Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ldev »

Kartik wrote:. And with USSR and Russia it was also at rather affordable prices, which killed the incentive to develop locally and which is also the reason we have such a large percentage of our Armed forces of Russian origin.
Even Cuba, that most Soviet of satellites, took the hard decision to wean itself off the USSR when it could no longer get cheap/subsidized sugar/wheat from Russia by going into tourism. It had to make tough choices to survive economically but it made them. India chose the easy route and Russia continued to sell legacy military equipment developed during the Soviet heydays to India well into the present day at ever increasing prices.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15282 ... TkYP0rHV0w ---> Tejas Mk-1A will be built in hundreds, just like other single engine jets. Pick any international example. Once Tejas Mk-2 is given a go ahead, they will follow in hundreds too. The writing is on the wall.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15247 ... exIbzXQM4g ---> "The IAF will augment its fighter fleet through the LCA Mk I, the AMCA, LCA Mk II in the interim and the combat jets...": Chief of the Air Staff. Brilliant interview. Very precise. Thank you @nitingokhale
https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... TkYP0rHV0w ---> Without the Tejas Mk2, the supplier base and design expertise created for the Tejas will languish, production lines will wither. The Tejas Mk2 is also the basis of the AMCA. IMHO its continuation is critical. Glad to see the CAS reaffirm IAF interest and support.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15282 ... TkYP0rHV0w ---> Why address Tejas MK2 as interim solution? Wouldn't it be the backbone of IAF considering its replacing Mig29, Mirage, and Jag?

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... TkYP0rHV0w ---> The AMCA is the next fighter the IAF truly wants - perhaps thats what the CAS meant. But you are right. The Tejas Mk2 will become the IAFs truly modern strike force. Low RCS, high payload to range, state of the art avionics and weapons, rapidly reconfigurable, swing-role.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by KSingh »

titash wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Why you need Meteor and AMRAAM, when Astra Mk2, Mk3 and SFDR can do the same thing for cheaper?

JDAM integration is a good thing. Even a future AMRAAM and Meteor integration as well. Good for foreign customers.
Diversification or Second-Sourcing is actually a solid de-risking as well as cost-reduction strategy

Buying a mix of Russian + French + Indian (US Engine) planes and sensor/weapon packages means that:

1) All the big fish have a finger in the pie and can benefit from missteps or geopolitical events. It also ensures that their economies and jobs are somewhat tied to your strategies & priorities. they won't overtly piss you off

2) Black swan events like coronavirus and Ukraine-Russia don't crater 100% of your operational availability via supply chain disruptions

3) Ensures a (parallel) backup plan against the failure of ambitious customized programs (e.g. LCA Mk1 thrust not enough / bird too heavy; SS-N-19 missiles on Kirov class not working hence SS-N-12 for Slava class)

4) Ensures early introduction of transformational capabilities e.g. Meteor while domestic alternatives are still cooking
It also means your frontline equipment is at their whim and fancy and if they want to they can cripple your entire war fighting capability

I refuse to believe this concern hasn’t weighed into the equation in the past in the aftermath of Pak/Chinese aggression

Plenty of accounts of Americans playing games to disrupt Indian ops in kargil.

It’s all well and good when you are in their good graces but the Ukrainian affair has to show that India’s strategic alignment and interests will rarely align perfectly with the West’s

The worst thing india can do is get itself caught in the middle of big power games between east and West. 11356 frigate story should say it all, india should’ve learned its lesson after 2014 when the IAF’s AN32RE upgrade was unilaterally halted by UKR in aftermath of Crimean invasion.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by titash »

KSingh wrote:
titash wrote:
Diversification or Second-Sourcing is actually a solid de-risking as well as cost-reduction strategy

Buying a mix of Russian + French + Indian (US Engine) planes and sensor/weapon packages means that:

1) All the big fish have a finger in the pie and can benefit from missteps or geopolitical events. It also ensures that their economies and jobs are somewhat tied to your strategies & priorities. they won't overtly piss you off

2) Black swan events like coronavirus and Ukraine-Russia don't crater 100% of your operational availability via supply chain disruptions

3) Ensures a (parallel) backup plan against the failure of ambitious customized programs (e.g. LCA Mk1 thrust not enough / bird too heavy; SS-N-19 missiles on Kirov class not working hence SS-N-12 for Slava class)

4) Ensures early introduction of transformational capabilities e.g. Meteor while domestic alternatives are still cooking
It also means your frontline equipment is at their whim and fancy and if they want to they can cripple your entire war fighting capability

I refuse to believe this concern hasn’t weighed into the equation in the past in the aftermath of Pak/Chinese aggression

Plenty of accounts of Americans playing games to disrupt Indian ops in kargil.

