Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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nachiket
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by nachiket »

Cain Marko wrote: Second that. From his pissing on the arjun to his latest celebration at CDS' demise, this dude is.......(fill in the blank)
Shook-law had done a similar about-turn on the Arjun earlier. He seems to be doing that for the LCA now. Anyway the Tejas does not need his help.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by vipins »

Link
LCA-MK2 roll out by year end or early 2023
The design for LCA MK-2, a much bigger aircraft, has been frozen and some of the manufacturing activities have started. Hopefully by this year end or early 2023 we should have the first roll out of the aircraft, and one year after that it will be taking to the skies, Mr. Madhavan said. “We are targeting early 2023 but we should be able to do it slightly early.”
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by bharathp »

from the same link:
Hopefully by this year end or early 2023 we should have the first roll out of the aircraft, and one year after that it will be taking to the skies, Mr. Madhavan said. “We are targeting early 2023 but we should be able to do it slightly early.”
the delays have started. HAL maintianed the roll out by aug 2022, it then moved to "later in 2022" and now "targeting early 2023".
this is exactly what creates a trust deficit.
how many times have we seen this? is there a post op/post mortem by some auditing agency on why the delays have happened/keep happening and a way to keep learning from them?
could be all due to COVID for all we know, but still - it would have been a lot more confidence boost if HAL stuck to the timelines.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Many reasons for timelines to move ahead. Right now, all we can do is hope that the new deadline is met.

I added that bit in the first post of this thread. Reposting here, so folks don't have to go back to the first post to see.

Milestones Achieved
• Air Marshal Narmdeshwar Tiwari, the Deputy Chief of Air Staff (DCAS) of the Indian Air Force, accepted the Comprehensive Design Review (CDR) of the Tejas Mk2 on 15 November 2021.
• R. Madhavan - Chief Managing Director of HAL - in an interview dated January 2022, stated that the design for the Tejas Mk2 has been frozen and some of the manufacturing activities have started.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ArjunPandit »

Haridas wrote: Most have forgotten Ajai Shukla sustained vitriol against LCA Tejas at behest of lifafa from Chandigarh mafia lobby.
Exemplary Presstitutes.
ot but seems like shookla ji living on HAL sapoota juice these days instead of his old single malt...at least better than parveen swamy
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

I am not really bothered about the a delay of a few months. I will be bothered about the delay turing into several years.

The MK1A has given enough cushion to tide over any potential delays in MK2.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by bharathp »

it went from aug 2022 to "early 2023" now.. if they add another few months, it will be 1 year of delay.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

They have not delayed. Aug22 was and continues to be the roll-out date. 6-8 months from rollout to first flight is typical.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Indranil wrote:They have not delayed. Aug22 was and continues to be the roll-out date. 6-8 months from rollout to first flight is typical.
That settles the issue. Thanks IR.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by bharathp »

Indranil wrote:They have not delayed. Aug22 was and continues to be the roll-out date. 6-8 months from rollout to first flight is typical.
this!!!. am looking forward to aug 15 2022. already asked for a day off from office. i ll have a few coconuts ready.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by LakshmanPST »

Indranil wrote:They have not delayed. Aug22 was and continues to be the roll-out date. 6-8 months from rollout to first flight is typical.
But in the news item, Madhavan Sir specifically mentions roll out date as early 2023...
Is it a case of misquoting by media...?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 63147?s=20 ---> Tejas Mk2: The Pride & Future of Indian Air Force to be delivered by HAL. An article by Udit Tripathi @i_udit_t written for @AirPowerAsia
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by asbchakri »

ramana wrote: https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 63147?s=20 ---> Tejas Mk2: The Pride & Future of Indian Air Force to be delivered by HAL. An article by Udit Tripathi @i_udit_t written for @AirPowerAsia
Well I think this will put to rest all the worries that MK2 will not be inducted or the IAF will move directly to AMCA as it was not mentioned by the Air chief in any of his interviews :)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

It doesn't put to rest anything. This was an opinion piece written in 2021 when the CDR was in progress. Its complete now. Its the author's own opinion piece. Nowhere has the current IAF Chief said anything about 7 MK2 squadrons - the article quotes no references.

