Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

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brar_w
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by brar_w »

The MOD/IAF inked a contract for 83 MK1As just this calendar year. This is more than 2 times the number of aircraft that they ordered from Dassault. So there shouldn't be any doubt that they do not want to operate the Tejas in quantity, and in much higher numbers than any new foreign MMRCA at this point (including the Rafale). Once the MK1A deliveries are complete or nearing completion, there should be little doubt that the MOD would order more in case MWF isn't ready or would arrange so that they transition to the MWF without significant disruption. But things will take time and many members here are running way ahead of where the reality actually is around types, or mission systems. MK1A hasn't yet flown, and the first squadron won't be fielded till well into 2026 (still five years away). Despite that they have 80+ firm orders in hand. Once the MWF reaches a similar point, I'm confident that the MOD will order aircraft to keep production smooth. But things will take time. MK1A will be delivered in quantity in the second half of the 2020s. Same for the MWF will be in the first half of the 2030s, and for AMCA will be mid 2035 or later.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Cain Marko »

All this is fine and dandy, but do tell why more orders for the mk1 foc standard were not placed to begin with?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by brar_w »

Cain Marko wrote:All this is fine and dandy, but do tell why more orders for the mk1 foc standard were not placed to begin with?
How does one answer that without having direct knowledge of the state of affairs at the MOD? The bottom line is that HAL has a backlog of Tejas and has an order of 80+ MK1A even ahead of the types first flight. And the MOD has put money down for more Tejas than MMRCA for this decade (no way the IAF will get more than 80 MMRCA by end of decade even if they move fast). So the notion that they aren't backing a homegrown product is false. They are and in numbers exceeding imports for a similar type. No reason to believe that this won't continue to happen as the MWF is developed, or the AMCA for that matter. Just that these will take time. Late 2020s for MWF, and mid 2030s for AMCA. They aren't going to place large orders until these are much further along. They'll buy the types that they are ready to buy and that they think serve their purpose, which is the MK1A presently. It may be MWF later once the type is demonstrated to the IAF and further along.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Cain Marko »

At a time when numbers are disastrously low and the possiblity of a 2 front war has never been higher, it is remarkable that a larger order for a meat and potatoes bird that is easily upgradeable to mk1a stds is not placed. By 2016, it was clear that foc way inevitable with only ifr and aoa expansion needed. What was stopping an additional order of 83 birds then? Why not even after foc production clearance in 2018?
Instead, they announce the ungodly need for mk1a, making an idle production line entirely possible not to mention a drip feed that hardly nurtures production capacity. Like a CIP can't be put in place and newer versions can't be added after/during an initial 123?
I'm sorry sir, but this makes no sense. Not when the birds requiring replacement are vintage compared to the mk1. And not when they keep complaining about a shortfall in numbers.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Suresh S »

*** admin delete ***
Last edited by suryag on 15 Nov 2021 11:24, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Deleted baseless nonsense
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Vivek K »

CM - I totally agree with you. The goal of armed forces (specifically IA, IAF) is to Marutize (tolerate)or Arjunize (ask for next iteration with next gen requirements) to minimize numbers of domestic products. The armed forces it seems are propagating the colonial mindset!! MK1 numbers could have been increased to build up additional squadrons.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Vivek K »

^^Great Post CM!!
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Samay »

Vivek K wrote:CM - I totally agree with you. The goal of armed forces (specifically IA, IAF) is to Marutize (tolerate)or Arjunize (ask for next iteration with next gen requirements) to minimize numbers of domestic products. The armed forces it seems are propagating the colonial mindset!! MK1 numbers could have been increased to build up additional squadrons.
That's why it would be much easier to license produce a desi version of rafale with engine ,avionics controls radar Made in India using the design blueprints etc they should have got from France. If the French had not transferred technology.
The Israelis did the same with early model of mirages in less time with success. License production or desi version will be easy too.

Testing a new design from the beginning with lots of research is a path which Bureaucracy is expected to trace because of habit of wasting time and resources of this country, while continously striving to import .

They should have at least got design, blueprints, some material knowledge, with so much money otherwise buying off the shelf while going for a European tour is anybody's task , bargaining is something else.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

Nobody shares details in License Production, Isralei France relationship was different with behind the scenes Uncle Pressure, even Saudi's License produced F-15E's in the 90s as F-15S. It achives nothing like a Home grown designed fighter.

