Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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basant
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by basant »

Indranil wrote:
basant wrote: All these payload numbers are ridiculous.
...
Admiral, no sir for me please!

Thanks IR, it's very informative. Continuing the legacy of M2K, then Rafale lifting 9.5t also should be taken with salt to taste then? Guess these are bomb truck figures. :)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

Rakesh wrote: Always good to have a reality dose from IR every now and then. Makes unclear issues very lucid. Too bad you don't contribute more on the forum.
Don't worry. My heart and loyalty lie here.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

Indranil, If we were to say the Tejas Mk2 can replace M2ks, Jaguar, and the Mig-29s how accurate would that be? And what size fleet are we looking at?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:And what size fleet are we looking at?
13 Su-30MKI squadrons + 2 Rafale squadrons + 4 Tejas Mk1A squadrons + 2 Tejas Mk1 squadrons is all that will remain next decade. That is 21 squadrons. 114 MRFA at 18 aircraft each is 6+ units. That will bring it up to 27 units. No where close to the 42 units that the IAF is looking to achieve.

Three MiG-29UPG squadrons, three Mirage 2000 squadrons and 4 - 5 Jaguar squadrons are active now, but they will all retire in the 2030s. That is ~ 10 squadrons in all. My calculations say an order book of 200 (10 squadrons) as a one-to-one unit replacement. Even with 114 MRFA, the IAF will still be woefully short of units. The Tejas Mk2 is absolutely vital for the IAF, but they are only focused on 114 MRFA and the mythical AMCA.
ramana wrote:Indranil, If we were to say the Tejas Mk2 can replace M2ks, Jaguar, and the Mig-29s how accurate would that be?
Ramana-ji, not IR....but what you are saying is accurate IMVHO. And as per HVT Sir (former Jaguar pilot), the Mk1 already exceeds the Jaguar. See below. The Mk1A will be even better and the Tejas Mk2 will be in another league altogether.

====================================

Tweets below from Group Captain Harsh Vardhan Thakur (Retd) - Test Pilot, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/11760 ... 87329?s=20 ---> As it's already a widely acknowledged fact, Jaguar has a significant Radius of Action (RoA). It's noteworthy that Tejas is even better.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/11745 ... 03744?s=20 ---> For weapon trials, Tejas goes from Bangalore to Jaisalmer direct. Even Jaguars can't do that. So whatever the combat radius, it's pretty good.

https://twitter.com/drukkk/status/12202 ... 48640?s=20 ---> Can you throw some light on Tejas low flying ability? Can it take up DPSA role of Jaguar? Is its delta wing versatile enough for Jaguar type, long range, low level flying (with external fuel tanks of course)?
***Answer for above tweet is below***
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12203 ... 58113?s=20 ---> Yes, I think no problem in that. Tejas can exceed Jaguars.

https://twitter.com/JaidevJamwal/status ... 71488?s=20 ---> Everything else remaining same, do you think that Tejas can have same effect on target as Jaguar, better or worse?
***Answer for above tweet is below***
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12205 ... 10560?s=20 ---> Yes. Same or Better.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

So a fleet of 200+114 Mk2 should do the trick.
Because add the 123 Mk1 and Mk1A.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prasad »

The question is not what will bring the numbers back up but the costs involved. Buying Mark2 will plough a solid chunk of that money back into indian industry straightaway and thereafter for fleet sustenance. Buying an F16 or Gripen will not. 80 Rafales cost UAE $19bn. MoF will have a heart attack before approving such a deal.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

ramana wrote:So a fleet of 200+114 Mk2 should do the trick.
Because add the 123 Mk1 and Mk1A.
So (200+123+114)/18 = 24.3 Sqns (of Tejas Mk1,1A, & MWF) + 13 SU30MKI + 2 Rafale ==> totals up to 39 Sqns. (not counting standoff armed Hawks)

Add AMCA, CATS Warrior, the UAV/UCAV and new gen more extensive Radar ADGE, Akash variants, BrahMOS and S300 that is much more than what IAF asked for in 1972.

