Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Jan 2023 20:49

ramana wrote:
fanne wrote:Pure devil's advocate - (and I still would want more MK1A rather than some phoren fighter (except Rafale - we should get 3-5 sq))
1. Mk1 and mk1a have limitations on range and payload (and size, meaning what extra features can be put into it) - they are Mig21 class fighters. Some are needed, IAF thinks 123 is sufficient, 183 maybe 60 too many.
2.Mk2 fits nicely into medium category where IAF wants most of its fighter to be in (its favorite M2K) - enough range and payload

It may not order more mk1 for the above reason. Or it could be phoren maal
The question is what about dwindling squadron numbers?
These extra 60 can make up at least three squadrons and are good enough for TSP.

Actually, Mk2 is the swing fighter as it will make up for any shortages.
So crucial to stick to its milestones.

@Ramana-ji: Bingo! Hit the nail on the head.

@Fanne: The Mk1A has the capability to execute a variety of missions that will be given to her, in partnership with other IAF assets that can sanitize the airspace she will be operating in. She is an AESA equipped fighter with a sizeable quantity of A2A and A2G munitions. The Mk1A is a not a WWII Supermarine Spitfire and I am not advocating to build numbers with, just for kicks.

To put MiG-21 Bison and Tejas Mk1A in the same sentence is an insult to the Tejas. She is leaps and bounds ahead of the Bison. Please do not mention that again

Radius of Action of Tejas Mk1 (set aside the superior Mk1A) is greater than that of Jaguar. Tejas Mk1 (again, set aside the superior Mk1A) exceeds the DPSA capability of the Jaguar. Four squadrons of the Mk1A will replace the four MiG-21 BISON squadrons in service now. An additional 4 squadrons of the Mk1A can replace the 4 Jaguar squadrons (with greater firepower capability) that are planned to be in service till the middle of the next decade. The Mk1 is better than the non-upgraded Mirage 2000H. The Mk1A will be better than even the upgraded Mirage 2000I.

Adding additional Mk1A airframes will reduce the wear and tear on the 83 that have been purchased. In addition, using the 75% PBL of the Rafale fleet, if we apply that same calculation to the 83 Mk1A fleet, there is a fleet availability of 62+ aircraft (nearly 3.5 squadrons) at any given time. Adding another 60 Mk1As to the 83 that have been purchased will increase that number to 143 airframes in total. A 75% PBL of that number, will result in a fleet of 107 aircraft (nearly six squadrons), which is almost double the number of squadrons or airworthy airframes available at any given time. And this is in a perfect world - with zero attrition - which never happens. In Balakot, we lost one MiG-21 in just a skirmish.

Over Pakistani airspace (Western Theatre), the Mk1A is absolutely perfect. See what the opposition is (J-10CE, JF-17, F-16A/B MLU and C/D Block 50/52) and see how the Mk1A can be supported by other IAF assets (Su-30MKI, Rafale, Mirage 2000I, MiG-29UPG, S-400, etc). Greater number of Mk1As deployed against Pakistan, leaves a signification portion of the fleet to turn their attention against China (Eastern Theatre). This is doable, but ego and fear of losing out on triple digit phoren MRFAs, is in the way. The opposition lives in Air HQ's head.

Just like how Naval HQ is *NOW* examining the possibility of additional Scorpenes (after wasting years over P-75I) and follow on Vikrant Class (again wasted valuable time), Air HQ will order additional Tejas Mk1As when the numbers get precariously low. Will order only in piecemeal (83 now and then 'X' later) and then have the gall to complain that the local maal is very expensive. Amazing how we operate, it truly is.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Jan 2023 20:53

V_Raman wrote:I think we are under appreciating the challenge Indian MIC is going through to have a scaled production line for LCA. IAF will take all it can get with MK1A or Mk2 - if we can scale and produce.

We have hashed through this countless times on BRF, but I will reiterate again...

Production is based on confirmed orders and *NOT* the other way around.

Lockheed Martin could churn out 30+ F-16s a month in the 1980s, because the order book was that massive.

