developing a local industry (T-90 junk in favor of Arjuns, Mig-35/29/....plug in your favorite roosi machine) and has never hidden his contempt for domestic fledgling capability development, his posts have been extremely consistent to his belief that Indians are incapable of producing a good weapon system.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 03 Sep 2020 06:13

AM Nambiar's comparison with the Mirage-2000 was in terms of payload and range specifications. Not in terms of the sophistication of Avionics. The Mk1A itself is equivalent or better than the Mirage in those aspects with its AESA radar.

It is incredibly disingenuous to compare the Tejas Mk2 to the Mirage-2000 and say that we will be producing an aircraft equivalent to the 80's Mirage in 2030. The BVR capability of the 80's Mirage was a grand total of 2 semi-active Super 530D's. Yes, that was its max loadout of SARH missiles. And that continued till the 2010's in IAF when we finally started upgrading them. So when we are comparing Mk2 to the Mirage it is the upgraded Mirage-2000I which is being talked about and the Tejas Mk2 will be better than that in all respects. Remember we only had single digit numbers of Mirage-2000I's as recently as last year.

In any case the AM compared it to the Mirage because that is what we have. You could very well compare it to the Gripen E/F which only flew for the first time in 2017 and the comparison will still be valid. Are the Swedes stupid then to build a Mirage-2000 equivalent and actively sell it to other countries right now?

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 03 Sep 2020 06:24

I love it how people use AM Nambiar's comparison to the Mirage-2000 to ask why is the Tejas Mk2 necessary if it is "only" going to be equivalent to the Mirage-2000, while conveniently ignoring that the Air Marshal himself was adamant in his interview that the Mk2 was absolutely necessary both for IAF's operational needs as well as a stepping stone to the AMCA for our local design and manufacturing expertise.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby vivek_ahuja » 03 Sep 2020 09:53

I am not sure we have the budgetary resources or time (given how the IAF is slowly filling up on Rafales) to take a staged "stepping-stone" approach to the AMCA over 15 years. Either make the Tejas Mk2 for its own sake and deploy in numbers, or make way for the AMCA and speed the latter up. If the Mk2 is a stepping stone tech demonstrator project, then it is going to stay in prototype form.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby tsarkar » 03 Sep 2020 19:28

nachiket wrote:AM Nambiar's comparison with the Mirage-2000 was in terms of payload and range specifications.

True. The Tejas is a LCA with payload in 3000-4000 kg category while Mirage 2000 is a MCA with payload in 6300 kg category.

The next logical progression is to build a medium class fighter.

vivek_ahuja wrote:I am not sure we have the budgetary resources or time (given how the IAF is slowly filling up on Rafales) to take a staged "stepping-stone" approach to the AMCA over 15 years. Either make the Tejas Mk2 for its own sake and deploy in numbers, or make way for the AMCA and speed the latter up.


The logical progression for Indian R&D and manufacture is Tejas Mk1 -> Tejas Mk2/MWF -> TEDBF/ORCA -> AMCA

Without smooth learning in each phase, one cannot achieve perfection in the next.

Without building a conventional twin engined fighter, one cannot perfect a VLO twin engined fighter.

Secondly, we now have a real two front war and the situation wont change for the next many decades. The IAF has to expand and only domestic capabilities can help with the expansion.

Imports will keep the IAF a 30 sq force. Indigenization can make IAF a 50 sq force. The latter is inevitable.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 03 Sep 2020 23:02

vivek_ahuja wrote:I am not sure we have the budgetary resources or time (given how the IAF is slowly filling up on Rafales) to take a staged "stepping-stone" approach to the AMCA over 15 years. Either make the Tejas Mk2 for its own sake and deploy in numbers, or make way for the AMCA and speed the latter up. If the Mk2 is a stepping stone tech demonstrator project, then it is going to stay in prototype form.

Vivek saar, if you see AM Nambiar's whole interview with Shiv Aroor, you will notice that he mentions that he expects the AMCA will start replacing the Su-30 when it comes. He mentions a 2040 timeframe for it, but we can hope that we can reduce that timeline by a bit. But realistically speaking we cannot expect the AMCA in squadron service before 2035 at the earliest. It is far too big of a leap over the Tejas and requires the R&D of a lot of new technologies.

The Tejas Mk2 can be ready far before that and there is very much an operational need for it in the Air Force. All the squadrons of Jaguars, Mirage-2000's and Mig-29's will have to be replaced by something before the Su-30's start being replaced. A single aircraft that can replace all three is the best possible solution. The Mk2 can do that.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby vivek_ahuja » 04 Sep 2020 00:37

nachiket wrote:The Tejas Mk2 can be ready far before that and there is very much an operational need for it in the Air Force. All the squadrons of Jaguars, Mirage-2000's and Mig-29's will have to be replaced by something before the Su-30's start being replaced. A single aircraft that can replace all three is the best possible solution. The Mk2 can do that.


I don't doubt that the Tejas Mk2 can do what you have described; my concern rises from what the IAF wants it to do. I agree that we should make the Mk2 just for its own sake for the purposes you outlined. Somehow I think the IAF is making noises about "bridging the gap" etc. that makes me suspicious of their acquisition plans for the Mk2.