What gives me hope is that PM Modi is personally involved in ensuring Atmanirbharta in Defence. Hence I am looking forward to the MRFA getting shot down.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/sarthak_asm/status/ ... 39112?s=20 ---> Do you have any info on IRST for Tejas Mk2?

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 83459?s=20 ---> IRST sanctioned in May 2019. Induction somewhere in 2021. That was the plan, may get delayed. So in next year or two we will see indigenous IRST.

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Vicky »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/sarthak_asm/status/ ... 39112?s=20 ---> Do you have any info on IRST for Tejas Mk2?

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 83459?s=20 ---> IRST sanctioned in May 2019. Induction somewhere in 2021. That was the plan, may get delayed. So in next year or two we will see indigenous IRST.
In full fledged development by IRDE in-house. Two years away from flight testing as per recent tenders with fully electronic sensor, associated signal processors and compute units.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheAvenger82/status ... COABWA6xIg ---> ADA to ask for more funds from MOD to built 3rd and 4th pre production units of Tejas Mk 2. Already the delivery of 8 GE F-414 engines has been completed.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

After a long absence, HVT Sir is talking (cryptically) about Mk2 again :)

https://twitter.com/BullyStark/status/1 ... AGgFVhvT9Q ---> Sir any idea about Kaveri engine? And will Tejas Mk2 will have Kaveri Engine? Can't wait to see our own indigenous aircraft engine.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf_/status/1488 ... AGgFVhvT9Q ---> Indigenous aircraft will be there. Indigenous Engines may take much longer. Mk2 engines are already procured.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by nachiket »

Nothing cryptic. He's just saying that Mk2 will not have indigenous engines. It will use the F414. We knew that already.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Is he confident of the timeline for the domestic sourced engine for the post Mk2 efforts?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by jaysimha »

TEJAS MK-2 TO HAVE GE TURBOFANS, AMCA TO HAVE INDIGENOUSLY DEVELOPED HIGH THRUST ENGINE SAYS DRDO CHIEF
TUESDAY, MARCH 15, 2022 BY INDIAN DEFENCE NEWS
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2022/03 ... ca-to.html
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Barath »

Pratyush wrote:Is he confident of the timeline for the domestic sourced engine for the post Mk2 efforts?
We are discussing AMCA Mk2 JV engine and the formal tie up has not even been signed. Hold your horses. HVT isn't the engine designer or project manager.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheAvenger82/status ... llWobY_aNw ---> Report: Astra microwave has delivered an upgraded version of UTTAM AESA radar to LRDE for integration onto the Tejas Mk 2 aircraft. It has more densely packed TR Modules, which paves way for integration of more electronics in the nose cone of the aircraft like IRST.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... llWobY_aNw ---> Astra Microwave Delivers Uttam Mk2 Radar To LRDE. The private sector firm Astra microwave has completed the fabrication of UTTAM Mk2 AESAR and has delivered it to DRDO's electronics and radar development establishment (ERDS) that will be integrated on the LSP Tejas Mk1A.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... llWobY_aNw ---> The system will be used as a test bed for the Tejas Mk 2 program. The radar will have 968 TR modules and this increased number of modules and channels will provide a capability to track and increased number of targets and will have increased detection range. Info from @DENZEL2510 and renders by @Kuntal__biswas

Image

Image

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by fanne »

quick question - why not this be used in MK1A, why use Uttam version 1.0? The first 20 is 2052, from 40th LCAMK1A it is Uttam. This is at least 3-4 years away from delivery. Maybe there can be space for a small (Rafale sized) - Optronics?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by bharathp »

my limited noob knowledge says -
mk1A will feture currently tested + optimised uttam

testing for the new uttam will be done to be ready for Mk2 and maybe installed into Mk1As (when the testing for upgraded uttam is complete).
also possibility that Mk2 has a slightly different nose cone shape (i believe it was slightly smaller if memory serves right)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by titash »

fanne wrote:quick question - why not this be used in MK1A, why use Uttam version 1.0? The first 20 is 2052, from 40th LCAMK1A it is Uttam. This is at least 3-4 years away from delivery. Maybe there can be space for a small (Rafale sized) - Optronics?
The maturity curve for the Uttam Mk1 is 5 years ahead of the maturity curve for Uttam Mk2