It’s all well and good when you are in their good graces but the Ukrainian affair has to show that India’s strategic alignment and interests will rarely align perfectly with the West’s

The worst thing india can do is get itself caught in the middle of big power games between east and West. 11356 frigate story should say it all, india should’ve learned its lesson after 2014 when the IAF’s AN32RE upgrade was unilaterally halted by UKR in aftermath of Crimean invasion.
KSingh-ji,

I don't quite get your point.

India is not an OEM in the league of the US, Russia, France, or China. We have no choice but to import and supplement judiciously with indigenous stuff.

Each and every system and subsystem we have, can be sanctioned by the Americans or Russians or French if they feel like it on any given day. You are absolutely correct - it means our frontline equipment is at their whim and fancy, and if they want they can cripple our entire war fighting capability, and we can do ghanta about it today.

Ukraine/Russia screwed our Talwar Frigate plans. The alternative is the P-17/P-17A that could be screwed by the Americans and Germans if they feel like it

Ukraine/Russia screwed our AN32RE upgrade plans. The alternative is the locally assembled C-295 that can be screwed by Pratt & Whitney Canada if they feel like it

Almost every indigenous system (Tejas, Arjun, Astra, etc.) has imported semiconductors, PCBs, black box modules, and entire sub-systems worth millions. Every indigenous product we have is open to sanctions by someone or the other

The only way forward is to smile, turn the other cheek, pay hafta regularly while continually indigenizing, find second source suppliers like the Israelis, and diversify across OEMs
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ShivS »

That is a realistic statement :)

Defence production capability is a process, not a destination and we are very early in the process
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by VenkataS »

titash wrote: India is not an OEM in the league of the US, Russia, France, or China. We have no choice but to import and supplement judiciously with indigenous stuff.

Each and every system and subsystem we have, can be sanctioned by the Americans or Russians or French if they feel like it on any given day. You are absolutely correct - it means our frontline equipment is at their whim and fancy, and if they want they can cripple our entire war fighting capability, and we can do ghanta about it today.

Ukraine/Russia screwed our Talwar Frigate plans. The alternative is the P-17/P-17A that could be screwed by the Americans and Germans if they feel like it

Ukraine/Russia screwed our AN32RE upgrade plans. The alternative is the locally assembled C-295 that can be screwed by Pratt & Whitney Canada if they feel like it

Almost every indigenous system (Tejas, Arjun, Astra, etc.) has imported semiconductors, PCBs, black box modules, and entire sub-systems worth millions. Every indigenous product we have is open to sanctions by someone or the other

The only way forward is to smile, turn the other cheek, pay hafta regularly while continually indigenizing, find second source suppliers like the Israelis, and diversify across OEMs
That also means that to remain a sovereign nation with an independent foreign policy we need to double down now and commit ourselves to bootstrapping our domestic MIC as a national priority. We might have to suffer for 10 or more years with equipment which is not at cutting edge but unless you commit to only use domestic MIC for your critical equipment needs you will never wean yourself away from imports thus remaining beholden to foreign interests over our own. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp for our military leadership?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by JTull »

Some discussion around possible revision of Mk2/MWF intakes.

http://idrw.org/tejas-mk2-iwt-model-see ... ke-design/

https://t.co/5cK6Uqu3SW
Mk2 integrated wind tunnel model seen with a different Air intake design, The Model was displayed at the 63rd Nal Foundation Day Celebrations On 5th June 2022 where DRDO chief. Dr. G Satheesh Reddy was the main guest.

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Great find JTull. Looks really nice.