We probably got the best License Production deal for the Su-30.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ShivS »

It’s not really about imports vs Indian manufacturing. A contract for 83 MK1As without a prototype in the air is quite a risk that the IAF is taking.

Bigger question is that given the retirement of the earliest Jaguar squadrons (early 80s vintage) and MIG 29S, there is a gap that can’t be filled by the Mk2.

That issue then meets the issue of the final IAF strength - will it be closer to 32/34 squadrons or 38/40. If it’s the former the IAF will want a very different mix.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Tanaji »

ShivS wrote:It’s not really about imports vs Indian manufacturing. A contract for 83 MK1As without a prototype in the air is quite a risk that the IAF is taking.
How is it a risk? The biggest risks in an aircraft are the engine and the airframe aerodynamics. Both have apart been proven on Mk. 1. The rest of the changes are avionics realignment, radar, SPJ and OBOGS. These are not risk items - they can be solved without structural changes. IAF took a far greater risk with Su30 in comparison.



I
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

Even Rafale in 2015 was a Huge risk since none of the India Specific Enhancements even today 6 years after contract signing have been delivered?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Aditya_V »

The best thing for IAF is to do is bulk order the MK1 LIFT, Mk 2 and keep AMCA development all going at the same time. As the Aircraft ecosystem within the Country will develop, that is the bets way for the IAf to get numbers and maintain the edge.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

The Indian airforce is not taking any risk with mk1a.

The airframe is the same the engine is well proven. It only changes the radar, the MCC, the EW set-up. In a way it is not much different from the various upgrades the IAF has performed on different imported fighters.

Having said so, it is quite perplexing to note that the IAF and RM have not come out and stated that given the immediate threat perception we need to have the aircraft by the 100s by the time the mk2 comes on stream.

All our industrial and human resource capacity should be geared towards making it happen.

But we don't observe any movement in this regard.

We are not even seeing a recognition of the enormity of threat the PRC will pose once it developed the ability to deal with the United States as an equal.

We don't even understand that that the US is not going to be a reliable military partner. If it decided to get into a G2 relationship under current or future administration's.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Aditya_V wrote:The best thing for IAF is to do is bulk order the MK1 LIFT, Mk 2 and keep AMCA development all going at the same time. As the Aircraft ecosystem within the Country will develop, that is the bets way for the IAf to get numbers and maintain the edge.

This is very important, as batch production of the aircraft will teach us how to improve our own process. Improvements in process will make our systems better and more efficient.

A lesson that we cannot learn by screwdrivergiri of imported designes.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Yagnasri »

Mango post alert:

As one of the gurus posted sometime earlier, learning the production of any high tech system is also critical; we will get that knowledge with LCA. HAL needs many orders to increase output rate per year, and IAF knows when it must retire Mig21s, Jags, 29s etc. So the timetable is all clear. What is then the issue with orders to fill the gap opening up due to retirement? I mean, LCA Mk1A can replace Mig21s and Jags as per all the reports. So order that replacement with Mk1A and then proceed with Mk2 order. Even the so-called Mk1A in an A2A configuration must be more than a match anything, including F16s pakis got.

I do not understand the idea of complaining of low numbers and asking for high cost imported units knowing very well that there is a limited budget.

I'm afraid I have to disagree that there is any significant risk involved in Mk1A.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by AkshaySG »

Yagnasri wrote:Mango post alert:

I'm afraid I have to disagree that there is any significant risk involved in Mk1A.
In regards to Mk1A the current issue is about numbers rather than any major risk to the program

We've ordered around a 120 birds which is just barely enough to replace the Bisons, The Jags replacement will require a few more squadrons.

Similarly if we want to start trending back towards the "42" squadron number, Tejas being the cheapest to own, maintain and operate will need to be in much bigger numbers than simply 6-7 squadrons.

The risk that most people are concerned about comes with Mk2/MWF which is designated as a Mig29/Mirage replacement. Since the Mk1A order at current speed won't be complete till 2030 there are chances that IAF will use the intermediate years to push for MRCA instead of MWF. Similarly they may also want to skip MWF and go straight to AMCA development.

Then there is the potential of a TEDBF/ORCA type fighter that may be useful for both IAF/IN which could get higher priority than MWF.