Times have changed since the last 50 years, warfare is changed, yet IAF has stuck to 42 Sqn need with bombers and dumb bombs that is totally untenable now and in future, with precision weapons at standoff range SAAW, Hammer etc etc.

If IAF had its way it would continue to fight war with only imported aircrafts, missiles and warheads.

Anyway the Air assets will be integrated/absorbed into Theater command comprising IBGs. Need for separate Air Force will go away, perhaps relegated to USAF style strategic air command.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Prasad wrote:The question is not what will bring the numbers back up but the costs involved. Buying Mark2 will plough a solid chunk of that money back into indian industry straightaway and thereafter for fleet sustenance. Buying an F16 or Gripen will not. 80 Rafales cost UAE $19bn. MoF will have a heart attack before approving such a deal.
But they will and that is the tragedy of this story. Money is miraculously found for phoren maal, but the same old tired excuse of Dekho No Money is given for local maal. They will induct a 4th++ generation phoren fighter and state that it will be more than enough to take on J-20 and J-31. But they will not induct a 4th++ generation local fighter, because the excuse will be...we need VLO platforms. Tejas Mk2 is too late.

They will do piecemeal orders of 40 Mk1s and 83 Mk1As and then complain that HAL is delivering aircraft at an abysmal rate. But they will gladly scour the globe for 114 phoren fighters, because there is a squadron shortage after all! Another two squadrons worth of Rafales and call it a day. The tragedy with the 114 order is not just the upfront cost of the deal, but the annual OPEX of this fleet + the upgrades in the future. If the Mirage 2000 upgrade was expensive, a future Rafale F5 upgrade will be astronomical. Ordering and sustaining any other phoren fighter will be as expensive as the Rafale.

Order a couple more units of the Mk1A and then go all in with the Tejas Mk2. Minimum order of 200 Tejas Mk2s with 40 Tejas SPORT to serve as trainers. The boost to Indian aviation industry will be huge. The money will be invested right back into the country.

I know you will get the gist of this tweet :mrgreen:

https://twitter.com/Kuntal__biswas/stat ... ReRJhjDhGA ---> Samajh rahe ho ! Samajh rahe ho aap !!

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

what a beauty 8)

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by V_Raman »

What is this - TEDBF?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

V_Raman wrote:What is this - TEDBF?
Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7791
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by V_Raman »

got it. why are the pictures in MK2 thread?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

V_Raman wrote:got it. why are the pictures in MK2 thread?
Because they are not TEDBF. Click on the tweet link :)

Those pictures above, depicting a twin engine Tejas-type fighter is not TEDBF.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by V_Raman »

ah ok. i am now drooling for a TE-Mk2 :-)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

V_Raman wrote:ah ok. i am now drooling for a TE-Mk2 :-)
Sirjee, this is very possible, if the IAF plays her cards right.

Air HQ can get what they want from the 114 MRFA contest ---> a twin engine, 4th++ generation, multirole, hot rod fighter in triple digits and without an American turbofan.

They have to think creatively and the last part (turbofan) is also available today. 100% doable, will arrive in the same time as the first batch of locally built 114 MRFA (late 2020s) and I say this without *ANY* jingoism.

Will tie beautifully into the current Air Chief's khayali pulao (white unicorn with wings) ---> Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

ramana wrote:Indranil, If we were to say the Tejas Mk2 can replace M2ks, Jaguar, and the Mig-29s how accurate would that be? And what size fleet are we looking at?
Tejas Mk2 is a much more advanced fighter than M2ks and Jaguars. IAF wants to maintain numbers. So 1 for 1 replacement is easy to see.

The Mk2 is more advanced than the Mig29 UPGs in every way imaginable. However, the 60% more power does buy the Mig29 some dog-fighting capabilities which the Mk2 will not have.