IR, can you provide any inputs with regards to the intake redesign?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

Nilesh and I had wrote about this more than 3 years back.
https://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/ ... t-fighter/

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Indranil wrote:Nilesh and I had wrote about this more than 3 years back.
https://delhidefencereview.com/2019/02/ ... t-fighter/
Thank you so much IR for clarifying this. I saw the tweet and thought it was something new.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Good News...

https://twitter.com/Archit_Ch/status/15 ... 02VhKjedIw ---> HAL issues tenders regarding construction of hangars for LCA AF Mk2.

https://twitter.com/Archit_Ch/status/15 ... 02VhKjedIw ---> Tender: TENDER NOTICE/NCP/12/22-23/01

https://twitter.com/Archit_Ch/status/15 ... 02VhKjedIw ---> It is going to be built in the empty plot marked the shaded region, at ARDC HAL Bangalore, just west of ADA HQ.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/NewsIADN/status/154 ... 1VDJJ2PIXA ---> HAL has started testing of Uttam Mk2 AESA radar, meant for Tejas Mk2. The Uttam Mk2 is based on the Uttam Mk1, which will be used in the Tejas Mk1A. The Uttam Mk2 will have 965 TRM, 215 more than Mk1's 750 TRMs. The Mk2 may use GaN TRMs.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ashishvikas »

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15485849 ... ZtzvA&s=19 ---> On the aircraft front, we are looking ahead for the AMCA, LCA Mark-IA and LCA Mark -II a few years from now. The case for 114 MRFA is also progressing well. With this, it will not only strengthen the IAF but also will be a huge boost for the Indian aviation industry: IAF chief

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15485926 ... 0a4uA&s=19 ---> For AMCA, we have committed 7 squadrons. The numbers for LCA Mark-II, we will take a call on it when the first production model comes: IAF chief Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

titash wrote:India is not an OEM in the league of the US, Russia, France, or China. We have no choice but to import and supplement judiciously with indigenous stuff.

That also means that to remain a sovereign nation with an independent foreign policy we need to double down now and commit ourselves to bootstrapping our domestic MIC as a national priority. We might have to suffer for 10 or more years with equipment which is not at cutting edge but unless you commit to only use domestic MIC for your critical equipment needs you will never wean yourself away from imports thus remaining beholden to foreign interests over our own. Why is this such a difficult concept to grasp for our military leadership?
what happens after 10 years., technology is not remaining still., what India needs is the domestic mil industry that is skilled in producing solutions for future challenges., a "global" economy is interdependent not independent., even the US buys stuff from outside but goal is to remain "sanction proof" which is never a question of if but when.

F-18 is not a good idea for India but i digress, OT.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

ashishvikas wrote: https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15485926 ... 0a4uA&s=19 ---> For AMCA, we have committed 7 squadrons. The numbers for LCA Mark-II, we will take a call on it when the first production model comes: IAF chief Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari.
The Chief is getting excoriated on Twitter (& rightfully so) for this.

What sort of message is he/IAF sending to the engineers who are slogging it out to make Tejas-Mk2, when he says that "We will decide once we the product"? Where is their sense of involvement? And all the while, shilling for MRFA

Sorry to say this, but the elevation of this gent to the top post was a big mistake, that hopefully will not be repeated.

The GOI needs to make Atmanirbhar-friendliness a pre-requisite for promotions in the Armed Forces. Otherwise, this rot will continue.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by shaun »

Well the argument is we need " real " fighters not lab products .
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by konaseema »

He is just playing the cards he got well. One in hand vs 2 in the bush. Every service chief is different and we may get the next one who pledges his support to Tejas Mk2. As much as we need Tejas Mk2 in large numbers, we will also need a minimum of 4 more squadrons of MRFA. 2 events need to happen. First flight of Mk2 and Govt funding to the project. Hence we are 1 - 2 years away and till then we will have many more heartburns.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by AkshaySG »

konaseema wrote:He is just playing the cards he got well. One in hand vs 2 in the bush. Every service chief is different and we may get the next one who pledges his support to Tejas Mk2. As much as we need Tejas Mk2 in large numbers, we will also need a minimum of 4 more squadrons of MRFA. 2 events need to happen. First flight of Mk2 and Govt funding to the project. Hence we are 1 - 2 years away and till then we will have many more heartburns.
Somehow one in the hand vs 2 in the bush never applies to Desi maal.

Why isn't IAF ordering 4 more squadrons of Mk1A on emergency acquisition terms if it's "in the hand" right now as compared the still in air MRFA or prone to war related delay Russian stuff.