The best thing that we can hope for is that Mk2/MWF program shows some substantial growth before the '24 election cycle and that BJP remains in power so that this project can continue in full afterburner.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ShivS »

Well between the first flight of the. MK1A and the induction there is a 2 year gap so some fairly rigorous testing going to be done.

There are structural changes being made- not just avionics, computers and sensors.

The tolerances on the panels are now low and uniform, cabling is new, panel attachments are changed - singly all these are low risk. Doing all of them at the same time will call for testing and possible rectification. That’s part of the game.

I am not fully sure but some of the engine mountings may have been strengthened and there may be some armour added for higher survival.

I think this came across as the Mk2 being abandoned- this not true.

Given the likely induction of MMRCA or further Rafales, the IAF will have the luxury of deciding it’s force structure in 2030 or so with good options -
MK2, ORCA and AMCA. It will have the luxury of waiting a few years with a 32-34 squadron force structure to get the planes it chooses.

That’s a good thing :)
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Samay »

Pratyush wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:The best thing for IAF is to do is bulk order the MK1 LIFT, Mk 2 and keep AMCA development all going at the same time. As the Aircraft ecosystem within the Country will develop, that is the bets way for the IAf to get numbers and maintain the edge.

This is very important, as batch production of the aircraft will teach us how to improve our own process. Improvements in process will make our systems better and more efficient.

A lesson that we cannot learn by screwdrivergiri of imported designes.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Samay »

Pratyush wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:The best thing for IAF is to do is bulk order the MK1 LIFT, Mk 2 and keep AMCA development all going at the same time. As the Aircraft ecosystem within the Country will develop, that is the bets way for the IAf to get numbers and maintain the edge.

This is very important, as batch production of the aircraft will teach us how to improve our own process. Improvements in process will make our systems better and more efficient.

A lesson that we cannot learn by screwdrivergiri of imported designes.
Huge orders of fictional aircrafts would be easier than using the know how and part knowledge of proven airframe technology. There should be base to start from. Can't fight with trainer aircraft. Doers do, excusers keep dwelling excuses, and swindlers keep people confused about procurement roadmap and strategy.

When basic aim is import, keeping people guessing about local development , and minimal order on local, there can't be logical end to procurement.

Most of the procurement from private entities is by screwdrivergiri only. Not looking at what's happening as it is won't count in numbers of aircrafts.
While if they missed getting some local production technologies, shame is small term to use. A parallel production line of Rafale or desi rafale was very much a possibility and should have started by now.?
This is happening in submarines, why not aircrafts?.
Another thing is piecemeal orders keep costs high. This India specific enhancement is special in highly intelligent all knowing bureaucracy?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Samay »

Yagnasri wrote:Mango post alert:

As one of the gurus posted sometime earlier, learning the production of any high tech system is also critical; we will get that knowledge with LCA. HAL needs many orders to increase output rate per year, and IAF knows when it must retire Mig21s, Jags, 29s etc. So the timetable is all clear. What is then the issue with orders to fill the gap opening up due to retirement? I mean, LCA Mk1A can replace Mig21s and Jags as per all the reports. So order that replacement with Mk1A and then proceed with Mk2 order. Even the so-called Mk1A in an A2A configuration must be more than a match anything, including F16s pakis got.

I do not understand the idea of complaining of low numbers and asking for high cost imported units knowing very well that there is a limited budget.

I'm afraid I have to disagree that there is any significant risk involved in Mk1A.
The word is cutting edge. Rest is changa si
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Cain Marko »

Vivek K wrote:^^Great Post CM!!
Thanks Vivek. I have come to see your point esp. after no orders came through post foc. Although I do believe that a need for a few imports, still exists. In niche areas and small quantities only though.

The only justification (if it can be called that) for the lack of lca orders imvho is trepidation caused by the sanction prone engines.

Frankly this issue could have been mitigated ages ago if they had decided on a bigger bird or twin engined version when they found that the lca was low on power requirements. I don't see why the existing Kaveri wouldn't have worked in such a configuration. Iirc the Kaveri is more or less
similar to the original rd33. The bird would've been totally homegrown, would've satisfied newer strategic requirements for longer ranged, more capable mrca numbers, provided the navy with an excellent deck based fighter and created an eco/job system churning out 500 birds in the next 2 decades.