Scaling and producing is in the customer's hands. Give a large order and then watch the scale and production.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2023 21:51

A couple of things.
1) Production facilities can't be built up without orders in a market economy.
We saw how the Soviet Union economy collapsed into a command economy.
It is unconscionable to demand production facilities without committing to orders by officers who serve two years in a post.

2) Looking at the evolution/transformation of Tejas -Mk1 - Mk1 ->>Mk2 I think the early IAF requirements were shoddy and show a lack of commitment to their Force. What prevented the IAF from requiring what gradually became the end product? It was constant change by succeeding officers. IAF needs a proper technical staff to come up with requirements, not these ad hoc Air Staff Requirements drafted by unknown folks who move on.

Bonus: They say you can take a horse to water but you can't make it drink the water.
I submit you can make it drink the water by making the horse thirsty with a long walk.

Ukraine War shows the need for numbers and indigenous products and not imports.
If this is not learned by these folks they should quit.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 27 Jan 2023 21:53

Looking forward to AI-23 for further MK2 changes, borrowing from TEDBF with reduced RCS
Wishlist
1. DSI intakes
2. nose and chine reshaping

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Jan 2023 22:03

Whats AI-23?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Jan 2023 22:05

ramana wrote:Whats AI-23?

Aero India ' 23

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 27 Jan 2023 22:15

In any case, if MK2 is delayed, IAF should (through their own free will or making them walk long and become thirsty, but do it now please) order some 60-80 mk1a more. That may lead to one more assembly line.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 28 Jan 2023 00:00

fanne wrote:In any case, if MK2 is delayed, IAF should (through their own free will or making them walk long and become thirsty, but do it now please) order some 60-80 mk1a more. That may lead to one more assembly line.

They wont.

I don’t think their doctrine for future air combat will allow it.

Purely my observation after trying to read between the lines of a couple of interviews on the Blueskies Podcast.

Those airframe design issues seem to be a bug bear. Think area ruling and its implications.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2023 09:23

MK2 won't be delayed. So let us top that line of argument.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 28 Jan 2023 14:56

I am talking about MK1 Ramana.

Mk2 we will see when in comes.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 28 Jan 2023 15:49

Apparently Biden has asked his lawmakers to help India "wean off" Russian weapons. I sincerely hope they don't offer us the F-35. If so, our entire dalal ecosystem will go into a frothy-mouthed-frenzy - we can expect a curtailed MK2 order & can kiss the AMCA goodbye

Yes, I know about the S-400 hesitation by uncle, but the closer we get to AMCA-readiness, the higher the probability that F-35 will be offered

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 28 Jan 2023 18:16

fanne wrote:~~In any case, if MK2 is delayed, IAF should (through their own free will or making them walk long and become thirsty, but do it~~ now please) order some 60-80 mk1a more. That may lead to one more assembly line.

i know wrong thread..but just edited the post

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 28 Jan 2023 22:41

Lot of rumors that F-35 is being offered. Not sure how relaiable they are

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jan 2023 23:03

F-35 is a composite plane from F-117->F-22->F-35.
It will curtail AMCA not Mk2 if bought.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 29 Jan 2023 02:50

vijayk wrote:Lot of rumors that F-35 is being offered. Not sure how relaiable they are

they ve been offering and even pushing it for a decade now. Also India is the only country they ve even offered a "version" of 22 before ..I don't think india should get into the mess...

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 29 Jan 2023 04:47

gakakkad wrote:
vijayk wrote:Lot of rumors that F-35 is being offered. Not sure how relaiable they are

they ve been offering and even pushing it for a decade now. Also India is the only country they ve even offered a "version" of 22 before ..I don't think india should get into the mess...

when did they offer F22, IDRW, Pakdef forums??F22 only exists and will exist in USAF...
i think there is some space for F35 from a capability perspective in IAF orbat as of today. F35 exists today AMCA does not. It will supposedly give a breathing space to AMCA, however from a cost perspective (overall eco system wise) i have my doubts..every penny spent on any plane outside india goes away from either of Mk1A or Mk2 or AMCA.