The "cards he got" was a Mk1A program progressing well and a Mk2 program that needs support and backing of his service but all he's giving it is shade .

Very similar to how hit pieces came against Tejas late 00's/early 2010s
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

He wants US made planes as MRFA and doesn't come out and say that.
His MRFA plan is to bring US planes into IAF.
Besides even if India orders this huge number they won't start showing up for another 8 to 10 years.
So what do we get for this 114 MRFA?
Nothing except benefits to those who ordered it.
So please dont give some rationale that IAF will be strengthened by this 114 MRFA.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

AkshaySG wrote:
konaseema wrote:He is just playing the cards he got well. One in hand vs 2 in the bush. Every service chief is different and we may get the next one who pledges his support to Tejas Mk2. As much as we need Tejas Mk2 in large numbers, we will also need a minimum of 4 more squadrons of MRFA. 2 events need to happen. First flight of Mk2 and Govt funding to the project. Hence we are 1 - 2 years away and till then we will have many more heartburns.
Somehow one in the hand vs 2 in the bush never applies to Desi maal.

Why isn't IAF ordering 4 more squadrons of Mk1A on emergency acquisition terms if it's "in the hand" right now as compared the still in air MRFA or prone to war related delay Russian stuff.

The "cards he got" was a Mk1A program progressing well and a Mk2 program that needs support and backing of his service but all he's giving it is shade .

Very similar to how hit pieces came against Tejas late 00's/early 2010s
Thankfully its reporting to PMO. If it was IAF we saw how long it took to get Mk1 IOC and FOC.
Keep changing requirements whenever its ready.
And go to press and bad mouth as three legged cheetahs.
Even when Sitaramangaru had the 83 planes costed they added a full jet engine assy plant into the cost and escalated it.
It took the new govt to get to fact-finding and remove the padding.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ashishvikas »

ashishvikas wrote: https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15485849 ... ZtzvA&s=19 ---> On the aircraft front, we are looking ahead for the AMCA, LCA Mark-IA and LCA Mark -II a few years from now. The case for 114 MRFA is also progressing well. With this, it will not only strengthen the IAF but also will be a huge boost for the Indian aviation industry: IAF chief

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15485926 ... 0a4uA&s=19 ---> For AMCA, we have committed 7 squadrons. The numbers for LCA Mark-II, we will take a call on it when the first production model comes: IAF chief Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari.
From Nitin Gokhale:

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 8q9bA&s=19 ---> So calm down everyone fretting about @IAF_MCC apparently not backing LCA MK2. Just checked and it turns out Air HQ has already committed to buy 6 squadrons of the MK2. Additional numbers to be decided after production begins. @BharatShaktiBSI @StratNewsGlobal
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by sivab »

https://twitter.com/ANI/status/15488730 ... L12f4qAAAA
Indian Air Force has already given commitment for the induction of six squadrons of Light Combat Aircraft Mark 2 fighter jets. We will decide on additional numbers once the production of these aircraft starts: IAF chief Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

So it's final, no more than 6 squadrons will be ordered by the IAF. So much for the IAF standing behind an aircraft that they got designed.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Cain Marko »

ramana wrote:He wants US made planes as MRFA and doesn't come out and say that.
His MRFA plan is to bring US planes into IAF.
Besides even if India orders this huge number they won't start showing up for another 8 to 10 years.
So what do we get for this 114 MRFA?
Nothing except benefits to those who ordered it.
So please dont give some rationale that IAF will be strengthened by this 114 MRFA.
I can understand the lusting after rafilly, but why do you think he wants US maal?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by konaseema »

We need anywhere between 10-12 squadrons of Tejas Mk2 to reach and maintain the squadron strength around the mid 30's around 2035 time frame. That said, the only way IAF is going to keep its OPEX low and still reach those numbers with single engine jets. So IAF has to wake up and smell the coffee sooner than later as China is expected to poke us with Taiwan like activities along the LAC with its jet fleet. We can't afford to scramble our Su-30 MKI's and Mig-29's. Back of the envelope calculation is 8-10 Squadrons of Mk1/A & 10-12 Squadrons of Mk2.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

8-10 Squadrons of Mk1/A
Sirji that will be the day...
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by basant »

Mk2 will take 7-10 years to mature. Even after maturing it may take 2-3 years to get the first squadron. So having a couple of Rafale squadrons is a good idea. (Had we been air force like USAF, we'd be building production standard a/c while certification is under progress.)