I have learned from hard experienced on this forum to be pessimist (who is happy to be proven wrong, btw) rather than an optimist when it comes to the big-ticket Indian MIC products.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Wickberg » 21 Sep 2020 05:32

Kartik wrote:
Wickberg wrote:Not true how? Elta radar contains a high percentage of USA origin so it´s not up the Israelis, it´s up to uncle SAM. When I see an operational Uttam in a fighter I believe in it, Until then it´s just a paperproduct, a pipe-dream...


The Elta 2052 is NOT dependent on the USA for export approval. The Tejas has other problems, which it shares with the Gripen and that is the F-404 engine, which is of US origin.

As for Uttam being a paper product because it isn't operational on a fighter, that's a bit rich. That's not very different from the paper product, non-operational AESA that Saab has been now pitching for Gripen C/D users. Name one operational customer for the Saab AESA radar. Saab itself is using a Selex Raven ES-05A on the Gripen E/F instead of using it's own GaN AESA radar.


https://www.flightglobal.com/israel-bar ... 84.article
There, now you can ban me again....

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby ks_sachin » 21 Sep 2020 06:50

Wickberg wrote:
Kartik wrote:
The Elta 2052 is NOT dependent on the USA for export approval. The Tejas has other problems, which it shares with the Gripen and that is the F-404 engine, which is of US origin.

As for Uttam being a paper product because it isn't operational on a fighter, that's a bit rich. That's not very different from the paper product, non-operational AESA that Saab has been now pitching for Gripen C/D users. Name one operational customer for the Saab AESA radar. Saab itself is using a Selex Raven ES-05A on the Gripen E/F instead of using it's own GaN AESA radar.


https://www.flightglobal.com/israel-bar ... 84.article
There, now you can ban me again....


An article from 2011!!

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 21 Sep 2020 15:00

Wickberg wrote:
Kartik wrote:
The Elta 2052 is NOT dependent on the USA for export approval. The Tejas has other problems, which it shares with the Gripen and that is the F-404 engine, which is of US origin.

As for Uttam being a paper product because it isn't operational on a fighter, that's a bit rich. That's not very different from the paper product, non-operational AESA that Saab has been now pitching for Gripen C/D users. Name one operational customer for the Saab AESA radar. Saab itself is using a Selex Raven ES-05A on the Gripen E/F instead of using it's own GaN AESA radar.


https://www.flightglobal.com/israel-bar ... 84.article
There, now you can ban me again....


:roll:

Posting something irrelevant from 2011, when in 2017-18 we have had contracts for Elta 2052 on the Jaguar DARIN-3 itself and the Elta 2052 was chosen over the in-development AESA that Saab offered for the Tejas Mk1A.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Wickberg » 21 Sep 2020 23:17

Kartik wrote:
Wickberg wrote:
https://www.flightglobal.com/israel-bar ... 84.article
There, now you can ban me again....


:roll:

Posting something irrelevant from 2011, when in 2017-18 we have had contracts for Elta 2052 on the Jaguar DARIN-3 itself and the Elta 2052 was chosen over the in-development AESA that Saab offered for the Tejas Mk1A.


We were talking about this "The Elta 2052 is NOT dependent on the USA for export approval". You were and still are wrong. Case closed. Tejas can not be exported with elta radar without US approval.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Wickberg » 22 Sep 2020 03:18

Wickberg wrote:
Kartik wrote:
:roll:

Posting something irrelevant from 2011, when in 2017-18 we have had contracts for Elta 2052 on the Jaguar DARIN-3 itself and the Elta 2052 was chosen over the in-development AESA that Saab offered for the Tejas Mk1A.


We were talking about this "The Elta 2052 is NOT dependent on the USA for export approval". You were and still are wrong. Case closed. Tejas can not be exported with elta radar without US approval.


Not a single reply. This is what the swedish tennisplayer Björn Borg would call "game, set and match".

Admin note: banned permanently for being a useless troll
Last edited by hnair on 22 Sep 2020 03:41, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Permanently banned

hnair
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby hnair » 22 Sep 2020 03:38

Wickberg wrote:Not a single reply. This is what the swedish tennisplayer Björn Borg would call "game, set and match".


And you can tell whomever you referred above that we said "OMKV!"

Kartik
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 22 Sep 2020 15:11

Wickberg wrote:
Kartik wrote:
:roll:

Posting something irrelevant from 2011, when in 2017-18 we have had contracts for Elta 2052 on the Jaguar DARIN-3 itself and the Elta 2052 was chosen over the in-development AESA that Saab offered for the Tejas Mk1A.


We were talking about this "The Elta 2052 is NOT dependent on the USA for export approval". You were and still are wrong. Case closed. Tejas can not be exported with elta radar without US approval.


More nonsense. The Gripen is jam packed with US parts and mostly carries US weapons, so does Saab get US approval for each Gripen sale?

Besides, the point is moot, given that the Uttam has completed flight trials on a Tejas prototype and offers an indigenous alternative both to the IAF as well as to any export nation.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Prem Kumar » 22 Sep 2020 16:28

hnair wrote:
Wickberg wrote:Not a single reply. This is what the swedish tennisplayer Björn Borg would call "game, set and match".


And you can tell whomever you referred above that we said "OMKV!"


Had to Google OMKV. Choice Malayalam phrase!

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Dileep » 22 Sep 2020 23:21

I am trying to buy some circuit breakers and contactors for uknowwhat and they need a bleddy license to even quote. These darned things need to keep holding hundreds of amperes even while pulling Gs and taking gun recoil, so there are only a couple of sources.

Like it or not, every plane has its balls pickled in bourbon, wine or vodka.


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