williams · Post by **williams** » 29 Jan 2023 05:32

ArjunPandit wrote:
gakakkad wrote:

they ve been offering and even pushing it for a decade now. Also India is the only country they ve even offered a "version" of 22 before ..I don't think india should get into the mess...
when did they offer F22, IDRW, Pakdef forums??F22 only exists and will exist in USAF...
i think there is some space for F35 from a capability perspective in IAF orbat as of today. F35 exists today AMCA does not. It will supposedly give a breathing space to AMCA, however from a cost perspective (overall eco system wise) i have my doubts..every penny spent on any plane outside india goes away from either of Mk1A or Mk2 or AMCA.

As long as we have the US considering the Pakis as a proxy to keep us strategically restrained, there is no way India will bet on US-origin offensive weapons. If the Biden admin is sincere they should have thrown the Pakis under the bus but they did not. Until then we can only have some neutral trade relationships. They want Indian money for their MIC to flourish. We want breathing space until our MIC can take over. These interests are never going to converge.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 29 Jan 2023 10:22

ks_sachin wrote:
fanne wrote:In any case, if MK2 is delayed, IAF should (through their own free will or making them walk long and become thirsty, but do it now please) order some 60-80 mk1a more. That may lead to one more assembly line.
They wont.

I don’t think their doctrine for future air combat will allow it.

Purely my observation after trying to read between the lines of a couple of interviews on the Blueskies Podcast.

Those airframe design issues seem to be a bug bear. Think area ruling and its implications.

Pure Bull ... basically a desperate clutching-at-the-straw type attempt to spring up some intelligent-looking argument, to justify IAFs pure hatred towards LCA (and any of its avatars).
And no, pointing to what was basically a hatched job of cut-paste-from-shiny-brochure of various OEMs (and that too for platforms who were on drawing boards, at that time) as the so-called ASR (innumerably changed throughout the program-life) etc, doesn't cut much ice either.
(Ditto wrt posting comments from a bunch-of-accountancy-major bean-counter authored reports)

e.g, asking for >18deg/sec of STR - why? Just because F-16s have it, is it? Then why not ITR values of F-16s (a non-delta design) - no for that we want that of a delta-platform like Mirage, isn't it?

Same with Transonic Accn, ityadi ityadi ...

Which single-platform of IAFs current single-engined platform inventory meets these ASRs, if I may ask - to that, there'll be a lot of frothing-in-the-mouth podcasts ityadi, but without a single coherent one-word answer. Simply because, there are none/nada/zilch.
Does the oh-so-lovely-and-furrin Gripen C/D platform match them (not from brochures, but via actual flight evaluation - IAF got ample chance to do so, in the prev version of the MRCA farce, before it got limited to double-engined platforms)?

And we have been thru these "clever-looking-arguments" to put-down LCA design, for decades now, here in BR ... and each of them have been thoroughly discredit here as well - so, no need of rehashing the same again.
Note, loooong back, there were a series of posts (by me, then Indranil/Shalav et all) on ITR/STR etc wrt comparo with M2K and few other platforms.

Bottom line is, no further LCA MK1As order will be there, only because the decision-making-jocks of the import-pasand force doesn't want it/abhor it - and are also afraid, that it may eat-into the mythical budget-allocation (of whatever is left after their opex expenditure including salaries/pensions) for their sweet-heart French bird. Period.
Bringing any other argument to buttress it, to sugar-coat-it, is pure bull (to put it mildly) and is a complete waste of b/w.

PS: I actually love the current ACM - atleast he's not hypocritical, unlike his predecessors, about representing IAFs pure abhorrence wrt LCA (more precisely Mk2) - much better than just mouthing-niceties all the while active pushing back (or placing as many roadblocks within their command, as possible) wrt supporting the program, just like his predecessors.

a_bharat · Post by **a_bharat** » 29 Jan 2023 11:26

I don't quite understand why the elected government is unable to exercise its legitimate authority and tell the IAF: well, we have carefully considered your view point and decided that it is in the best interest of the nation that only Indian made planes will be made available to you and you will have to do with what is available. Don't keep dragging your feet in the hope of getting imported planes as that would only compromise national security and will be considered treason.