Clearly, the COAS was forced either (most likely) by the GoI or (less likely) by the growing hostile public opinion. Whatever could be the reason, it's good.
Last edited by basant on 18 Jul 2022 14:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

^^^^That is sad, innit....
a couple of Katrina squadrons I can understand but MRFA or what every alphabet soup we come up with...
The Air Chief and all assorted chiefs have to start thinking beyond combat capability but also about state craft....
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

Glad to see the clarification from the Chief (though it appears forced). Public pressure is mounting & even if the whip came from the PMO/RM, it must have been because they'd have seen the near-violent reaction on Twitter. The silver lining is that there are enough defense enthusiasts who are vocal enough that the PMO is taking notice.

Needless to say, its sad that the Chief grudgingly gives a "let me calm you down" order of 6 squadrons (when it should be double that number). When did he decide that number - on the fly? Is this how decisions are made? Or if it was already known, how is it that he was so non-forthcoming about it in his innumerable interviews, in each of which, he repeatedly kept pounding the 114 number for MRFA?

Clearly, the IAF doesn't think of MK2 as the backbone like we wish.

With the timelines of MK2 being the same as MRFA, with the capabilities being the same & the latter costing 2-3X, the MRFA is a non-starter. Yes, the IAF can claim that the MK2 is yet to fly. But if after the stellar performance of MK1 (as vouched for by their own pilots), they still cannot get behind the MK2 program, then there are wrong people in key positions.

It is during these times that I am beginning to realize what would have happened to people like Nambi. MK2 is 8 years away. There are forces outside & within who do not want it to succeed, who will do anything to sabotage it & who will gleefully say "I told you so". Hope our Dharma protects the people involved & defeats the asuric forces.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

Prem Kumar

The fundamental question is why...

Are we missing something in the LCA story.

Or are we accusing the Chiefs of being ignorant which means that they are not up to speed with what is happening in their own bailiwick

Or are we accusing the Chief of being less than honourable?

What is it?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ashishvikas »

Let's say, Tejas Mk2 would be made to take 10 years.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... ELblg&s=19


Impossible to have roll-out in a few months. ADA and HAL could not start manufacturing. No funds sanctioned yet for manufacturing of prototypes.

https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... eEpXw&s=19


With the IAF Chief committing to the induction of the LCA Tejas Mk2 as and when it is produced, it is time for the government to give the requisite full sanction in terms of funds for the project. Currently, it is being progressed using residual LCA FSED Phase 2/3 funds.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/154 ... J2rVA&s=19
Last edited by ashishvikas on 18 Jul 2022 14:25, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Neela »

Prem Kumar wrote:Glad to see the clarification from the Chief (though it appears forced). Public pressure is mounting & even if the whip came from the PMO/RM, it must have been because they'd have seen the near-violent reaction on Twitter. The silver lining is that there are enough defense enthusiasts who are vocal enough that the PMO is taking notice.

Needless to say, its sad that the Chief grudgingly gives a "let me calm you down" order of 6 squadrons (when it should be double that number). When did he decide that number - on the fly? Is this how decisions are made? Or if it was already known, how is it that he was so non-forthcoming about it in his innumerable interviews, in each of which, he repeatedly kept pounding the 114 number for MRFA?

Clearly, the IAF doesn't think of MK2 as the backbone like we wish.

With the timelines of MK2 being the same as MRFA, with the capabilities being the same & the latter costing 2-3X, the MRFA is a non-starter. Yes, the IAF can claim that the MK2 is yet to fly. But if after the stellar performance of MK1 (as vouched for by their own pilots), they still cannot get behind the MK2 program, then there are wrong people in key positions.

It is during these times that I am beginning to realize what would have happened to people like Nambi. MK2 is 8 years away. There are forces outside & within who do not want it to succeed, who will do anything to sabotage it & who will gleefully say "I told you so". Hope our Dharma protects the people involved & defeats the asuric forces.
Prem, you are right. Wrong people in key decisions. And thanks for elucidating the general view. The commitment to MK2 is really baffling - simply because "lack of performance data" cannot be cited. MK1 data is available. It is proven in exercises. High availability already even when further LRU improvements will reduce hangar time. Extrapolation to MK2 with lessons learned on MK1 platform can be done. So it is bordering on bizarre.