200 Mk2s as replacements for the M2k, Jaguars and Mig-29s makes inherent sense. Problem is manufacturing sanction is still awaited!!!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

200 Tejas Mk2s will be cheaper than 114 phoren MRFA. More airframes for lesser cost, unit wise.

Most of the money invested in the contract will circulate within the country.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Indranil wrote:Problem is manufacturing sanction is still awaited!!!
Exactly. For this to work, the funds have to be sanctioned and the Air HQ has to place an order like NOW. Both go hand-in-hand.

Air HQ has two optimal dates coming up - 08 Oct 2022 (Air Force Day) or Aero India 2023 - to make such an announcement. Snuff the life out of the 114 MRFA contest. If the funds are not sanctioned, nothing will happen.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by bala »

Would it make sense to acquire y x (# of Tejas MK2) 414 engines from GE; where y is the number required for replacements over say 20 yrs until India gets its GTRE engine into production. This way India becomes sanction proof and can manage the fleet for a period of time. Of course it requires a sum of money up front to be spent. This is a technique followed by some companies who need some component but are unsure whether the supplying company would exist down the road. They buy up enough and put it into their warehouse.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

Indranil wrote:
ramana wrote:Indranil, If we were to say the Tejas Mk2 can replace M2ks, Jaguar, and the Mig-29s how accurate would that be? And what size fleet are we looking at?
Tejas Mk2 is a much more advanced fighter than M2ks and Jaguars. IAF wants to maintain numbers. So 1 for 1 replacement is easy to see.

The Mk2 is more advanced than the Mig29 UPGs in every way imaginable. However, the 60% more power does buy the Mig29 some dog-fighting capabilities which the Mk2 will not have.

200 Mk2s as replacements for the M2k, Jaguars and Mig-29s makes inherent sense. Problem is manufacturing sanction is still awaited!!!
I have a feeling once ORCA/ TEDBF comes for the Navy, the Airforce will also ask for its version, that can be better in TWR than the Mig 29
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by VenkataS »

Order TEDBF and MK2 now and sanction proof the airforce for the future. You cannot be a truly sovereign nation until you design and manufacture a majority of your critical defense equipment.

Apart from HAL who would be the main supplier, develop a couple of other private Indian companies as well as suppliers. We need Indian companies akin to Dassault, Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Incubate and support them now so that they would be ready to compete on their own 15 years from now.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

Forget ORCA for that is Yet Another Fighter Plane(YAFP) for IAF.

So if the development models come up to expectations the only constraint will be the production capability.

So what rates the 200 planes should be made to match the draw down?
24/year surge capability and even it to 16/year in the out years?

VenkataS I hope TEDBF will be more than 57 planes and be double that (2x57=114) to ensure squadrons have shore time and deploy on three carriers.
Goa, Vizag, and another.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ks_sachin »

VenkataS wrote:Order TEDBF and MK2 now and sanction proof the airforce for the future. You cannot be a truly sovereign nation until you design and manufacture a majority of your critical defense equipment.

Apart from HAL who would be the main supplier, develop a couple of other private Indian companies as well as suppliers. We need Indian companies akin to Dassault, Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Incubate and support them now so that they would be ready to compete on their own 15 years from now.
Engines?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

Dont worry.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Roop »

Indranil wrote:However, the 60% more power does buy the Mig29 some dog-fighting capabilities which the Mk2 will not have.
Does dog-fighting even matter any more, these days? (This is a serious question, I'm not trying to be funny).
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

Yes. That's how WingCo Abhinandan shot-down the F16. All the BVR shots from F-16s in that engagement failed.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Roop wrote:Does dog-fighting even matter any more, these days? (This is a serious question, I'm not trying to be funny).
In addition to what Prem Kumar said, in South Asia (applies to India and Pakistan) the proximity of airbases across the border (relative to flight) makes WVR combat very likely. Against China, it will largely be BVR combat. The IAF is replacing her stock of CCMs with the AIM-132 ASRAAM. The Jaguar and Tejas fleets will have it. The Mirage 2000 and Rafale fleets have the MICA. The Rambha fleet will still use Russian CCMs, unless IAF engineers do their famous desi-jugaad and get the AIM-132 and Bars radar to talk to each other. In the BVR arena, the Rambha will use a number of Astra variants, the Rafale has the Meteor, the Tejas has the I-Derby ER. But WVR combat is still relevant between India and Pakistan.

