Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11021
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 05 Oct 2020 21:30


pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby pankajs » 08 Oct 2020 18:07

https://twitter.com/kartachar/status/13 ... 4027024384
As presented by Dr Girish Deodhare- Tejas Mk2 (MWF) first prototype planned to be rolled out by July 2022. First flight by early 2023. This is the most eagerly awaited fighter as far as I'm personally concerned. Set to form sizeable bulk of IAF fleet.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1313884740617859072
Human-Engineering evaluations of its cockpit workspace. Side-Stick...
Image

https://twitter.com/TejForTweet/status/ ... 4799463424
I think new pilots will get easily habitual to this. I can sense how strange this must be for you Smiling face with open mouth and smiling eyes. I have never flown anything but it was weird for me as well during the Expo.
Image
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1314039654136471552
Mk-2 cockpit

...quite different from Mk-1

srin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2086
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:13

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby srin » 08 Oct 2020 18:15

The private JV they are planning for AMCA, they should do it first for MWF. Only then we can order it in bulk to make it the backbone of IAF for next couple of decades.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3460
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Vips » 08 Oct 2020 18:25

If MWF/AMCA is offered as a combo deal you will see all the private sector biggies falling over each other to grab the contract. We can do a e-auction to get maximum investment.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby pankajs » 08 Oct 2020 18:27

I wanted private firms involved right from the LAC 1 stage ... they are in a matter of speaking if they are making sub-assemblies but what I wanted was the 2nd line fully handed over to private player on lease.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8315
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 26 Nov 2020 08:09

More details coming out. 3388 kg of internal fuel. 7148 kg of total fuel. The things that make me chuckle: IB Drop tank capacity is 1360 kgs(not ltrs). And FINALLY, an oval centerline DT carrying 1040 kg of fuel. Bolo, kahaan ghumne jaana hai?
Image

Image

These are really close to Mirage 2000's DTs.

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19966
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 26 Nov 2020 11:51

3388kg, that's a 37.8% increase in internal fuel over Tejas's 2458 kg.

In the same ballpark as a F-16 (without EFT): 3175 kg (https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets ... ng-falcon/)

Still lower than that on the Mirage 2000 which had 3950 (https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/mirage-2000.htm)
However, its dry thrust SFC is 0.9 (lbs of fuel/lb of thrust) and that of the GFC

F414 supposedly
F414-GE-400
(MIL) 14,700lbs @ 0.840 lb/HR/lb st
(MAX) 22,000lbs @ 1.850 lb/HR/lb st

Wonder why they didn't add a bit more fuel. Perhaps focus is on DT which can anyhow be dropped before combat.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8354
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby nachiket » 26 Nov 2020 12:24

Karan M wrote:3
Still lower than that on the Mirage 2000 which had 3950 (https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/mirage-2000.htm)
However, its dry thrust SFC is 0.9 (lbs of fuel/lb of thrust) and that of the GFC

I believe that is a mistake. M2k fuel capacity is 3978 liters not kg. Let me look for a source. I am the biggest fan of the M2k but that 3950kg number seems impossible for an aircraft that size.

Edit: The FAS link itself says 3950 L not kg. That comes to around 3160 kg (I'm using 0.8kg/L). The Tejas Mk2 should outrange the M2k easily on internal fuel alone. Tejas Mk2 fuel capacity in liters will be ~4235L, greater than even the Jaguar (although the Jaguar's puny engines probably use less fuel).

This aircraft is going to be an excellent single replacement for all our M2k's, Mig-29's and Jaguars. Can't wait to see it fly.

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2646
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 26 Nov 2020 12:38

Karan M wrote:3388kg, that's a 37.8% increase in internal fuel over Tejas's 2458 kg.

In the same ballpark as a F-16 (without EFT): 3175 kg (https://www.af.mil/About-Us/Fact-Sheets ... ng-falcon/)

Still lower than that on the Mirage 2000 which had 3950 (https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/mirage-2000.htm)
However, its dry thrust SFC is 0.9 (lbs of fuel/lb of thrust) and that of the GFC

F414 supposedly
F414-GE-400
(MIL) 14,700lbs @ 0.840 lb/HR/lb st
(MAX) 22,000lbs @ 1.850 lb/HR/lb st

Wonder why they didn't add a bit more fuel. Perhaps focus is on DT which can anyhow be dropped before combat.