To me, the PM and Defence Ministry needs to be held accountable first for their inability in exercising their authority. Or that, the civilian government agrees with IAF that indigenous planes are inadequate.

sanjayc · Post by **sanjayc** » 29 Jan 2023 11:47

Amazing to see generals of a country so determined to thwart any kind of independence in weapons to develop (despite the country having the capability to develop and manufacture), and deliberately keep the country dependent on imports (only for getting commissions or an immature fixation with shiny toys from the West). They are totally unconcerned about the harm they are doing by not allowing India to develop as a military power (the main pillar of which is the capability to develop one's own weapons). The Modi govt. must exert authority over Generals.

There is a long list of weapons discarded after token orders, even when they had the potential to develop into world-class systems if several iterations were allowed to develop over the years, with each version an improvement over the last.

INSAS rifle is an example. It was discarded, the next version not allowed to be developed, and generals ran to Russia to import AK-203. Why couldn't IP rights of INSAS be transferred to bharat forge and they tasked to correct the rifle's faults, modernize it and manufacture the product at its world-class factory? (If they can manufacture ATAGS, they can very well produce a piddly rifle to world-class standards). But the generals dumped everything and went for imports. Was it so important to give hard-earned Indian money to a Russian company, instead of any company in India? Looks like generals suffer from a lack of maturity and cannot see the bigger picture,

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 29 Jan 2023 13:24

maitya wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:<snip>
Pure Bull ...

Maitya I am just reporting my observations having listened to those podcasts so chill and don’t get your knickers in a twist. They dont want to order more MK1s so there!!!

Dont also have to reitrate stuff we have all gone through ad nauseam!

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 29 Jan 2023 21:20

ks_sachin wrote:
maitya wrote: <snip>
Maitya I am just reporting my observations having listened to those podcasts so chill and don’t get your knickers in a twist. They dont want to order more MK1s so there!!!

Dont also have to reitrate stuff we have all gone through ad nauseam!

No problem ks_sachinji ... actually the only reason I get my knickers in a twist, is not so much wrt IAF not ordering more MK1As etc - it's their call after all, the views/feelings of armchair-airmarshals like moi and few others etc, notwithstanding in any shape or form.
They and their MoD/GoI masters knows the best, I guess.

The twisted knickers, and will always get them in a twist, if the reason purported for that non-ordering etc, is because of some mythical shortcoming of the either aerodynamic design or the manufacturability etc etc.
Ofcourse it's ok to say, or mock at, stuff like booo-hooo these kallurams can't even get a decent turbofan to work well enough, after 3 decades of trying etc ... but never ever, because of any shortfall in aerodynamic design, or on CLAW, or Structures, or avionics or Systems Intg etc.

The sheer amount of technological "towers" mastered by my fellow-kalluram brethren, via this program, despite almost avenue explored to kill it by their own customer, is simply spell-binding and breath-taking.

So cool ...

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 30 Jan 2023 04:27

Maityaji,

The point you have made is acknowledged and I would be the last person to underplay the yeoman work done by our R&D folk. And let me add that I look forward to your posts on engines and aviation. I was sharing my observations with the forum because that particular interview with AVM Khosla irritated me to no end. So took offence to the messenger being shot.

The point you have made about the LCA, I have made about the INSAS repeatedly to many officers. Ditto for the Arjun or the ALH. I have seen these programs from inception as I was a journalist in a previous life in Bangalore. It was a time when the ALH Mk1 had not got IOC and the LCA was a static display at first Aero India!

People don't remember here the journey the LRDE has taken to making us self-reliant in radars.

However, I am just a realist and the rosy "they will order more," etc. gets my goat.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Jan 2023 16:54

Rakesh wrote:
Karan M wrote:He probably means single engine. The reporter ate up the single. Am glad to see the IAF is asking for high BVR carriage. This was the exact debate I had on BVR and I was pointing out high number of BVR rounds per mission was a necessity not an avoidable luxury.
Absolutely. I meant the comment in jest. While a sizeable BVR loadout is required in today's air combat scenario...what Boeing is displaying in the picture above is pure marketing. As I mentioned earlier, even the USAF will not send a single F-15EX into the air with 22 AAMs.