As part of a product lifecycle, at some point you have to put version 1.0 (i.e. MVP) of the hardware product(s) into the marketplace + field, to collect user feedback & maintenance feedback

R&D for version 2.0 (MVP++) is great but version 1.0 (MVP) has to be deployed and actually work in real-life for purposes of operational feedback

At any point, you will see a mixed Uttam fleet in the IAF for the next 30 years for purposes of mass-obsolescence management, rolling upgrades, etc.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by fanne »

Sorry for again pushing the same line of argument/thought -
The major change in between MK1 and MK2 UTTAM is in the more dense packing and required ability to cool the system. It is made from same GAAS foundry (unless, hush hush we have a better chip for mk2, in that case, most of my argument have no meaning), all nodes (software) that works for MK1 should easily with little effort work for mk2 (and we have additional 2-3 years to fine tune it). I can only see one limitation - F404 maynot be able to power the whole MK2 as efficiently as the F 414. But if it can, then, either we can have more TR module (as LCAMK1A has bigger nose cone than LCAMK2,) for better range or have a IRST installed in MK1A itself (giving it capability against LO targets - it can surely take a bigger MK2 Uttam or same size Uttam with the same IRST).
Of course, there are all these assumptions - UTTAM MK2 is not much different from mk1 and we have IRST available now. The last thing needed is more delay in MK1A.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Cybaru »

Won't they have to retest the weight distribution if there is a difference between the two radars @fanne? How much more testing will that require? For what gain? I think Mk2 will get this from start, which is great!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by srin »

Is the nose diameter of Mk1A and Mk2 the same?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by fanne »

Mk1a nose is bigger than Mk2, that's why mk1a can accommodate in its nose whatever MK2 can accommodate. Weight distribution and hence degree of instability may be one reason to not do it. I guess, my take, Uttam MK1 has been in testing for last 2-3 years, and in development for many many years. We got some ToT for ELTA-2052, that changed the pace of development exceptionally fast. Plus in last few months (i.e. less than a year), the tech advancement WITHIN India with respect to AESA radar (we are adding AESA radar to AAM seeker, which has to be compact, energy efficient and all that) has been very very fast. Even 1-2 years before, the Tejas MK1A team would not have figured out that while we complete the development of of Uttam MK1, a far superior Uttam MK2 would be almost simultaneously (a very loose use of simultaneously) be available. I won't be surprised when I hear the team is going ahead with Uttam Mk2 and IRST in Tejas MK1A itself some 5-6 months down the line. The only frozen but can be changed, (though somewhat delaying the MK1A) is the cockpit layout. They can have Gripen like cockpit even now. They have 1-2 years before MK1A goes on the rig. The only bummer is they would have already finalized many of these contracts. But if the same companies have to deliver these components, but maybe for a better configuration, it is doable....it will really need a very dynamic PM to do all of that.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Cybaru »

I think we are falling to the same issues that IAF does when it compares specs on paper and forgets it needs planes now. In most cases, if you change 1 item, you may have a cascading effect on other components and it is prudent to stop when you get to "good enough" and push things out for next iteration like it is done here. We will see Indian Industry deliver newer versions at good speed now. All this can be fixed during a retrofit 10-12 years after operational experience. Plus it may change the cost of the contract, means more negotiations etc.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by souravB »

fanne wrote: --snip--
I can only see one limitation - F404 maynot be able to power the whole MK2 as efficiently as the F 414.
--snip--
In addition to this, more TRM requires more cooling increasing again power and space requirement. Tejas Mk1 may not have such overhead. So though Mk1 nose cone dia is larger than Mk2, we may not see increased TRM in Uttam Mk1 for quite a while unless LRDE can tackle these issues. Indranil has a great thread about it in Twitter.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by basant »