An air force that is not properly trained in BVR combat (as the PAF amply proved on 27 Feb 2019) makes the odds of the WVR combat even greater. I pity Raytheon which the PAF thoroughly humiliated on that day. The AMRAAM is the premier BVR air-to-air missile used by western air forces the world over. Its success is well proven. The PAF ruined that decades-built reputation in a few minutes. Five AMRAAMs were launched against a pair of Su-30MKIs. Not a single one hit. Equally humiliating was the fact that Abhinandan was able to get visual confirmation of a twin seater F-16 and then launched his R-73. Clearly indicates that the PAF was not properly trained on BVR combat. Why he was allowed to get that close when they had a longer range missile? Training on BVR engagements requires a lot of flight hours, which the PAF simply cannot afford to do.

So WVR it is for them. And the IAF will rout them in that arena as well.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:So what rates the 200 planes should be made to match the draw down?
24/year surge capability and even it to 16/year in the out years?
An order book of 200+ can translate into 24/year build capacity. That will take around 8 years to complete. Even the delivery timeframe is quicker than 114 MRFA :mrgreen:

All the Tier 1 and Tier 2 suppliers (Dynamtic Tech, VEM Tech, Alpha Tocol, Larsen & Toubro and NAL) will ramp up their production to meet the demand. HAL will only be doing final integration of all the parts, as they are doing now on the Tejas Mk1 and will be doing on the Mk1A. But as IR said, you have to sanction the funds. No sanctioning the funds and then there will be no order.

The Tejas Mk2 is not an insurmountable/unobtanium program that cannot be accomplished. It is well within our grasp. To be very honest and blunt, the 114 MRFA contest has lesser political odds of achieving fruition than an order of 200+ Tejas Mk2s.

Place this order now and all the political opposition will fall like a deck of cards.

Jobs for HAL? Check. Opportunity for Anil Ambani? None/Nyet
Revenue/Income/Profit for HAL? Check. Money for Anil Ambani? Zero
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

India's *ONLY* viable multi-mission 4th++ generation fighter aircraft, in triple digits, bar none.

https://twitter.com/BlackIAdder/status/ ... 8g9lpNPt5Q ---> Tejas Mk2 onwards as well.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Indranil »

Roop wrote:
Indranil wrote:However, the 60% more power does buy the Mig29 some dog-fighting capabilities which the Mk2 will not have.
Does dog-fighting even matter any more, these days? (This is a serious question, I'm not trying to be funny).
When all aircrafts are BVR capable, then the fights will end in WVR.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Indranil wrote:When all aircrafts are BVR capable, then the fights will end in WVR.
:lol:
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by VenkataS »

ramana wrote: VenkataS I hope TEDBF will be more than 57 planes and be double that (2x57=114) to ensure squadrons have shore time and deploy on three carriers.
Goa, Vizag, and another.
With respect to TEDBF for a 3 carrier force we would need (30 + 30 + 40) planes assuming the third one is a little bigger + 40 for reserves/maintenance/attrition. That is at least 140 planes.
We need to think and plan at a greater scale because we would be able to afford all this pretty soon. India as a $5 Trillion dollar economy in 2026 should have around $125 B as its defense budget.