A few years back, HVT Sir had tweeted something similar to that effect. I have to find the tweet.

the USAF could actually send a single F-15EX into combat with 22 AAMs. The issue as understood by RAND Corp simulations was that the USAF lacked airframes when it came to taking on PLAAF which could field hundreds of 4th gen jets across the Taiwan Straits. F-22s, F-35s or F-15s launched from Japan or Taiwanese airbases (if they survive a rocket barrage) could be facing hundreds of jets and bombers in waves, that too hundreds of miles away from their bases..and it would be conceivable that USAF fighters would run out of BVRAAMs (given how there is no guarantee that 1 shot = 1 hit) and then would have to turn back to be reloaded at an airbase. The longer they could stay on station and fire BVRAAMs at PLAAF fighters and bombers, the more it would suit planners.

RCS and drag are other issues to be considered, but the war gaming clearly showed that USAF fighters would run out of BVRAAMs rather quickly since they would always be numerically inferior to the PLAAF.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Jan 2023 17:16

JTull wrote:Looking forward to AI-23 for further MK2 changes, borrowing from TEDBF with reduced RCS
Wishlist
1. DSI intakes
2. nose and chine reshaping

How? It has cleared CDR and prototype fabrication must've started. Adding anything at this stage will add even more time to design and clear for fabrication. Right now the goal is to get the Tejas Mk2 prototype fabricated and into first flight as soon as possible. Adding anything to scope will derail plans.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Feb 2023 00:50

I have missed out a lot here. Tejas Mk2 is happening. It took time to get the funding in place. I know it is frustrating.

VickyAvinash · Post by **VickyAvinash** » 01 Feb 2023 01:08

Indranil wrote:I have missed out a lot here. Tejas Mk2 is happening. It took time to get the funding in place. I know it is frustrating.

Welcome back Indranil. Missed your informative posts.

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 06 Feb 2023 18:56

Now that we have more official dates on 01st flight of LCA-Mk2 as 2026-27 and min. 3 years for flight testing and certification (optimistic), one would assume negotiations to start in 2031? which will obviously further delay the start of production activity and expected 01st delivery of Tejas-Mk2.

But jingos (already disappointed) would love to hear the delivery starting from early 2031. Was there any communication about contract signing to be completed before 2029?

This Aero India 2023, can we hope to get info from HAL sources on contract signing for LCA-Mk2?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 14 Feb 2023 20:24

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... x_OAgC52NA ---> DC MAWS for LCA Tejas Mk2. Five such units will be placed across LCA AF MK2 to provide 360 degree coverage.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 21 Feb 2023 21:18

Our indigenous Infrared Search and Track (IRST) for Tejas MK2 will have a similar design as that of EuroFighter Typhoon's PIRATE. Both Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS) and IRST will be placed side-by-side.

Here in the pic -
1) PIRATE 2) Eurofighter with PIRATE

https://twitter.com/Tej_Intel/status/16 ... DAUsg&s=19

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 21 Feb 2023 21:54

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... x_OAgC52NA ---> DC MAWS for LCA Tejas Mk2. Five such units will be placed across LCA AF MK2 to provide 360 degree coverage.

Is it IR or UV based? Any idea?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Feb 2023 04:11

Tejas Mark 1: Stepping stone to self-reliance
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/02/teja ... -self.html
15 Feb 2023

The LCA Mark 2 is going to be a 17.5 tonne fighter, with significantly more weapons load and fuel carriage than the 14-tonne Mark 1. The LCA Mark 2 will fly by 2024-25 and will be ready for production by 2027 said Deodhare. The drawings for the Mark 2 are ready now and manufacturing would soon commence. The Indian Air Force (IAF) is currently looking at six squadrons of the fighter. The LCA Mark 2 will be powered by the General Electric (GE) F-414 engine, which is significantly more powerful than the current F-404 engine. The F-414 was selected in a global tender in 2012, in which it beat out the Eurojet EJ-200 engine. The Mark 2 is designed around the F-414 engine.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Feb 2023 00:32

sudhan wrote:
Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... x_OAgC52NA ---> DC MAWS for LCA Tejas Mk2. Five such units will be placed across LCA AF MK2 to provide 360 degree coverage.
Is it IR or UV based? Any idea?