M2k is 3100 kgs of fuel -> 3950 ltrs

Cybaru
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2646
Joined: 12 Jun 2000 11:31
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Cybaru » 26 Nov 2020 12:43

I am sure someone can confirm from calcs, but my numbers put it around 1.10 kms to 1 liter of fuel in optimal flight..

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 1019
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 26 Nov 2020 15:04

Thanks Indranil you beat me to it.
HAL Tender
https://hal-india.co.in/Tender_Details. ... ivkey=MTY=

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 1019
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 26 Nov 2020 15:34

From the HAL tyre tender MTOW is 18200 kg for Tejas mk2.
From Defexpo 2020 empty weight is 7850 kg.

Estimates

IB fuel tank full weight with 1360 kg fuel approx is 1500 kg
Central fuel tank with 1040kg full weight 1150kg.
Internal fuel roughly 3400kg.
18200kg -2*1500kg-1150kg-3400kg-7850kg=2800kg

Taking 800kg as same as Tejas mk1 of 2 CCM and other misc.

Full fuel fraction at MTOW is 39.27%

Empty weight fraction at MTOW is 43%.

We get remaining external payload of 2000kg which 2 mid board pylons can carry if rated to 1000 kg each.

Clean take of weight=12050kg.

External payload=6150kg.

Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9981
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Yagnasri » 26 Nov 2020 17:57

Big payload for the size of the aircraft.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11021
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 26 Nov 2020 22:27

IR and others, time to update page 1 of this thread? :)

Please let me know what numbers should go in.

IR, where did you get that picture from and can I put it on the first page of this thread?

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 1019
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 26 Nov 2020 22:36

Picture is from the HAL Tender link that I have posted.

Can post the numbers. If any number that I have estimated is incorrect IR should know.

Normal take of weight 17500kg.

MTOW 18200kg.

Internal fuel 3388 kg

External fuel 3760 kg

Total fuel 7148 kg.

The above figures can go into page 1.

Clean take off weight and external payload need confirmation.
Last edited by sankum on 26 Nov 2020 22:51, edited 1 time in total.

tandav
BRFite
Posts: 661
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 08:24

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby tandav » 26 Nov 2020 22:46

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... 38528?s=20 ---> Tejas Mk 2 in splinter camo

Looks similar to the J10.
Last edited by Rakesh on 27 Nov 2020 01:29, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please do not re-quote pictures when replying. Post Edited.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4744
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Cain Marko » 27 Nov 2020 01:01

sankum wrote:Clean take of weight=12050kg.

External payload=6150kg.

Hmm. Mtow: 18500 - 4000kg (internal fuel and fluids), 6500 payload + pylons ~ 8000kg empty weight.

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 1019
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby sankum » 27 Nov 2020 01:21

Roughly it is like below
Empty weight 7850 kg
Internal fuel 3388 kg
Misc 800kg

Sum of above Clean take off weight 12050 kg
External Pay load 6150 kg

Total sum MTOW 18200 kg

Misc 800 kg is as below

Pilot wt 100kg
Cannon ammo + chaff / flare 100kg
2 CCM 200kg
Pylons 400 kg

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11021
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 27 Nov 2020 01:30

sankum wrote:Picture is from the HAL Tender link that I have posted.

Can post the numbers. If any number that I have estimated is incorrect IR should know.

Sankum-ji, I have updated page 1.

Please check and IR also check and edit, if anything is wrong.

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8315
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 27 Nov 2020 02:09

The fuel numbers are correct.

The MTOW I would still say is 17.5 tons. The 18.2 tons I think is for contingency.

Mk2/MWF will easily outrange Mk2. Higher fuel fraction and significantly lower SFC can lead to only one thing. I would say 300-500 kms more in range.

Rishi_Tri
BRFite
Posts: 513
Joined: 13 Feb 2017 14:49

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rishi_Tri » 27 Nov 2020 03:32

MWF shall be an exceptional aircraft within the design philosophy that has been adopted for it. But the more I think about it, the more difficult I find to justify it.