What these past few months have shown is that it would be impossible to build surge capability on demand. All the available equipment that would be needed should be available, deployed and put through the paces before any conflict. It is always better to be prepared.

ks_sachin - For whatever reason we have been unsuccessful with respect to engines until now. We would have to rely on foreign suppliers there until our domestic MIL is able to design and build state of the art engines. But yes we would need to invest and build necessary infrastructure including test infrastructure to be able to design and test our engines locally. It is inexcusable that we have to rely on foreign companies/infra to test our domestically designed engines.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by John »

Indranil wrote:
Roop wrote: Does dog-fighting even matter any more, these days? (This is a serious question, I'm not trying to be funny).
When all aircrafts are BVR capable, then the fights will end in WVR.
When there is inproper SEAD and both sides have long range air defense systems it could end up in close dog fights at low altitudes as both sides cannot afford to fly high or risk getting shot down.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Haridas »

One should also think beyond just Aircraft & air launched missiles, specially w.r.t :

1. X-Band Stealth manned & unmanned fighter (including loyal wingman type UCAV)
2. L,S,C band Stealth manned & unmanned fighter (including loyal wingman type UCAV)
2. Multi-static radar network based SAM guidance/cueing
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Prem Kumar »

Another factor which will result in WVR contact is the terrain. In the mountainous regions across LoC and LAC, a low-flying fighter can appear out of nowhere and take the enemy by surprise. Even AWACS won't be of much help
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

Prem Kumar wrote:Another factor which will result in WVR contact is the terrain. In the mountainous regions across LoC and LAC, a low-flying fighter can appear out of nowhere and take the enemy by surprise. Even AWACS won't be of much help
Like 27-Feb-19, with numerical Advantage, lots of AEW - a 100 plus million dollar F16D was taken out by a MIg 21 Bison suddenly appearing from behind the Pir Panjal Mountains?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by SinghS »

Aditya_V wrote:
Prem Kumar wrote:Another factor which will result in WVR contact is the terrain. In the mountainous regions across LoC and LAC, a low-flying fighter can appear out of nowhere and take the enemy by surprise. Even AWACS won't be of much help
Like 27-Feb-19, with numerical Advantage, lots of AEW - a 100 plus million dollar F16D was taken out by a MIg 21 Bison suddenly appearing from behind the Pir Panjal Mountains?
Coming to WVR, does Tejas MK-2 have integral gun or only podded gun is planned? What would the pilot do in WVR if missiles are finished and gun is not available?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Sad day when we jingos have to wait with bated breath when this Air Chief talks about the Tejas Mk2. See below. Waiting for the full interview to come out, to see what exactly he said about the Tejas Mk2. Kudos to Dr Sanjay Badri-Maharaj who asked the question to Nitin Gokhale.

https://twitter.com/BharatShaktiBSI/sta ... exIbzXQM4g ---> Editor-in-Chief @nitingokhale just recorded ACM VR Chaudhari’s first proper interview after he took over as Chief of Air Staff @IAF_MCC in September 2021. Coming soon.

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... exIbzXQM4g ---> From lessons learnt in Ladakh standoff to plans for augmenting IAF’s fighter fleet, several important points in this short but crisp chat.

https://twitter.com/Sbmvv2000/status/15 ... exIbzXQM4g ---> Did he ever mention the Tejas Mk2?

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... exIbzXQM4g ---> Yes.

https://twitter.com/Sbmvv2000/status/15 ... exIbzXQM4g ---> Fantastic...we were all worried about the IAF's seeming lack of interest in it (Mk1A and then onto AMCA without Mk 2).

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ashishvikas »

^^Full interview Sir.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

ashishvikas wrote:^^Full interview Sir.
I was searching and found it on twitter! :) But you beat me to it.

Nothing too satisfying. Just a one-liner apparently (see below)....will watch the entire interview now.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15247 ... exIbzXQM4g ---> "The IAF will augment its fighter fleet through the LCA Mk I, the AMCA, LCA Mk II in the interim and the combat jets...": Chief of the Air Staff. Brilliant interview. Very precise. Thank you @nitingokhale
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