It is IR based

https://www.drdo.gov.in/dual-colour-mis ... r-aircraft

Dual Colour MAWS system operates in the mid IR band for identifying the approaching missiles of all generations. The spectral information of two colors is used to discriminate efficiently between sunlight reflections, background radiation and the radiation from the missile. The DCMAWS consists of a set of up to six dual color IR sensors installed on the platform, which samples the space in accordance with the defined spatial coverage and integrated with advanced processor running state-of-the-art clutter rejection and tracking algorithms to declare the oncoming missile threat with a very good false alarm rate.

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 24 Feb 2023 13:45

nachiket wrote:
sudhan wrote: Is it IR or UV based? Any idea?
It is IR based

Thanks, Nachiket.

From the specs and capabilities, there seems to be a lot of overlap between this and a top class IIR seekers on WVR missiles..

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 25 Feb 2023 23:34

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVkSvX6VMNs

So some news on MK2. this Youtube channel is legit, past news has cross-checked.

1.LCAMK2 was indeed in development from leftover funds - Fuselage and wings are fully developed
2.CCS approval that was due in 2019 Feb came in 2021 September. Covid was from Jan 2020. So perhaps govt were right in not releasing money, as it was needed elsewhere
3. Some critical components that had to be imported (for example, the ejection seat), the order could not have been given before CCS approval, as FX was involved (my guess).
4. The engines are here, fuselages are done, and many indigenous components are perhaps ready, it is waiting for some x foreign components. I would assume the order given by Dec 2021. With lead time of 1-2 years, these components would have arrived or arrive in another 6 months. The plane then will be assembled and flown.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Feb 2023 08:40

IAF must keep faith with Tejas Mk 2
https://www.deccanherald.com/opinion/ma ... 95688.html
27 Feb 2023

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Feb 2023 09:06

What is faith got to do?
Mk2 is not a religion.
It's AtmaNibhar Bharat movement.
I don't like novelists writing military stuff and preaching!

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 28 Feb 2023 11:21

The Air Chief said - https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 209_1.html

"Indian Air Force has already given commitment for the induction of six squadrons of Light Combat Aircraft Mark 2 fighter jets. We will decide on additional numbers once the production of these aircraft starts," Air Chief Marshal VR Chaudhari told ANI.

There is zero reason to justify or support this statement. And he has said the same thing about AMCA too. Neither of these programs have got funding even today. Mk2 disbursal hasn't happened yet. You cannot behave like you're buying murukku in the store. That is not how these things work. If as Air Chief he does not know how production lines and supply chains work or how % indigenisation is dependent on order quantity, all this movement geevement will stay absolutely static.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 28 Feb 2023 11:58

Agree with Prasad and what Saurav Jha says in that article. For once, an article talks about holding the IAF/MoD accountable for their initial commitment of 12 MK2 squadrons, instead of the weaseled-out 6 squadrons that they are talking about now.

Its pathetic that the MK2 funds were "allocated" but not yet released. We will bust our blood vessels if we follow our defense procurement progress. The babus who sit on files must be made to sit in the freezing cold at the LAC

IAF Chief's statement betrays a complete lack of appreciation for how economies of scale work. At his level, more is expected from him

drnayar · Post by **drnayar** » 28 Feb 2023 13:24

ArjunPandit wrote:
gakakkad wrote:

they ve been offering and even pushing it for a decade now. Also India is the only country they ve even offered a "version" of 22 before ..I don't think india should get into the mess...
when did they offer F22, IDRW, Pakdef forums??F22 only exists and will exist in USAF...
i .

There is specifically an American law banning exports of F22