Almost all the new fighter programs on the drawing board or coming off the drawing board now are 5th Gen or 6th Gen. Then why are we pursuing a program that in 2020 is 4.5 Gen? Time or Cost does not answer the question given that 5th Gen designs are ever present now. Given that MWF is almost a ground up design, it should have had solid 5th Gen characteristics. I specifically allude to Stealth Shaping.

AMCA has been on drawing board for more than a decade now and MWF with Stealth Shaping would have become an important stepping stone to AMCA. Perhaps even 'the proving platform' for 5th Gen / 6th Gen Technologies for AMCA.

By taking 4th Gen / 4.5 th Gen approach for MWF, we are limiting the possibilities that the platform may have potentially had. Just my humble view.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11021
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 27 Nov 2020 03:47

Please read the many pages in various threads on this forum....that in order to reach 5th generation, you have to master the 4th generation and all the successive iterations post that. There is no going around that hurdle, both for ADA and for yourself in learning. Thank You.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5493
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 27 Nov 2020 12:09

Indranil wrote:More details coming out. 3388 kg of internal fuel. 7148 kg of total fuel. The things that make me chuckle: IB Drop tank capacity is 1360 kgs(not ltrs). And FINALLY, an oval centerline DT carrying 1040 kg of fuel. Bolo, kahaan ghumne jaana hai?
Image

Image

These are really close to Mirage 2000's DTs.


Nice. Compares well with the 3400 kgs of internal fuel on the Gripen E and is slightly greater than that of the Mirage-2000. With IFR and OBOGS, the Tejas Mk2 will have incredible range and endurance.

Roop
BRFite
Posts: 401
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Roop » 28 Nov 2020 09:08

Indranil wrote:Mk2/MWF will easily outrange Mk2.


That's a typo, I presume? You meant to say "will easily outrange M2K", right?

Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 19966
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Karan M » 28 Nov 2020 14:48

nachiket wrote:
Karan M wrote:3
Still lower than that on the Mirage 2000 which had 3950 (https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/mirage-2000.htm)
However, its dry thrust SFC is 0.9 (lbs of fuel/lb of thrust) and that of the GFC

I believe that is a mistake. M2k fuel capacity is 3978 liters not kg. Let me look for a source. I am the biggest fan of the M2k but that 3950kg number seems impossible for an aircraft that size.

Edit: The FAS link itself says 3950 L not kg. That comes to around 3160 kg (I'm using 0.8kg/L). The Tejas Mk2 should outrange the M2k easily on internal fuel alone. Tejas Mk2 fuel capacity in liters will be ~4235L, greater than even the Jaguar (although the Jaguar's puny engines probably use less fuel).

This aircraft is going to be an excellent single replacement for all our M2k's, Mig-29's and Jaguars. Can't wait to see it fly.


Thanks, makes sense. I was doing rough calcs and mixed up the units.

We seem to have finally got the range/payload logic in the right mix.

Armuan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 26
Joined: 24 Oct 2016 01:56

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Armuan » 29 Nov 2020 20:37

Very impressive numbers.

With Tejas Mk1, 1A, and Mk2 poised to replace so many legacy fighters in IAF, we are sole sourced and firmly in the US orbit for engines. They will have a crushing grip on our air force. Regarding a dire push for our own powerplants, sadly I have not seen a reckoning in powers that be yet.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351&p=2470786&hilit=engine#p2463725

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3460
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Vips » 12 Jan 2021 20:14

There are some design refinements and enhancements of existing features in the Tejas MK2 MWF and these will be revealed at the upcoming Aero India 2021:
-Tejas Mark 2 will have Retractable probe in place of the fixed inflight refueling system.
-Full Scale Cockpit Design
-Minor changes in the air-intakes
-Improved jet fuel starter which will have higher output power
-1700 liters drop tank.
-No technology demonstrator version to be made and first fighter will be rolled off which will from the very start be made with interchangeable parts that will result in easy maintenance
-Private sector companies will be tier 1 suppliers. Production line will remain with HAL and no plans to transfer production tot he Private sector due to "lack of interest".

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2773
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby darshhan » 12 Jan 2021 20:21

In case US decides to apply Catsaa sanctions on Bharat for procuring Russian S400s, where does that leave Tejas program i.e wrt engines for which we are solely dependent on America??