Mk1 has larger cone as it was probably a requirement for the original MMR based performance. For ground-up AESA requirement, the nose cone could be optimized as in the case of Mk2.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

srin wrote:Is the nose diameter of Mk1A and Mk2 the same?
Actually, the nose diameter of the Mk1A and Mk2 are relatively similar. The radome of the Mk2 is smaller. The volume of the nose in Mk2 behind the radome is used for the IRST and other LRUs.

Mk1's nose
Image
Mk2's nose
Image
Mk1's nose overlaid on Mk2's nose. They are scaled such that the radome attachment points are in the ratio of 883/809.
Image

Some of you might find the following thread interesting:
https://twitter.com/indrani1_roy/status ... 7637420033
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

https://twitter.com/astramwp/status/1521690794092281856


In last few days there are many videos and news articles on various social media platforms starting that Astra Microwave has delivered improved variant of Uttam AESA Radar to DRDO. This is not issued by Astra Microwave and we don't approve this article.
@drdo
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

^^^

Interesting.

A fishing expedition from interested parties??
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by basant »

Indranil wrote:Some of you might find the following thread interesting:
...
https://twitter.com/indrani1_roy/status ... 7637420033
Thanks IR. I was reading your article on DDR and I am curious about some parameters listed in Table 1. Comparing Gripen E and Mk2, Tejas has 7.4 m2 higher wing area,1 ton lesser empty weight, holds 100 kg lesser internal fuel, has 1 ton higher MTOW, (almost) same engine, but just 500 kg higher payload with 500 km lesser ferry range. Even if ferry range is a brochure figure, I can't understand how only 500 kg higher payload is realized given similar delta wing design. Can you tell what might be the reason(s) for this?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

Pratyush wrote:^^^

Interesting.

A fishing expedition from interested parties??
yes, Israel is the likely one
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

basant wrote:
Indranil wrote:Some of you might find the following thread interesting:
...
https://twitter.com/indrani1_roy/status ... 7637420033
Thanks IR. I was reading your article on DDR and I am curious about some parameters listed in Table 1. Comparing Gripen E and Mk2, Tejas has 7.4 m2 higher wing area,1 ton lesser empty weight, holds 100 kg lesser internal fuel, has 1 ton higher MTOW, (almost) same engine, but just 500 kg higher payload with 500 km lesser ferry range. Even if ferry range is a brochure figure, I can't understand how only 500 kg higher payload is realized given similar delta wing design. Can you tell what might be the reason(s) for this?
All these payload numbers are ridiculous.

1. Think of it this way. An aircraft weighs 8 tons empty, with an MTOW weight of 16.5 tons, with payload of 7.2 tons. This means it takes off with pilot +internal fuel of 1.3 tons! Internal fuel capacity is 3.4 tons. Why would anybody do that?!!!
2. Even with Mk2. Aircraft will* weigh ~8 tons empty, MTOW is 17.5 tons, with 6.5 tons payload. This means it takes off with pilot + fuel weight off 3 tons! Saving grace is that this is slightly less ridiculous.
3. With so much payload, the first thing a pilot would want is to top off his internal fuel. So the clean TOW in both cases is going to be close to 11.5 tons. The rest of the MTOW can be payload.
4. Also take all these 6.5 -7.2 tons of payload on a light fighter with some salt. These look good on brochures. Has continued from Mirage 2000 onwards, but will never if ever be used. Imagine a Mirage/Mk2/Gripen take off with almost the max payload of a Su-30! How will they fight? In combat, most light fighters will carry 2.5 tons of armament + 2.5 tons of fuel in DTs. At max.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Basant Saar, not directed at you.

Always good to have a reality dose from IR every now and then. Makes unclear issues very lucid. Too bad you don't contribute more on the forum.
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