What I dont understand is why 6 squadrons. THat number has some background to the thinking of the IAF at this point.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

I am yet to dig into the details, but someone tweeted that, if 6 squadrons of MK2 is added to 6 of MRFA, everything put together makes up 42 squadrons.

Perhaps someone can do the math and confirm if this is true.
Prem Kumar
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

ks_sachin wrote:Prem Kumar

The fundamental question is why...

Are we missing something in the LCA story.

Or are we accusing the Chiefs of being ignorant which means that they are not up to speed with what is happening in their own bailiwick

Or are we accusing the Chief of being less than honourable?

What is it?
I don't know. I wouldn't cast aspersions on a serving chief without evidence. That is unfair.

But I don't have any hesitation in calling out this utter lack of support for Atmanirbhar. Maybe this is a generation that has too much baggage and unable/unwilling to let it go. This is perhaps understandable (given their personal experiences), but the nation comes first. If they are not aligned with our national aspirations, then they must be gracefully side-stepped and others put in charge, who have the right vision.
Last edited by Prem Kumar on 18 Jul 2022 14:56, edited 2 times in total.
Pratyush
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

ks_sachin wrote:Prem Kumar

The fundamental question is why...
....
What is it?
I personally think that point no 2 above is more valid.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by JTull »

I have had enough of this selective amnesia exhibited by ACM from day 1. His apathy for desi products must be more severely dealt with, than a corrigendum that's needed 4 hours after every statement. Nitin Gokhale is appealing for calm but I am livid.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

JTull wrote:I have had enough of this selective amnesia exhibited by ACM from day 1. His apathy for desi products must be more severely dealt with, than a corrigendum that's needed 4 hours after every statement. Nitin Gokhale is appealing for calm but I am livid.
Perhaps it's the IAF think tank that is feeding him his cues with the expectation of business as usual.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by basant »

At the moment there is little evidence, not even from 'informed sources', to discredit or doubt Mk2's performance/relevance. Nothing that is based on solid research/internal study/analysis which certainly the 'unnamed experts' would have referred to had it existed. Couple this with the fact that the 'perspective' changed with the CAOS makes it even more plausible that these decisions/thinking/feelings are not based on any hard research/study but on personalized opinions. In such a state, there is no necessity to give benefit of doubt to the leadership. To begin with, if someone could simply discard Mk2 for months, would also have told about the reason to dump Mk2 to have a closure. Like it happened with NLCA. At least that would have saved lots of money and effort that is about to go into Mk2 and might result in some peripheral benefits to AMCA/other projects. People might have cribbed but we would have moved on.

If Rafale class is what is really required, the Mk2 could be dumped and ORCA could be pursued TODAY. Nothing that is said and done by the COAS makes me feel that the actions are meaningful or reasonable. I could be wrong, and I'd be happy to be wrong. And I am afraid like many on BRF and elsewhere that it is not the case.

This might sound unfair to the CAOS but in reality what is happening is unfair to the tax payers who are looking at the thousands of crores of investment to be followed not by orders but by imports. Personally though, I'd be happy with more Mk1A squadrons ordered today and even 6 Mk2s sq.s later.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by LakshmanPST »

Prem Kumar wrote:I am yet to dig into the details, but someone tweeted that, if 6 squadrons of MK2 is added to 6 of MRFA, everything put together makes up 42 squadrons.

Perhaps someone can do the math and confirm if this is true.
Math goes something like this for early 2040 timeframe, by the time Su30s reach retirement age--->
13 Su30 Squadrons
2+6 Rafale + MRFA Squadrons
7 AMCA Squadrons
6 Tejas Mk1A squadrons
----
Total 34 Squadrons

That leaves 8 Squadrons which need to be filled by Tejas Mk2...
This 6 squadrons is less number... I was expecting the order to be minimum 8 squadrons
If MRFA is cancelled and we order only 2 squadrons of Rafale, then Tejas Mk2 orders will be required to go to 12 squadrons just to take the total number to 42...
-
IMO, any number below 8 squadrons for Tejas Mk2 is outrageous...
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