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11021
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jan 2021 22:09

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11021
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 12 Jan 2021 22:10

Vips wrote:-Improved jet fuel starter which will have higher output power.

Image

Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8315
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Indranil » 12 Jan 2021 23:43

I am actually not sure if Mk2 will have the GTSU or an APU/ATS. Latest tenders speak of the latter. Retractable AAR seems more likely than not now.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4451
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 12 Jan 2021 23:56

darshhan wrote:In case US decides to apply Catsaa sanctions on Bharat for procuring Russian S400s, where does that leave Tejas program i.e wrt engines for which we are solely dependent on America??


I believe there has been an understanding regarding military supplies linked to the numerous alphabet treaties that had been signed off., also a sort of mechanism/office is in place ( at the pentagon ?) to address issues of acquisition

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 55363
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby ramana » 13 Jan 2021 01:20

srin wrote:The private JV they are planning for AMCA, they should do it first for MWF. Only then we can order it in bulk to make it the backbone of IAF for next couple of decades.



Mk2 or MWF is well on its way. Any new project plan will induce delays.

Vips
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3460
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Vips » 13 Jan 2021 01:30

kit wrote:
darshhan wrote:In case US decides to apply Catsaa sanctions on Bharat for procuring Russian S400s, where does that leave Tejas program i.e wrt engines for which we are solely dependent on America??


I believe there has been an understanding regarding military supplies linked to the numerous alphabet treaties that had been signed off., also a sort of mechanism/office is in place ( at the pentagon ?) to address issues of acquisition


There is only so much pressure that US can apply on India. Too much and it would risk losing India back to Russia or France. We can well afford to pay the French for alternate stuff if we are paying top $ to the US.

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4451
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby kit » 13 Jan 2021 01:38

Vips wrote:There is only so much pressure that US can apply on India. Too much and it would risk losing India back to Russia or France. We can well afford to pay the French for alternate stuff if we are paying top $ to the US.

Its compulsions., the US cannot play its lone ranger global cop any more and the new admin is not so introspective as Trump. The US is certainly welcome to try its CAATSA or whatever. What exactly is going to be its gain ? Look at the risk / benefit analysis ! But I would really like to think GOI has thought through a worst case scenario.

yensoy
BRFite
Posts: 1902
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby yensoy » 13 Jan 2021 07:17

Right, we are reaching a stage where the US will need us more than we need them. Our need will be for military hardware, software (processes/knowledge) and intel. Their need from us will be one of money, interests, intel as well as influence & diplomatic/military support. It will no longer be possible to have a US led "grand alliance of democracies" with India outside. That will start to look and smell like a white man's club, which in today's world will not be regarded well.

AkshaySG
BRFite
Posts: 185
Joined: 30 Jul 2020 08:51

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby AkshaySG » 13 Jan 2021 11:06

Couple of questions.

How much is the Mk2/MWF timeline dependent on the contract signing, building and induction of Mk1A?

Is HAL waiting for feedback/operational performance on Mk1 and Mk1A before finalizing the design?

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5493
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kartik » 13 Jan 2021 14:15

AkshaySG wrote:Couple of questions.

How much is the Mk2/MWF timeline dependent on the contract signing, building and induction of Mk1A?

Is HAL waiting for feedback/operational performance on Mk1 and Mk1A before finalizing the design?


Design has been finalized. Now in detail design stage and metal cutting on the prototype should begin in February 2021, which isn't far away.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 11021
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Rakesh » 14 Jan 2021 23:00

https://twitter.com/MrrMukherjee/status ... 59936?s=20 ---> Full scale model of the home grown #Tejas Mk2 medium weight fighter aircraft to be displayed during Aero India in Feb 2021. Metal cutting for the first prototype within weeks.

Kakarat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2159
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Postby Kakarat » 18 Jan 2021 00:43

https://twitter.com/VamsiVamy/status/13 ... 1645149187
I think it's TEDBF official design. This slide is from the presentation given by Dr. Satish Reddy ,today in Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre official YouTube channel

Image

https://twitter.com/VamsiVamy/status/13 ... 5534697474
Image


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ashthor, Atmavik and 33 guests