The lack of foresight is appalling.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:Tejas Mk2: CDR has been completed and fabrication has begun
https://chimniii.com/news/Defence/Defen ... begun.html
07 Nov 2021
https://twitter.com/writetake/status/14 ... 16578?s=20 ---> Can confirm that Critical Design Review (CDR) for LCA AF Mk2 has been completed. This paves way for realization of aircraft (metal cutting, parts manufacturing, assemblies & sub-assemblies.) Top brains from IAF + ADA + HAL + DRDO + experts part of review. Roll out 2022 & first flight 2023?

Image
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Bala Vignesh »

Is that a twin rail launcher i am seeing on the outboard hardpoint??
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by nachiket »

Bala Vignesh wrote:Is that a twin rail launcher i am seeing on the outboard hardpoint??
It has been shown in the Aero-India models as well earlier.

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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/146 ... 80705?s=20 ---> The first Tejas Mk2 prototype can be fabricated only when the money for the same is released. It cannot be built from legacy disbursements. Why doesn't somebody ask whether that has been done?
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Vivek K »

With orders for LCH not released and HAL building 15 from its own pocket, they need funding support to help support the nation. Funds for MK2 fabrication should be released ASAP.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ArjunPandit »

Vivek K wrote:With orders for LCH not released and HAL building 15 from its own pocket, they need funding support to help support the nation. Funds for MK2 fabrication should be released ASAP.
HAL should threaten to sell it to pk, at least it will have support of congress. Jokes aside, is there anything from GOI that stops HAL to raise money from markets ..there is a lot of appetite in markets ...
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ramana »

Let's not troll based on bokwas.
Mk2 will be funded as needed.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/146 ... 80705?s=20 ---> The first Tejas Mk2 prototype can be fabricated only when the money for the same is released. It cannot be built from legacy disbursements. Why doesn't somebody ask whether that has been done?
This is false framing I am afraid.

The funding for prototypes can be done post the CDR.

The fact that CDR was done. Presumably the IAF didn't ask for significant alterations to the aircraft. Should tell people that IAF is 100% on board with the design as is.

7 , 17 or 70 squadrons is a matter of internal deliberations for the IAF.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/146 ... 80705?s=20 ---> The first Tejas Mk2 prototype can be fabricated only when the money for the same is released. It cannot be built from legacy disbursements. Why doesn't somebody ask whether that has been done?
Hasn't HAL officially stated they've commenced production of the MK.2? I
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by ashishvikas »

Boon for Indian industries waiting in wings of LCA Mark II
Cutting-edge technology and more indigenisation - This is the mandate of the LCA Tejas AF Mark 2 project which completed its Critical Design Review (CDR) this week. The long-awaited CDR, which was supposed to happen in July, was finally completed on November 15, with up to 20 sub-systems being individually cleared by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Metal cutting will soon start. The acquisition of components will start. In addition, jigs and fixtures will be set up. We are aiming for a rollout in December 2022, although the aircraft will not be moved and a first flight tentatively is fixed for the end of 2023.
https://www.deccanherald.com/business/t ... 53378.html
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by kit »

ramana wrote:Let's not troll based on bokwas.
Mk2 will be funded as needed.
+1
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by RishiChatterjee »

Some of the trial renders by Kuntal..

<post edited >
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Rakesh »

RishiChatterjee wrote:Some of the trial renders by Kuntal..
Please provide links to pictures when posting.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by Avinandan »

Questions about conformal hardpoints benefits and its feasibility in implementing for current and future aircrafts is been asked in noob thread.
Gurus kindly address over there.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by basant »

Nowhere In The World Is Such A Commitment Of 450 Aircraft And This Depicts IAF's Plan For Capability Building: IAF Chief VR Chaudhari
Manish K Jha: A look at the geopolitics and global conflicts gives the clear indication that aerial dimension of the warfare has established unprecedented superiority. How does IAF embrace such shift in terms of evolving threats and capability?

CAS: IAF is prepared for any conflict, conventional or otherwise. Our focus remains on building operational capability against prevailing threats. The IAF CONOPS (Concept of Operations), policies, force structure and operational training are designed to handle all envisaged and emerging threats on any front.

IAF has currently planned for 83 LCA, 70 HTT-40, two Sqns of AMCA Mk-I and five Sqns of AMCA MK-II. Additionally, the order for LCH and other developments in the helicopter fleet will provide for 400/450 aircraft.
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Re: Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

Post by basant »

If IAF changes its plans with the change of ACM, we are in danger from within than from external threats.
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